Fetishism, females, Marx, Freud and Mulvey, oh my!

[Stella_Omega]

hi stella,

i love theory; don't get me wrong. i would just like to see some data. my friend verdad sent me an account that was found. i hope it's posted. the only examples that come to mind are from Pat Califia (when she was she) and from the movie Piano Teacher. in both cases the 'fetish' was tied up(?) with degradation scenarios [as i would call them] with fetishishic elements; and i do believe some women like those; AS WELL AS a sizable contingent of us males.

i tend to agree with grush and liar about there being a tenuous connection; though i suppose if one is freudian, consumer behavior, esp. the weird stuff is going to have a sexual motive.

I was commenting on Charley's blow-off.

I find theory quite irritating. I prefer, like you, real and specific examples and anecdotes, maybe some statistics. Theories are so theoretical. Real people can offer contrary evidence to any theory anyone cares to create.

I think theories are a fetish, in both the Freudian and Marxist definitions- a man-made object that stands in for a real thing. People like Laura Mulvey and Camille Paglia (from my time) can say things that are either utterly banal or patently ridiculous and create a storm of controversy. What a joke!

Along with "The Piano Teacher" (which is, I'm pleased to see, actually written by a woman) don't forget "the Story Of 'O' "

Pat Califia had more fetishes than merely bondage. Her books are worth reading, both the fiction and non. And after a lifetime of championing Dyke Rights in the face of the lesbian communities disapproval of deviant women- she became a man. Now he's known as an expert on gay male sex!

I know of very few women who deal with genuine fetish issues (as opposed to a kink, as Strab points out) who are not also gender uncertain at the very least, but that may be because of my own nature, and the community that I found welcomed transitioning people going both ways. However my last long-term girlfriend had some mild fetishes, kinks if you will, and has no gender dysphoria.

I can offer some specific data, if you want to call it that, from my own personal experience, and tell you about women I know, if you care to hear them. But fuck if I want to take the time to type out something intimate and wrenching for no particular reason.

In fact, I'd imagine that's one big reason we don't hear much about straight women's fetishes -- as we've seen on this board, women don't talk comfortably about deviances from the norm, especially in the face of male disbelief and/or disapproval. A woman who stands to lose her children to her spouse isn't going to give him any ammunition... Too much to lose by it.


I like both Neonlyte's and Elsol's posts, and I somewhat agree with Elsol's theory there, but I think the fixation has to be reinforced somehow, by whatever mechanism, if it starts in adolescence. If it starts in early childhood, I think it will be self-reinforcing, because (I think) children are damn good at self-reinforcing. And those are the fixations that come closer to genuine fetishes-- objects that can take the place of sex.

I think neonlyte brings up an interesting point-- that a socially accepted "fetish" is not considered a "fetish' at all. We've developed many of these quite recently-- perfect hygiene and white teeth, for one. Can't kiss a mouth that isn't minty fresh! Can't be close to someone that smells like sweat in any way!

As it happens, these are two fetishes that I don't share-- this forum is one place that I know of where there are (some) other people who don't share them either. Not sharing marks me as odd in general society.

 

[rgraham666]

I believe we might avoid some of the problems that arise from 'theory' if we used the word properly.

'Theory' in the scientific world has a very specific meaning. 'Theory' means the body of knowledge that currently best describes a large group of physical phenomena. So you have Newton's Theory of Motion, Einstein's Relativity Theory, Darwin's Theory of Evolution, quantum theory, etc. And common to all these theories you have a large body of data that supports them.

Most 'theories' though aren't theories, they're hypotheses. They are pretty much guesses where only one person's or small group's limited views and data are included.

Perhaps we'd get less hot under the collar if it was 'feminist hypothesis' or 'political hypothesis'. We wouldn't be nearly so inclined to take it so seriously.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I believe we might avoid some of the problems that arise from 'theory' if we used the word properly.

'Theory' in the scientific world has a very specific meaning. 'Theory' means the body of knowledge that currently best describes a large group of physical phenomena. So you have Newton's Theory of Motion, Einstein's Relativity Theory, Darwin's Theory of Evolution, quantum theory, etc. And common to all these theories you have a large body of data that supports them.

Most 'theories' though aren't theories, they're hypotheses. They are pretty much guesses where only one person's or small group's limited views and data are included.

Perhaps we'd get less hot under the collar if it was 'feminist hypothesis' or 'political hypothesis'. We wouldn't be nearly so inclined to take it so seriously.

I'll burn this observation into my brain!

 

[Grushenka]

I think theories are a fetish, in both the Freudian and Marxist definitions- a man-made object that stands in for a real thing. People like Laura Mulvey and Camille Paglia (from my time) can say things that are either utterly banal or patently ridiculous and create a storm of controversy. What a joke!
...
I think neonlyte brings up an interesting point-- that a socially accepted "fetish" is not considered a "fetish' at all. We've developed many of these quite recently-- perfect hygiene and white teeth, for one. Can't kiss a mouth that isn't minty fresh! Can't be close to someone that smells like sweat in any way!

