Flashbacks: yes or no?

[AwkwardMD]

As you have every reason to know, when I've posted to critiques on the Feedback board I've invariably been subjected to personal attacks by easy-button critiquers. That gets old hat awfully quick.

Thank you. I forgot to add "I'm the victim" to the list.

 

[sr71plt]

I gave up because of primadona "Authors" who couldn't take constructive criticism as anything but criticism, and generally have delusions of being a "Novelist." That's a bad sign for me. "Oh, I only write novels, because there's no market for short stories."

"How many novels have you sold?"

"Well, my first one's back at the editor..."

Yeah, I take the advice of Jack Chalker. (Great guy.) Look up how many Novels, and collections of short stories he's published.

Over anyone who's never actually sold a novel, or gotten it past the editors. Pro-Tip: The editors will kill you, long before a publisher ever sees your manuscript.

That's why I don't write novels. The Novelty wore off.

I could give you the professional editor's take on all that. And the publisher's too (the vision of the author who thinks getting in print is all about them).

I've written (and had published) novels, but I celebrate the e-revolution that brought the novella to life. That's about all the energy I want to put into a storyline.

 

[MelissaBaby]

That's beautiful writing.

Thank you.

 

[psiberzerker]

I've written (and had published) novels, but I celebrate the e-revolution that brought the novella to life. That's about all the energy I want to put into a storyline.

Okay, the most successful book I've had published was a training manual on integrating Digital CIS into automated assembly lines with PLC Ladder Logic. (I have to maintain some seperation between Psiberzerker, and my legitimate identities. For my safety. Good luck looking that up.)

You bring up a great point, though. A novel is a lot of work. A Lot Of Work. Took me about 2 years, and I wasn't doing anything else. Putting that much of your heart, soul, and life into something, only to have it rejected, and ignored is crushing.

My advice (From Jack Chalker) is: Start your own restaurant, before you try to get your first Novel published. What you learn about accepting Failure will serve you throughout your career as an author. (Paraphrasing here, it was from a speech at a Con.)

You're more likely to get struck by lightning, in the kitchen of your own successful restaurant than to write the great american Novel. It's a great dream, good luck with that.

I hope you're better at taking rejection than I was.

 

[sr71plt]

I found that working for publishers and having writing credits elsewhere than books is a good backdoor to avoid the submissions process at the front door. My first series of novels (not erotica) was commissioned by a publisher based on my background. I haven't had to go through the submissions process since.

 

[psiberzerker]

If I were going to go that route (I'm happy as an outsider artist) then I would probably go for Editor. To pre-edit my work, because that seems to be the hardest process.

However, the single greatest factor in success of your book is already having a successful book. Not just for publishers, but also for readers.

 

[JugheadJane]

I used flashbacks in my story ‘Freedom Comes at a Price’. I kept them short and only included the most important information. Judging by the rating the story received, readers had no trouble following the flashbacks. I couldn’t have written the story without them because the main character is selectively mute and refuses to talk about her awful past.

 

[NotWise]

Back to the context for a moment...

I think that flashbacks are a simple tool that authors can think of as being useful and kinda cool, when in reality they're mostly a little hard for readers to follow. They're often done poorly. Occasionally they're done superbly.

I haven't read the Story Feedback thread that all this emerged from, or the original story, but I think I agree with AwkwardMD that flashbacks shouldn't be used in the place of better writing.

I can't make a rule about using flashbacks, and I think that trying to make rules is always a problem in writing. When giving advice, it's hard to generalize things to 'rules.' Constructive comments need to be specific, and to acknowledge what the writer it trying to do -- or failing to do.

 

[SimonDoom]

If you are criticised? Do you learn anything from the criticism? Or does it make you think there is some substance in the criticism? Or is it just their view against yours?

This is a good question. It could be its own thread.

I do try to learn from criticism. It's not always easy, especially when the criticism is of the "I don't like the kinds of stories you write" sort, which is to say, a lot of the criticism you get from people.

