Food For Thought

[Shadowsdream]

Hello to you who I have not spoken to for some time...~~smile~~ nice to see you all posting some interesting subjects...but I digress!

In My day to day BDSM world I have been noticing a growing pheromone...sub stealing! Also have been privy to Doms going behind the backs of their primary subs looking for greener or easier pastures.

The interesting thing is that none of them are quiet about it as they seem to feel the need for approval of their friends before publicly breaking up an ongoing relationship that they wish to replace.

Without exception (in My real world) these subs and Doms have lost all credibility and invites to the usual inner circle events due to this lack of integrity. The new potential for a relationship comes over shadowed with dishonesty and has little hope of success especially when the new inductee discovers that the "inner circle" they thought would come with the new sub/Dom disappears.

The question that keeps coming to mind for Me is how much is one prepared to lose for ego.

Yes I said ego, as that is the motivation as I have seen it in the situations I have described.

Anyone care to begin a conversation?

 

[graceanne]

Hello to you who I have not spoken to for some time...~~smile~~ nice to see you all posting some interesting subjects...but I digress!

In My day to day BDSM world I have been noticing a growing pheromone...sub stealing! Also have been privy to Doms going behind the backs of their primary subs looking for greener or easier pastures.

The interesting thing is that none of them are quiet about it as they seem to feel the need for approval of their friends before publicly breaking up an ongoing relationship that they wish to replace.

Without exception (in My real world) these subs and Doms have lost all credibility and invites to the usual inner circle events due to this lack of integrity. The new potential for a relationship comes over shadowed with dishonesty and has little hope of success especially when the new inductee discovers that the "inner circle" they thought would come with the new sub/Dom disappears.

The question that keeps coming to mind for Me is how much is one prepared to lose for ego.

Yes I said ego, as that is the motivation as I have seen it in the situations I have described.

Anyone care to begin a conversation?

Actually I've got a friend who just got out of this situation. She was with her master, who gave her permission to play with another master. The other master waited till she was in sub space and started grilling her 'Do you want me to be your master, do you want me to be your master?' She said, yes, then was so embarrassed and felt so bad she asked her master to be released. He finally realized something weird was going on, and told her that NO he would not release her, and that she was HIS. She broke down, told him what had happened. She's been punished, and the 'relationship' with the other 'dom' is over. I'm just releaved it worked out like it did.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Actually I've got a friend who just got out of this situation. She was with her master, who gave her permission to play with another master. The other master waited till she was in sub space and started grilling her 'Do you want me to be your master, do you want me to be your master?' She said, yes, then was so embarrassed and felt so bad she asked her master to be released. He finally realized something weird was going on, and told her that NO he would not release her, and that she was HIS. She broke down, told him what had happened. She's been punished, and the 'relationship' with the other 'dom' is over. I'm just releaved it worked out like it did.

Hello graceanne

Thank you for beginning the conversation with Me.

It is a shame that advantage is taken when in play or subspace. There is an extra unreality during those times that increases the potential for big mistakes. One of which is dishonoring the existing relationship past and present.

I hope your friend and her Master will be able to put this moment behind them and perhaps even the other "Master" will feel chastised.

 

[graceanne]

Hello graceanne

Thank you for beginning the conversation with Me.

It is a shame that advantage is taken when in play or subspace. There is an extra unreality during those times that increases the potential for big mistakes. One of which is dishonoring the existing relationship past and present.

I hope your friend and her Master will be able to put this moment behind them and perhaps even the other "Master" will feel chastised.

I think that they are. She won't be playing when he's not present ever again. Unfortunately the other 'master' isn't chastised at all. He keeps sending pics and things like that to my friends Master, hoping to break them up. It's not gonna work my friend came completely clean with her Master and she's been forgiven.

Plus, he (her master) knows that he made a few mistakes too. He knows how susceptible she is, but he felt that to tell her no was being selfish. That won't be happening again, especially with a 'Master' he doesn't know very well.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

.....
In My day to day BDSM world I have been noticing a growing pheromone...sub stealing! Also have been privy to Doms going behind the backs of their primary subs looking for greener or easier pastures.

Good afternoon, Shadowsdream!

*grins* I like your choice of wording here... pheromone. From a research paper on the topic of pheromones - "Odours used to send messages between individuals of the same species are called pheromones." And while perhaps inadvertent, it's use here is so very appropriate. Sub stealing stinks! And sub stealing certainly sends a message to all involved about the character and integrity of the one doing the stealing (as well as the one being "stolen"), and it usually involves the spreading of much manure that creates a stench.

