For those of you who hire/read resumes

[Shy Tall Guy]

I have conducted a lot of interviews in my career, and I have read hundreds, if not thousands of resumes. I have had varying levels of influence on whether someone I interviewed was hired - from having a veto/approval say, to just voicing approval or disapproval.

Yesterday I went into our local employment office to get another eye on my resume, to see if there was any way it could be improved. Beyond bold facing a few things, and spelling out one or two others, it remained the same.

Tonight I submitted my resume to a number of employers. About half of them required cut and pasting the text of the resume into a form, the other half allowed me to send my resume via an attached Word document.

So, in effect, all of that fancy formatting, etc. was wasted on half these employers.

I have a question of you guys who read and evaluate resumes, especially tech resumes:

Does it really matter how it is formatted - with all the job titles bold faced for instance - or is a decent resume good enough?

I know it probably helps to have certain things stand out, but mostly I look for what I look for: The skills and experience the job needs. I do notice a few other things like whether the person has jumped from one job to another every six months (it used to be every 2 years, but in the tech sector going from job to job every 2 years is now the norm), and other things, but the formatting I don't care that much about.

The resume could be in just flat text, and as long as it isn't one big run on sentence, and it makes sense, then I will get what I want from it.

How about you?

 

[Cheyenne]

I like resumes that give me company name, dates worked there, title, and accomplishments in chronological order. I dislike the ones that give me a general list of skill sets, and then later on a list of companies where the person has worked. I want to see the order of what you have done and when you did it. I also don't want to see one that is more than 2 pages long. Very few people are so important that their work history won't fit nicely on two pages.

As long as I can read the resume and it doesn't have spelling errors, I don't care so much about the format. Bolding, margins, etc. all serve to make resumes easier to read. But I'll find the info I need if it is there in a logical order.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

I like resumes that give me company name, dates worked there, title, and accomplishments in chronological order. I dislike the ones that give me a general list of skill sets, and then later on a list of companies where the person has worked.

Well then you would dislike mine because that is what I did; I put all my skills first, then work history. One of the reasons I did that is because often a resume goes through several non-technical hands before it gets to the people who make the hiring decisions.

These non-tech people (recruiters, HR people) generally don't know how to look through a resume and pick out whether a person matches the job reqs. or not, and if the don't see the buzzwords they are looking for (Java, C++, JDBC, SQL, etc.) right up front and not mixed in a sentence describing what I did, then they pass my resume on to the circular file.

I think many tech people do too; I prefer to see the buzz words first, but since I am often in the third tier (at least 2 people see the resume before it gets to me) then I am willing to take more than 30 seconds to look over a resume.

I want to see the order of what you have done and when you did it. I also don't want to see one that is more than 2 pages long. Very few people are so important that their work history won't fit nicely on two pages.

My work history alone could take up 2 pages if I included all of it back to the beginning (which I don't - no one wants to know what I did before I left college). If I wished, my pertinent work history alone could take up 2 pages as a very short description of what I did at each job takes up one page.

Right now I am working on putting up a website with my resume on it. There will be several different forms of the resume:

1) A straight text only form (with formatting) that can be printed.

2) A version of #1 that has hyper links built in so a person can click on various parts of the resume to get more detail about the company I worked for, the technology I worked with, and what I did.

I am also working on some code examples, a FAQ, and some white papers so people can see what I know and think about various software devo issues.

 

[Astro]

I myself would love to know what makes a good CV, I am filling out job applications now (2 on the desk)!

Do u pay more attention to the front of an application (jobs, education) or the last questions: the ones which basicly mean 'Why u should give me this job' ?

 

[MissTaken]

I like a resume that is is brief and to the point.

Education
Employment History
Volunteer Work: if it is relevant, which in human services can be

Then a brief scenario concerning additional skills: i.e. computer proficiency, language etc.

The rest can be discussed at an interview.

I do like Bold print on heavy paper. It helps me to sort out the keepers from a large pile of wannabes.

However, the best employee I ever hired, very apologitically had hand written his work experience on lined paper and delivered it to me personally. (He was in the process of moving, but wanted to work with us so badly he thought getting his name in would be enough. It sure was!)