But, usually, I think there's at least a kernel of something you can learn from most of the criticism you get. You shouldn't write for other people -- you should follow your own star -- but by listening to others carefully you can find a faster and surer path to get there.

And, by the way, as the OP, I appreciated your contribution to the thread.

 

[MelissaBaby]

This is a good question. It could be its own thread.

I do try to learn from criticism. It's not always easy, especially when the criticism is of the "I don't like the kinds of stories you write" sort, which is to say, a lot of the criticism you get from people.

But, usually, I think there's at least a kernel of something you can learn from most of the criticism you get. You shouldn't write for other people -- you should follow your own star -- but by listening to others carefully you can find a faster and surer path to get there.

And, by the way, as the OP, I appreciated your contribution to the thread.

I try to be very open minded and learn from criticism, but some of it just baffles me. Still, I consider it the best I can.

An example of very good criticism was something LoquiSordidaAdMe said in a comment about Chapter Two of Mary and Alvin; that while he thought I did well in my description of Maine, when I moved the setting of the story to California, it fell flat. I think the word he used was "lackluster". I read it over and he was spot on. Since then, I have taken pains to add some touch of "local color" to every location.

 

[NotWise]

This is a good question. It could be its own thread.

I do try to learn from criticism. It's not always easy, especially when the criticism is of the "I don't like the kinds of stories you write" sort, which is to say, a lot of the criticism you get from people

If you're limiting the talk to negative criticism, then that's usually easy to learn from. I've gotten very little negative criticism that wasn't meaningful to me. I mean that not just on Lit but also in my professional writing. Sometimes it just pisses me off, but even if the comment demonstrates a complete lack of understanding, I have to ask myself why they didn't understand. It shouldn't be that hard to understand. Professionally, it's my job to make it understandable.

But then, I'm not writing for the puffin on the rock over there.

It's easy to feel good about positive criticism, but I think it's hard to learn from. It's very difficult for the critic to pin down the positive attributes of a story and then communicate that in a way that an author can use to build on.

Good critics can do that.

 

[BiscuitHammer]

Le hmmmm

I have an ongoing story that is at least 50% flashbacks, but that's kinda unavoidable, because it's telling the story of two of my characters from a previous story and how they met and fell in love. I usually make it fairly obvious when a flashback is happening, however by time-stamping the scene or something.

I also have a time travel story that involves some back and forth. Ergo, I've had a few synaptically-challenged individuals throw tantrums at me, screaming that it was too hard to read. Buuuut, in my defense, I DID mention in my Author's Disclaimer that if you couldn't follow 'Pulp Fiction', stay the eff away from this story.

Guess I broked just about every rule on here.

Bisque H-style, baby...

 

[psiberzerker]

Ergo, I've had a few synaptically-challenged individuals throw tantrums at me, screaming that it was too hard to read.

Is that so? Synaptically challenged you say? Is it possible that you get such an unprecedented amount of feedback, not because they're retarded, but because you wrote badly?

I've been published here for 15 years, one story was intentionally hard to read, and so far I've gotten 1 comment. Total. In 15 years. (Where he politely said it was hard to follow.)

And yet you get a Few comments on one story, from people who barely know how to read. Screaming, you say?

Interesting.

 

[Jada59]

AwkwardMD posted something on another thread that I thought would be a good subject for discussion, taking the position that flashbacks should be avoided in stories, and that one generally should tell the story in chronological order (I hope I am doing justice to AwkwardMD's position -- if not, please correct me).

I don't agree with this position. I think there are many stories in which pieces of information, memories, data, or bits of narrative from a time frame before the main narrative have to be revealed, but it makes no sense to start the story with them. So long as using flashbacks isn't overdone, a flashback is a better way sometimes to tell what happened than to tell it chronologically.

My impression from most sources on writing is that there is no categorical rule against flashbacks, but that everyone agrees they need to be handled carefully. Good general guidelines:

1. Use them sparingly.
2. Keep them as short as they can be.
3. In a flashback, tell only what really needs to be told, so you can get back to the main narrative.
4. Use an appropriate triggering device to start a flashback.
5. Use a triggering device to snap somebody out of a flashback.
6. Make sure the flashback advances the story.