Bravo! Even if the word choice was unintended.

Actually this isn't a "growing phenomenon" cheating has been a part of human activity since the beginning of recorded history, and probably before. What's changed is your awareness of it going on around you, or perhaps your circle of contacts has widened so that you are being exposed to it more.

Yes ego can play a large part in it. But other factors may also be at play. Poor communication between partners. Needs perhaps are not being met. Unrealistic expectations by one or both parties going into the relationship lead to disappointment and dis-satisfaction. Incompatible goals and needs. And the list could go on.

Sometimes the blame can be placed solely on one person for example, he promises her that they will have a monogamous relationship. But he actually desires a harem and so steps out on her. He lied, he's cheating.

But on the flip side, if he's stated up front he wanted a poly or open relationship and she thinks she can keep him coralled in a mongamous relatioship, that's a case of unreasonable expectations (or incompatible goals. Or both!). Someone wants or expects something the other party isn't prepared or able to give.

Trying to steal someone's partner stinks! But consider this:

If the relationship was not solid enough to withstand the attempt (since the one being "stolen" must, infact, go along with the "stealing"), is it a relationship that would have lasted, anway?

To my way of thinking, if my submissive were to be "stolen", she went along with it. And therefore was not worth keeping. And the Dom who stole her would be welcome to her. If she was stolen once, she can and probably will be, stolen again. And if he stole from Me, he'll steal from someone else again, eventually. They will both find the karmic wheel running over them at some point.

I know, because I've been there, done that, got the karma treadmarks up and down my back because of it. *smiles wryly* I wasn't "sub stealing" but I _was_ cheating on my SO at the time. I am fortunate in that I _learned_ from my experience and will never do it again. It was a painful lesson that cost me terribly. The relationship that I once had will never be again.

The up side of that is that my girl knows she need never worry about me cheating on her. Our relationship is sexually monogamous, SM play open, D/s poly-capable.... *grins and chuckles* Let's just say that our needs, desires, and expectations were thoroughly discussed for a long time before we took the step of collaring. But more about that for another thread.

Great topic starter. I hope others share their thoughts too!

 

[RJMasters]

Hello SD very nice to see you again. It has been sometime.

The topic you have chosen to discuss here, is and has been a rampant online problem for at least 7 years that I have been online.

I know that you are speaking strictly real life, however I was wondering if perhaps there is a surge-ance of online Doms or Dommes who have found their way into RL and is now reaching the point where their presence is felt? It is typical that online Doms and Dommes do not have any real or traditional foundations (teaching or training) other than what they have learned from websites.

Or perhaps it is just a sign of the times, where drawing moral absolutes are taboo. It is easy not live up to any code of ethics or take responsibility when everything is relative.

It is why I continue to teach, "strength of character" to any who are online that ask me, what makes a good Dom or Domme. I guess that goes for anyone in life really, but specifically in this case to the topic you have started.

The problem as I see it the romantic role which is put forth online of what a Dom or Domme is, and those who enter and learn the lifestyle online, seem more interested in fitting that image, rather than being who they are. I guess mostly because they haven't taken the time to examine who they are carefully, but are heady with notions from websites of seeking power and control. This fosters an attitude of "objectifying" others and reaches higher elevations of narcissism.

Maybe it has nothing to do with online entering the RL circle, however the acts you mentions definitely speaks of no moral foundation and the objectifying people.

The relation of "Getting another notch on the belt" goes part and parcel here with what you see as an ego problem. It is why submissives should take care to select a Dom or Domme who takes confidence in themselves rather than I the possessions they own, and to the narcissist mind, that would include submissives.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I see all of this as a form of Tops Disease.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

I see all of this as a form of Tops Disease.

Negative.

A top has some sense of self-control.

Shadowsdream has described a simple case of cranial infarction via rectal envelopment.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Only for You, Ma'am, will I post...

...Without exception (in My real world) these subs and Doms have lost all credibility and invites to the usual inner circle events due to this lack of integrity. The new potential for a relationship comes over shadowed with dishonesty and has little hope of success especially when the new inductee discovers that the "inner circle" they thought would come with the new sub/Dom disappears.QUOTE]

For those who show a lack of integrity and honesty, their peers do disappear. It's a disappointment when someone one thinks he knows, turns out to be something entirely different.

...The question that keeps coming to mind for Me is how much is one prepared to lose for ego.