 

[Bs]

I worked with a National Sales Mgr. one time that told me, just once he would love to see somebody send him a resume that said I would be the best damn salesman your company every hired. Said that would gurantee that person an interview.


If I find myself looking again someday, then you can bet I'll try it.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

I myself would love to know what makes a good CV, I am filling out job applications now (2 on the desk)!

Do u pay more attention to the front of an application (jobs, education) or the last questions: the ones which basicly mean 'Why u should give me this job' ?

I do not work at places that accept applications, or at least I never see them. Applications in my line of work are not really done any more - mostly we work from resumes. The only time applications may come into play are whe the company is ready to hire and they need specific info for a background check or for their bureaucracy.

What I look for on resumes is anything relevant to the job. Generally people put their best foot forward first; if you only have education that is relevant to the job, and your work history is irrelevant, then put your education first. Or vice versa if your education is less relevant than your work history - as mine is (I have a Electronics Engineering degree that is 15 years old, most people don't care about that).

In a tech field (such as software engineering or network admin, or even welding or a car mechanic) where the tech you know is everything, having the tech up front and first is going to get the attention and get you to the people who decide whether to interview you or not. If a recruiter or HR person does not see the buzzwords they are looking for on the first page, they are not going dig through the text of your job history to find them, and you won't get interviewed.

OTOH, if you are a biz admin person, or some other non-tech field, job experience, who you worked for and what you did might need to come first. It depends on your field of expertise and where your strengths lay.

Decent formatting, spelling and grammar are important.

This is basically what the body of the first page of my resume looks like:

SKILLS & INTERESTS
Software Engineering:

Languages & APIs:

· Java (2+ years); JDK, JFC, Swing, Beans, JUnit, CodeWarrior, JLex, CUP, JProbe, InstallAnywhere, ServletExec, JDBC.

· C++ (1 yr.); STL, DevStudio, Symantec C++, CodeBase, Crystal Reports.

· Object Pascal (4 years); Borland Pascal, Object Pro, Asynch Pro, SkipJack.

Methodologies and tools:

· Design/Anti-Patterns; Gang of 4/5

· Use Cases

· JAD

· PACT (Parallel Architecture for Component Testing)

· Structure Builder/UML

· Software Quality Assurance, ISO-9000

Operating Systems:

· Windows NT/2000, DOS

· MacOS

Other:

· Localization & Internationalization.

· Interested in JINI, Internet Printing Protocol, RF wireless, real-time and embedded operating systems.

· Data communications; WAN, packet-switching networks, link, network & system level protocols.

 

[Guru]

 

[Cheyenne]

STG: You left out the most important line of mine when you quoted me:

"I want to see the order of what you have done and when you did it."

A list of skills/experience isn't enough in my book. It matters to me if you did something at a company the size of Coke or the size of the local mom and pop shop down on the corner. Experience isn't equivalent between companies. When you did something is also important to me. A skill listed that is critical to the position means more to me if you have developed it recently than if you got that skill 20 years ago in a job you held for a short period of time. Without knowing which skill you developed at which company or when you got it, I am likely to toss your resume into the "no" pile if I am doing the screening.

But, like you said, I don't generally do that level of screening anymore. By the time I meet someone, they have already been interviewed by the Human Resources VP and are on a short list of potential candidates for the job I have open.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Re: Re: For those of you who hire/read resumes

Some employers use automated scanning software that picks out keywords to cull the good resumes from the ones that are not qualified at all. That is probably why they require you to paste it into a form.

I don't mind that, but I think the really good ones are the ones that allow you to paste in all that stuff *and* allow you to attach your resume as a Word doc file. There are a few that do that. And, for what it is worth, they could do the same thing with a Word doc.

I really don't mind it either way that much - I am more of a contant than style guy.

I do think it is an interesting coment on how looking for a job has changed and keeps chaning; when I got out of college my father thought I was being lazy because I didn't go around, from employer to employer, filling out applications and trying to get an on the spot interview with somebody - or at least call them up and beg for an interview. I sent out resumes via snail mail (it was 16 years ago), with a cover letter.

In his day that was they way you did it; you went and camped on their doorstep to get a job. Nowadays, and probably for quite some time, for most salaried jobs you send in a resume, and if you make a nuisance of yourself by calling, or *shudder* showing up without an appt., you will be turned away and your resume filed in the trash. Keep showing up and they might get a restraining order.