Agree but also tell the reader that it is a flashback.

I once attempted to read a book and chucked it about chapter three. There were soo many flashbacks and the author didn't identify them as such. All of sudden, the characters were a different age or wearing a different clothes or in a different place or talking to a character who up until then had never been mentioned. It left my brain in a tangle.

 

[psiberzerker]

Agree but also tell the reader that it is a flashback.

This is important, but unless you're doing a complete 3rd person Omniscient PoV (Which annoys me) it doesn't have to be "10 years ago..."

Also, "Rules" 3, 4, and 5 are Optional.

3: Only tell what needs to be told, then get back to the narrative. Again, if it's 3rd Person Omniscient. If this is a Reverie, a certain character say fondly remembering where she grew up (To later contrast with the situation of the main story) she may focus on the details which don't further the story, but she remembers fondly. Her grandmother's peach cobbler, because this is how people remember something like the best parts of their childhood. This helps us connect with, and be immersed in a fully fleshed out character. So, good for a Romance, where she stops daydreaming abruptly when her boyfriend arrives, and then later tries to bake her grandmother's peach cobbler from Memory. If the purpose of the flashback is to help us connect with/fully flesh out a character (Beyond the Southern Belle from Central Casting) then fully flesh out the flashback to her childhood, the way she would remember it. This doesn't mean going through every cup of flour, "One, two, three cups of flour" but she just might remember the apron she always wore, and the step stool she used to bring in from the den to help her/learn how to make it. This is the kind of story she might tell their children, and grandchildren when they get married... Otherwise, you have an 8" cock falling in love with a pair of perfect 32C cup tits, and nothing else.

4/5: "Appropriate trigger devices." This is better for Triggered Flashbacks, like a war story, and PTSD. The traumatic experience that gave them PTSD. Again, a minimum detail to set the setting, and take the reader there, let's say the beaches of Normandy. Make it vivid, the dive sirens of the Stukkas (This is a stock sound. Every plane in movies used to make the sound of a dive-bomber whenever they had an engine go out, to tell the audience it was in a dive. Even though only 1 model of German Dive Bomber, the Stukka, was actually equipped with a siren.) Especially triggered back. Like the stereotypical slap to the face, or bucket of water.

Again, a lot of these things only happen in movies. Remember when women used to swoon? Faint, overcome by emotion. They didn't, for the most part. Outside of hollywood in the black and white years, which was a holdover from the silent era, and stage shows they were based on. We didn't the evolve the ability to stay conscious even under extremely emotional circumstances in 1 generation. We just stopped perpetrated the myth that women passed out when their fragile minds just couldn't take it.

 

[Jada59]

This is important, but unless you're doing a complete 3rd person Omniscient PoV (Which annoys me) it doesn't have to be "10 years ago..."

Also, "Rules" 3, 4, and 5 are Optional.

3: Only tell what needs to be told, then get back to the narrative. Again, if it's 3rd Person Omniscient. If this is a Reverie, a certain character say fondly remembering where she grew up (To later contrast with the situation of the main story) she may focus on the details which don't further the story, but she remembers fondly. Her grandmother's peach cobbler, because this is how people remember something like the best parts of their childhood. This helps us connect with, and be immersed in a fully fleshed out character. So, good for a Romance, where she stops daydreaming abruptly when her boyfriend arrives, and then later tries to bake her grandmother's peach cobbler from Memory. If the purpose of the flashback is to help us connect with/fully flesh out a character (Beyond the Southern Belle from Central Casting) then fully flesh out the flashback to her childhood, the way she would remember it.