Yes I said ego, as that is the motivation as I have seen it in the situations I have described...

I have a very healthy ego as does any submissive who knows her self worth. The question is whether she can put her ego aside in the presence and under the instruction and guidance of her Dom. (There are titles for 'submissives' who can't do that and which I won't mention, as everyone knows what they are.)

Any Dom who wants an ego-less submissive, is not a Dom I would be interested in having a relationship with. A submissive believes in her own value and selfworth and is able to convey that to everyone around her. I also happen to think it makes her much sexier and much more attractive. ;-) In turn, she attracts Dominants who feel the same way about themselves... or so it has been in my experience, at least.

 

[Caitlynne]

Oh, M'am, it is so good to see [and read] you again. You've been missed.

 

[Kajira Callista]

without honesty...there is nothing.
(KC's thought of the week)

 

[caela]

Being new to the BDSM realm in anything but an ol setting I'm glad to say I haven't seen this much. I have however seen similar interaction in the vanilla couple around me and my question is always the same..."why"? If you want out of a relationship isn't it easier to simply be up front with your SO, explain that you are leaving and why, and go? Instead people sneak around behind each others backs creating drama and chaos.

 

[esclave_PP]

I think that they are. She won't be playing when he's not present ever again. Unfortunately the other 'master' isn't chastised at all. He keeps sending pics and things like that to my friends Master, hoping to break them up. It's not gonna work my friend came completely clean with her Master and she's been forgiven.

Plus, he (her master) knows that he made a few mistakes too. He knows how susceptible she is, but he felt that to tell her no was being selfish. That won't be happening again, especially with a 'Master' he doesn't know very well.

Yep, this was me. I've been with Master all week (we live about 4 hours apart and go back and forth to be with each other now). Master was wonderful. I felt so ashamed of what I did, that I had begged release, because I couldn't face what I did. When he finally called me and said, "You are Mine, you will always be mine, I am not letting you go..." it shocked and woke me up, and I thought of course I am. Master helped pull my head out of my ass, and it feels so good to be back where I belong. You can click on my link to my blog if you like to read more. Love and time heal so much.

 

[FurryFury]

Great to see you again Shadowsdream, I've missed your thoughts and conversations on this board lately.

I have no experience with the real life social world of BDSM. So I wouldn't know about Dom or sub stealing but in my book, disloyalty and dishonesty is pretty high on my list of undesirable traits in a person.

That being said, Malcah_Ms, I have sympathy for what you have been through. It seems to me this was not really your fault. *hugs*

Of course you don't ever like to say no! Of course you would be easily influenced that way. The problem as I see it, was that you naturally, because of your own nature, blamed yourself and kept it for a time a secret. I too would have blamed myself because I am just like that. The only difference is that I would not keep a secret like that. I am unable to do so now. I was forced to keep too many secrets for too long and now I'm refuse to, it makes me perhaps too open. Anyway, I'm glad you worked it out with the one you truly want to be with. I feel for you. From what I can tell you are a great person.

Fury

 

[catalina_francisco]

Have to agree with much of what you have said Shadowsdream. I think a lot of it is driven by ego, and perhaps a little (or lot of) insecurity in trusting their own judgement in the first place, thus feeling perhaps they could do better. For me, if the behaviour shows an inability to maintain a commitment in an open and honest way, and means dishonesty and secretiveness become accepted, there can be no trust or desire to commit to such a person in any way, most of all D/s.

Catalina

 

[PhoenixPrime01]

malcha ms Master and Owner:

Without going into her personal details that effected what she did and the how it occured, which Graceanne already described well enough in her post, let me say this...

My slave is very self confident in her real time (rt) business dealings,but she is also very submissive in personal relations.
Her situation at the time made me think that allowing her to play with this alleged "master" would be a good thing for her. Now I know it wasn't and it won't be allowed again, as already stated above.
We've talked all of what transpired on both of our parts through, she's been punished for her transgression and she's been forgiven... this one time only, a repeat will mean her total ejection from my life.
Now the situation she had been dealing with at the time has been resolved and from now on we will be together as much as possible.

This wannabe took complete and unfair advantage of malcah in a very vulnerable situation, not something any Master worth the title would ever consider doing... especially when it was known that she was already owned.
Then, to try to consolidate his hold on her, he had his current little one "birddog" her, become her friend to help his 'hold' on malcah.

A little one can transgress, but in my opinion it's up to the Dom/Domme as to whether the transgression is egregous enough to warrant severing the relationship. This time it wasn't as it was also partially my fault for allowing the chance for it to happen in the first place.