Now most employers prefer emailed resumes, and they seem to be moving towards canned entry forms. One site I went to last night had some third party software (rezlogic?) that took my info and put it into their database. I could not apply for more than one job because once my resume was in it wouldn't accept it for another one - not very user friendly. In a way, that is kind of harking back to the days of filling out applications.

We also have people putting their resumes online and advertising themselves.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

STG: You left out the most important line of mine when you quoted me:

"I want to see the order of what you have done and when you did it."

A list of skills/experience isn't enough in my book. It matters to me if you did something at a company the size of Coke or the size of the local mom and pop shop down on the corner. Experience isn't equivalent between companies. When you did something is also important to me.

Well, I put my work experience in chrono order, and I tie it into my listed skills - especially the really big things they look for (Java, C++), but my at the front, when I list my skills, I list them in order of strength in the skill and chrono order; notice that I have Java, then C++, then Object Pascal. I am strongest in Java, and if you look at that line and go through the list, those are how I list those skills too; I know the JDK API a lot better than I do the JDBC API.

As for where I learned them; in the tech sector, where you learned something is a lot less important than what you know. Indeed, it kind of works in reverse; if someone comes to me from Microsoft and says they know Java, I am going to believe them less than if they say they came from some failed ten person dot.com, (in fact, some of the worse software engineers I have interviewed have come from MS, people who claimed to know C++, but were just using a C++ compiler to compile C code and knew nothing about OOP).

Now if they came from Sun then I would pay attention - but mostly it is not about size, or who you know, but *what* you know in the tech sector, and some of the best people I know in the field taught themselves off the job.

So, it just depends on the sector; I can see biz admin, sales, marketing, etc., having a great deal to do with which company they worked at, but in my field that is very much secondary unless the company is well known for its innovation, and even that can vary from division to division (IBM is a great innovator in Java, but only if you work in particular divisions).

 

[privy2u]

Hiya Tall Guy - My experience with resumes' in the news print business is limited. I had read stories or seen the photography of almost all of the prefessionals I hired long before I read a resume'.
Of those I wasn't familiar with something along the lines described by Cheyenne held my attention the longest.

In my profession it is normal to see a cover sheet, followed by a one page work/job history in formal format and a third page describing themselves, their previous work experiences and responsibilites and lastly why they are the perfect choice for the position.

Every Editor or publisher I have ever met read the last page first!


privy (and I still can't spell chit!)

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Hiya Tall Guy - My experience with resumes' in the news print business is limited. I had read stories or seen the photography of almost all of the prefessionals I hired long before I read a resume'.

Well, each field is quite different. In the tech field it is the tech jargon buzzwords that get you an interview, in marketing/sales/management, it is probably who you know and who you worked for, as much as what you did, in the publishing industry or as an artist, it is probably examples of your work.

In my field people often ask for examples of our work and that is something that can make the difference. It is why I am working on a little project to demonstrate my C++ skills.

However, for my field, the interview is the primary decider; you can have a great resume, good examples of work, but if you screw up some simple questions then all of that other stuff is thrown into doubt. It is so easy to fake all the rest by plagarizing or exagerrating, but it is hard to fake verbal answers if you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Calamity Jane]

I don't read resumes for hiring purposes, but I do create them for people on a fairly regular basis. The style of the resume varies greatly depending on the intended field.

The most important things to the employers that I've spoken to are length (no one wants to read a 5 page resume) and order of information. In my resume, I generally put my past job titles/locations in bold print and my job duties as a bulleted list. I don't use paragraphs, I don't have a 'career objective' on it, and I list software used in it's own section.

Most employers have a very set idea of the skills/experience that they require. If they have to read through a long or wordy resume to get to the information, they're not likely to even call you in for an interview.

Other things to note. If you're sending in a hard copy of your resume for a field that isn't particularly creative, go with white 100% cotton paper. Make sure the watermark is right side up on the page, fold it properly, or mail it in a large envelope so that no folding is required. I've known several HR types that have thrown out resumes without reading them, simply because they didn't follow these guidelines.