4/5: "Appropriate trigger devices." This is better for Triggered Flashbacks, like a war story, and PTSD. The traumatic experience that gave them PTSD. Again, a minimum detail to set the setting, and take the reader there, let's say the beaches of Normandy. Make it vivid, the dive sirens of the Stukkas (This is a stock sound. Every plane in movies used to make the sound of a dive-bomber whenever they had an engine go out, to tell the audience it was in a dive. Even though only 1 model of German Dive Bomber, the Stukka, was actually equipped with a siren.) Especially triggered back. Like the stereotypical slap to the face, or bucket of water.

Again, a lot of these things only happen in movies. Remember when women used to swoon? Faint, overcome by emotion. They didn't, for the most part. Outside of hollywood in the black and white years, which was a holdover from the silent era, and stage shows they were based on. We didn't the evolve the ability to stay conscious even under extremely emotional circumstances in 1 generation. We just stopped perpetrated the myth that women passed out when their fragile minds just couldn't take it.

I actually saw a woman swoon in my lifetime. For real.

I was working at a golf course. Was talking to the golf pro. An older woman came in, said, "It's you! It's really YOU!" And then fainted.

I was like... WTF? The golf pro told me that he had a local radio show and told me to get her an ice pack. He did have a good voice and was very handsome.

 

[ThatsTheGuy]

I have flashbacks often and when least expected. Good or bad, they happen.

Use them however you may or don't.

Sometimes, my flashbacks are so irrelevant, they're utterly ridiculous. Sometimes they're smaller than a pinhead. Sometimes they evolve into an alternate reality or become more immersed in life itself.

As a writer, it's better to have died trying than to have never tried at all. No regrets.

 

[ThatsTheGuy]

I actually saw a woman swoon in my lifetime. For real.

I was working at a golf course. Was talking to the golf pro. An older woman came in, said, "It's you! It's really YOU!" And then fainted.

I was like... WTF? The golf pro told me that he had a local radio show and told me to get her an ice pack. He did have a good voice and was very handsome.

I get that a lot these days.

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FgpRM19wgqLSmI%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1

 

[psiberzerker]

I actually saw a woman swoon in my lifetime. For real.

I was working at a golf course. Was talking to the golf pro. An older woman came in, said, "It's you! It's really YOU!" And then fainted.

I was like... WTF? The golf pro told me that he had a local radio show and told me to get her an ice pack. He did have a good voice and was very handsome.

Right, but it's not Common. I've seen men faint too.

 

[BiscuitHammer]

Is that so? Synaptically challenged you say? Is it possible that you get such an unprecedented amount of feedback, not because they're retarded, but because you wrote badly?

I am very sure. So very, VERY sure.

 

[JasonClearwater]

You're more likely to get struck by lightning, in the kitchen of your own successful restaurant than to write the great american Novel. It's a great dream, good luck with that.

The sense of this is right, but I'd amend it to, 'you're more likely to get struck by lightning, in the kitchen of your own successful restaurant, than have your great [insert country] novel published by a successful publisher. Or marketed. Or seen by its intended audience.'

Massive distinction as far as I'm concerned.

I've no doubt there's gold out there under the slush of self-published average writing that'll never see the light of day, and we all know of work that's been lauded that's absolute crap.

 

[JasonClearwater]

I have an ongoing story that is at least 50% flashbacks, but that's kinda unavoidable, because it's telling the story of two of my characters from a previous story and how they met and fell in love. I usually make it fairly obvious when a flashback is happening, however by time-stamping the scene or something.

Sounds like a prequal to me!

 

[sr71plt]

Most best-sellers are designated as such by a publisher's intentional marketing campaign and a publisher's decision on what is going to be a best-selling novel isn't always determined by the quality of book content.

 

[BiscuitHammer]

Sounds like a prequal to me!

I refer to it in my disclaimer as a 'sprequel', actually. Why should Lewis Carol have all the fun with portmanteaus?

 

[JasonClearwater]

I refer to it in my disclaimer as a 'sprequel', actually. Why should Lewis Carol have all the fun with portmanteaus?

IKR? And once upon a time prequals didn't exist, and now they do, so I support your right to write a sprequal. Paving the way, Bisque-H stylez.