The true culprit was the wannabe who tried his best to steal her away. I wish I could punish him more than I had to my malcah, but of course that won't happen so I'll leave it up to the Fates and his karma to take care of him.

SO, thanks for a great thread and discussion.

PP

 

[esclave_PP]

Great to see you again Shadowsdream, I've missed your thoughts and conversations on this board lately.

I have no experience with the real life social world of BDSM. So I wouldn't know about Dom or sub stealing but in my book, disloyalty and dishonesty is pretty high on my list of undesirable traits in a person.

That being said, Malcah_Ms, I have sympathy for what you have been through. It seems to me this was not really your fault. *hugs*

Of course you don't ever like to say no! Of course you would be easily influenced that way. The problem as I see it, was that you naturally, because of your own nature, blamed yourself and kept it for a time a secret. I too would have blamed myself because I am just like that. The only difference is that I would not keep a secret like that. I am unable to do so now. I was forced to keep too many secrets for too long and now I'm refuse to, it makes me perhaps too open. Anyway, I'm glad you worked it out with the one you truly want to be with. I feel for you. From what I can tell you are a great person.

Fury

Oh gosh, I am just me. Thank you though, it was a horrible situation, one I never ever want to be in again. I didn't want to keep it from Master, just the opposite. I didn't know how to even broach (sp?) the subject. I didn't know where to begin. It was as if I had been seduced by a svengali -- this craphead (the wannabe) tried to forbid me to talk to Master, and I couldn't do that and honestly I am not the type of slave to disobey. I was in bad shape mentally. Thank god Master and I kept in touch.

But, I was so ashamed, so disgusted with what I allowed to happen that I guess I ended up punishing myself, thinking that I no longer deserved Master. But when I got that phone call from Master, I realized that it was He who is in charge of punishing my transgression, so I high-tailed it to Him, and well, things are as they should be. And I have a nice marbled ass to remind me.

 

[graceanne]

I think the blame lies in both people, but most of it in the other 'master'. *hugs* I think that a lot was learned by both Malcah and her master, and I think that all that is in the past.

The reason I brought it up was it was a serious and obvious case of sub stealing. He took advantage of her in a vulnerable situation. He knew that she was owned, and that she wasn't free, and yet he still asked her a question that was seriously out of line.

I'm just so relieved that things worked out and malcah's back with phoenixprime.

 

[Softouch911]

Shadowsdream! So very good to see you once again --

As with any relationship, ours are fragile and often on shaky grounds ... sometimes "commitments" are not firm, nor thought out adequately, nor meant as sincerely by both parties. These are fertile pickings for the unscrupulous and the cheaters who count scalps and feed their own hungry egos. It's too bad there isn't a code and an enforcement system.

Some of the violations, such as what happened to Malcah, border on the criminal. Does her situation remind anyone else of "date rape"? Too bad civil authorities wouldn't understand that violation.

 

[Shadowsdream]

I certainly have some catching up to do with this conversation I began. I am going to be efficient so that My picture doesn't run down an entire page! Please be patient with a long read...

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graceanne ~ Sometimes lessons that are learned the hard way are never forgotten on both sides of the whip.

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Evil Geoff...hello and welcome to the conversation. We have not spent time in conversation before if I remember correctly but I do look forward to getting to know you. Thank You for adding so much thought to the subject at hand...

Pheromone...~~grin~~ wrote itself but seems to be very appropriate..it was a spell check bit of wierdness that I didn't catch. Thank You for digging up its meaning and sharing it here. I think that is one word that belongs in My world.

No My awareness hasn't changed nor My world widened particularly. It has been a large pallette for years. Cheating seems to simplify what My intent was to convey. For Me it boils down to integrity. The reason I am seeing more of it is that those participating in this "new" behaviour is that several are seeking My approval in advance of going public. If I receive it well perhaps these new relationships built on the back of ones about to be ended will be accepted and lauded.

I am s stickler for integrity but did not wish to title the thread so in case Lance was close by..as I recall He always liked to ask why all of My subjects boiled down to just a few topics... ~grin~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

RJ so nice to see you posting again My friend!...Actually it is the online factor that is allowing easier access to sub stealing and Dom/me hopping.

The situations that have primarily set off this discussion for Me are being "felt" out online with various types of manipulation in a safe from obvious rejection mode.

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Joe Schmoe ~~hello~~

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AngelicAssassin so nice to have You join the conversation..as always such a simple sentence of few words that says so much. As always a pleasure.