STG -- if you want, you can email me your resume, with or without your personal information on it, and I'll take a look at it.

 

[MidnightAngel]

STG- I've hired for several different types of companies. To me, the formatting of a resume is not at all important as long as the information is presented in a readable manner.

The main things that will get a resume tossed out to me are spelling/grammer errors and "obvious bullshit". By "obvious bullshit" I mean that I've seen resumes that were VERY obviously "padded" to the point of unbelievable.

One last point: I disagree with Cheyenne that developing a skill at a "mom and pop" company isn't as good as developing the same skill at a larger company. My first two jobs were at small privately-owned companies. If anything, those positions were much more challenging. I have worked as an accountant for the Dept of Defense and now a large corporation.....and those jobs actually require less knowledge/effort than a small company (in my opinion), because there are so many other people in a corporation to back you up if you need help.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

The main things that will get a resume tossed out to me are spelling/grammer errors and "obvious bullshit". By "obvious bullshit" I mean that I've seen resumes that were VERY obviously "padded" to the point of unbelievable.

Well, a person does have to sell themselves, but yeah I've seen that too; an example is people who claim they can "program" because they wrote an Excel or Word Macro from hand.

Things like that might get you past a really stupid HR/recruiter, but if they waste my time in an interview with such crap they certainly are not going to get hired.

One last point: I disagree with Cheyenne that developing a skill at a "mom and pop" company isn't as good as deveoping the same skill at a larger company.

It depends on the job and what the employer is looking for; running a 10 person company is probably not going to qualify someone to run a 500 person division/company. Something a lot of CEOs learn when they start their own companies, and then have to hire someone to run it for them.

But for my field, the size of the company matters little, and in fact can work against you.

PCG, I am fairly happy with my resume; my interest was mostly academic. Right now I am concentrating on getting a website up - but thanks for the offer.

 

[Cheyenne]

One last point: I disagree with Cheyenne that developing a skill at a "mom and pop" company isn't as good as developing the same skill at a larger company. My first two jobs were at small privately-owned companies. If anything, those positions were much more challenging. I have worked as an accountant for the Dept of Defense and now a large corporation.....and those jobs actually require less knowledge/effort than a small company (in my opinion), because there are so many other people in a corporation to back you up if you need help.

Where did I say that? What I really said was "Experience isn't equivalent between companies." Please quote me correctly if you want to disagree with me.

The experience ISN'T the same between companies. BUT, it depends on the skillset I'm looking for. If I'm at a small company looking for a staff accountant, I'll hire someone who has been an accountant in a small company where they have had to do everything rather than someone from a large company. If I'm hiring someone to do consolidations for a $1 billion plus company with multiple operating subsidiaries, I'm going for someone who is a CPA with consolidations experience. A mom and pop shop accountant would get eaten alive in that job inside of half a day.
BUT, both resumes from could say they did "monthly close" at their previous job. Unless I know the size and kind of company the person did "monthly close" for, I don't know if they fit the small company staff accountant spot or the large company consolidations spot. The experience is different, not necessarily better.

 

[miles]

stg

I've hired lots of people and read thousands of resumes.

The objective of a resume is to get an interview, not get a job. Once you get the interview you can discuss your skills.

A resume is an advertisement which should say "these are the reasons you want to interview me," and not "these are the things I can do." Almost everyone's resume reads like a job description - in other words, boring. If 100 people submit resumes and all have the same experience, guess who gets the interview? It's the people who list their accomplishments, not their skills. It's not what you know, it's what you accomplished with your knowledge. I've recruited lots of technical people and rewritten dozens of resumes. Believe me, how you advertise yourself does make a difference.

"Stupid HR Recruiters" are given job specs by the much more intelligent and people-skilled technical weenies. Recruiters don't have to know what C+ is, or does, they look for keywords. When this stupid Employment Manager came across a resume that listed skills first rather than the accepted chronological resume, it went right in the trash. Most recruiters are understaffed and won't spend more than 15 seconds trying to figure out if the candidate has the skill set and experience required by the hiring manager. Make it easy on the recruiter and seperate your resume from the others.

There are plenty of websites with good advice on resume writing.
It's a very tough market right now, and you need all the ammo you can find. Good luck.