Stella, I truly like the way you think. Sounds trite, but after a few months of reading a great variety of your sensible thoughts (vs. pseudo academic jargon and theory sound bytes) I am simply grateful. You captured the crux of matters and put it together in the post from which the quotes above are taken. I myself find fetishizing extremely interesting, on so many levels, but I too did not want to waste my time for the same reasons as you.

I learned more about fetishes, sexual role play, gender i.d., etc., from Califia than all the 'theorists' out there (and I actually enjoy reading theory, but not for practical or sensible reasons).

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella, I truly like the way you think. Sounds trite, but after a few months of reading a great variety of your sensible thoughts (vs. pseudo academic jargon and theory sound bytes) I am simply grateful. You captured the crux of matters and put it together in the post from which the quotes above are taken. I myself find fetishizing extremely interesting, on so many levels, but I too did not want to waste my time for the same reasons as you.

I learned more about fetishes, sexual role play, gender i.d., etc., from Califia than all the 'theorists' out there (and I actually enjoy reading theory, but not for practical or sensible reasons).

fank 'oo And I know you would have some excellent "data" to share!
Check out these two stories; She is a true fetishist, and I am positive she's truly a woman.

Charley wants a type of discussion that doesn't much exist here. And I don't trust her motivation, frankly, for continuing to engender them -- since she's said, very specifically, that she always posts in the way she intends to. I don't mind playing the guinea-pig, but what's in it for me, eh?

If you've ever noticed, on any mainstream bookstore's erotica shelf-- Califia stands right next to William Burroughs. I always got a kick out of that- the misogynist next to the militant dyke. That joke is a bit more bitter-sweet now...

 

[Grushenka]

Check out these two stories;

Wow, what an utterly delightful read, the electrician (will save t'other for later). I gave her a 5 and a pc. Thank you! Now why can't I find such good stuff on my own; I give up nearly every time after back-clicking 20+ times.

Yeah, Burroughs next to Califia. Makes me want to go put him on bottom shelves. 'Bottom', get it? Yeah, I know you do.

 

[Pure]

data

my cyberfriend verdad, found this little gem, which certainly looks like a case of 'female fetishism,' and it doesn't fit the category of 'degradation scenario' which i proposed for at least some female "fetishes."

===
verdad's example:


http://www.amputee-online.com/amputee/bruno_art.html




::::::::::::::

Case 1: Devotee/Pretender

Ms. D. is a 48 year old white female who presented when her husband was evaluated for Post-Polio Sequelae (PPS). (20) (N.B.: Some demographic information and circumstances in the cases have been changed to protect the patients' anonymity.) She had been married for ten years to her husband, a 55 year old polio paraplegic who walked with forearm crutches and two knee-ankle-foot orthoses. She presented crying and agitated after reading an article in New Mobility magazine entitled "Devotees of Disability." (1) "I am all of this," she said tearfully, "I can't live with this inside of me any longer."

Ms. D. described herself as a devotee and pretender. She had been interested in men who had mobility impairments since she was a teenager. The first evidence of her interest was in high school when she dated a boy who had a severe limp, "He was very self-centered, not very likable, but I dated him anyway. I wanted to hold him, to feel his limp as we danced, to touch his hip and leg." Although they kissed, she reports not being very sexually aroused by him and was interested, not in having intercourse, but in being with him and potentially seeing his affected leg.

When Ms. D. went to college she would occasionally sketch men who were naked except for leg braces and crutches. She dated a number of non-disabled men in college and had her first sexual experience with someone who was not disabled, which she described as "very satisfying and orgasmic." However, she was constantly looking for disabled men. While visiting a museum she saw a man her own age walking with long leg braces and crutches, "I became flushed and flustered. I followed that poor man throughout the museum." She became despondent when she could not figure out a way to meet the man.

In graduate school she dated a teaching assistant who limped as a result of an amputation, "He would walk around in summer with loafers and no socks. I could not take my eyes off the cream-colored artificial foot I could see above his shoe." She reported not being attracted to this man but dated him anyway, saying, ""I wanted to hold him, to feel him limp and his artificial limb. I so very much wanted to sleep with him so I could see his artificial leg." Ms. D. suggested that they have sex but the man said he had never had intercourse and that he would not sleep with the patient because of he was an amputee.