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A Desert Rose ~~Ah so there you are little one~~

I am so pleased with your response and your participation in this conversation. After spending time with you in Vegas I have a very high respect for your authenticity and intellect where BDSM is concerned. your integrity is astounding. The submissive that knows their value and displays such integrity will always be attractive to Me.

Thank you for popping out of the wood work to add to the conversation.

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Caitlynne ~ So nice to see you again as well ~

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KC ~ Hello pussy cat. A lack of honesty in My opinion shows weakness for all the world to see. It is not something that disappears with a simple sorry. It takes courage to play it straight.

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I am NOT doing spell check! No new words are going to ~~sneak in~~

Now on to the next batch

 

[Netzach]

Nice to have you back.

I don't know that there's a lot of information here totally specific to BDSM relationships. People being people some end relationships well some end them badly, some with integrity and some without, it all just seems like the vast panorama of human behavior to me. Yes, some people get people into a vulnerable situation and take advantage, it's inevitable. Perhaps the specific vulnerabilities in D/s make it a happier hunting ground, but I'm not sure it really is when I look at non-D/s people and their ways too.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Caela ~ How nice to have you add to this discussion. Sometimes people like to know they have someone to go to when they leave another...a safety net...BDSM or vanilla...

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Hello Malach ~ I am so happy for you that all turned out well. for you and your Master. Sometimes it takes a strong no nonsense Master or Mistress to pull a head out of an ass ~~grin~~

All teasing aside...you are very brave to share your story and all that you have learned. Through your mistakes and mis-understanding many have the opportunity of not ending up hurt for the same reasons. Thank you for that bravery.

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Furry Fury it is lovely to share this conversation with you as well.

I like your style - you have a way of saying what you feel and at the same time do so in an insightful non judgemental way ~~smile~~

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Welcome to the conversation Catalina. Did I read somewhere that you are in Oz?

You make some very good points about insecurity and trust. Very nicely put with much depth and few words.

Thank you for the depth.

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THANK YOU Phoenix Prime 01....

You have just laid out the reality to those that know you and those that can learn from You "Exactly" what I have brought to this thread. There is no better teacher for those who may be just beginning such deceptions to see the real ramifications and hurt.

You are amazing for recognizing the different levels of blame - dealing with it - and being clear about next times. Establishing safe bounderies for Your girl.

The wanna be was "the" culprit but it was the final honesty and consequences meted out lovingly yet firmly that gives another lesson in hope of forgiveness.

Thank You for sharing so much in so respectfully

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Nice to share a conversation with you again Softouch!

Good point "Committment" not being firm can be the culprit that allows Dom/mes or sub/slaves to keep an eye open for greener pastures for no other reason than not wanting to be alone. It is so difficult to actually partner up and once one has lived within the BDSM or D/s world it is hard to be content without it.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Thank you, Ma'am for Your kind words.

I couldn't address Your topic in reality because I've no experience with sub stealing. Taking advantage of someone is never right. But I decided to take an approach to Your topic that I could speak to. I see and read a lot of submissives who are only that because they feel they have nothing else to offer someone. If they only knew that offering up true submission is priceless... to the right Dominant, that is. ;-)

I hope by next year to have some money to start traveling and seeing You again is top on my list.

Ma'am, You and RJ are the most real, real deals, I've ever had the honor to meet. And don't forget me if You're ever in Las Vegas again, okay?

 

[Shadowsdream]

Thank you, Ma'am for Your kind words.

I couldn't address Your topic in reality because I've no experience with sub stealing. Taking advantage of someone is never right. But I decided to take an approach to Your topic that I could speak to. I see and read a lot of submissives who are only that because they feel they have nothing else to offer someone. If they only knew that offering up true submission is priceless... to the right Dominant, that is. ;-)

I hope by next year to have some money to start traveling and seeing You again is top on my list.

Ma'am, You and RJ are the most real, real deals, I've ever had the honor to meet. And don't forget me if You're ever in Las Vegas again, okay?

I

I will be in Las Vegas again and you will be surprised why...but I will tell you that when I am on My way.

And accepting that submission from the right submissive is awesome.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I

I will be in Las Vegas again and you will be surprised why...but I will tell you that when I am on My way.

And accepting that submission from the right submissive is awesome.

Okaaaaaaaaaaaay... LOL You're gonna make me stew 'til you tell me, I see.



Did you play with Sparky? He barks and eats dog cookies.