Shortly thereafter, a singles magazine was mailed to her post office box. In it was a personal ad from a man using a wheelchair. Ms. D. answered the ad and arranged for a date. She met the man at his home and they had dinner at a restaurant, "He was obese and I think mildly retarded. But I was so excited to be seen in public with him." They went back to the man's home and began kissing. "Incredibly aroused" at first, her ardor quickly cooled. She excused herself, retired to the bathroom and masturbated to orgasm by imagining herself having sex with the man, "At the time I thought it was so strange. He was in the other room, but he did not excite me. Yet the thought of being with him, and especially seeing his wheelchair in my mind, is what brought me to orgasm." They did not continue to have sex nor did they meet again.

After finishing her graduate degree she began working for a large corporation. She continued to occasionally date non-disabled men and had sex that included orgasms. However, she continued to search, obsessively at times, for disabled men. Two or three times a year her interest would surface for up to a week, triggered by accidentally seeing a man with a limp, on crutches or using a wheelchair, "I would follow the man down the street or through a store, never able to figure out how to strike up a conversation." Occasionally, she would see a disabled man in the company of a non-disabled woman and feel, "sad and lonely. I would think to myself, 'I would love you more than she does. I could take better care of you than she can'."

For several days after seeing a disabled man she would drive to shopping centers on the way home from work and pass the handicapped parking spaces, try to catch a glimpse of another disabled man. After several days of unsuccessful searching she would become dejected and despondent, angry at herself for "giving in" to her compulsion.

Pretending. Ms. D. rose to a position of responsibility in her company and traveled for at least one week each month. On one trip she noticed a wheelchair behind the front desk of the hotel, "It struck me that I could get a wheelchair while I was in a city where no one knew me and roll around as if I were disabled. Flushed with excitement, my heart pounding in my ears, I went to a surgical supply store and rented a wheelchair."

She drove to a mall, parked and pulled the wheelchair out from behind the front seat, "I slowly and laboriously pulled myself into the wheelchair, letting my legs drag. I was eager for people to watch me, to see that my legs couldn't move. I pushed myself into the mall, again looking to see if people were watching me. I was full of emotion. I felt whole for the first time in my life."

As she pushed herself through the mall, she realized that what she wanted was to encounter a disabled person, preferably a man. Not finding a disabled person, she returned to the car and reversed the same laborious process, dragging herself and then the wheelchair into the car, hoping that she would be watched. She returned to the hotel and researched the locations of other malls. Every night after her business meetings she drove to a mall "and became the disabled person I wanted to be. I was obsessed with being out in my wheelchair, to find someone who had a disability 'just like me'."

After several days she parked next to a handicapped parking spot where a man was getting out of his car, "He had a brace on one leg and a severe limp. I loved his watching me drag myself into the wheelchair, lifting my limp legs with both hands onto the foot rests. I felt an overwhelming arousal. I was flushed, my whole body was burning. I wanted to be with this disabled man...not sexually, although I would have. I just wanted to be with him, be seen with him, to be disabled with him." She did not pursue a conversation with the man and they parted.

Ms. D. flew home, stimulated by her "adventure." For her next trip she decided to bring a rented wheelchair to the hotel and "arrive as a disabled person." She found a surgical supply store in advance of her trip, booked a wheelchair accessible room at the hotel and picked up the rented wheelchair on the way from the airport, "I was again flushed and aroused. I loved the hotel staff looking at me wheeling through the lobby. The man behind the desk and the bellmen were so kind and thoughtful to me."

While at the hotel she went to the indoor pool, "I loved people looking at my paralyzed legs, wondering why I couldn't move them." She again traveled to local malls in search of "other disabled people." She would return to her room after these adventures and masturbate to orgasm while sitting in the wheelchair, "The fantasies that aroused me were not even sexual. I would imagine my legs being paralyzed or a man's paralyzed legs, or picture my being in a wheelchair, his walking on crutches, or his braces, and have an orgasm." She admitted that she could not remember having a masturbatory fantasy that did not involve disability since she had been a teenager.

Her ultimate fantasy was to meet a disabled man while she was pretending to be disabled and have sex, "I wanted to be accepted by a disabled person as being disabled myself." However, she denied strongly that she herself wanted to have a disability, "I wanted to be accepted as a disabled person, not become one. I remember sitting at a stop light and seeing a beautiful woman about my age in the car next to mine with a wheelchair behind the front seat. Without thinking I said to myself, 'Poor thing. I bet she never gets dates. I wouldn't really want to be disabled for anything'." Ms. D. admitted thinking at the time that this statement was bizarre given her desire to be seen as disabled in public and accepted by people with disabilities as "one of them."

Ms. D. did not rent a wheelchair on future trips, saying, "Pretending was exciting and even sexually arousing but frustrating, exhausting and not fulfilling."
Marriage. When she was 38, Ms. D. met a new co-worker, "I was waiting to begin a meeting and in came a handsome man walking on forearm crutches and wearing two long leg braces. I couldn't talk, my whole body flushed and I almost passed out." She was introduced to this man and found him to be "pleasant and gentle, if quiet and shy." After taking several days "to recover my senses," she invited him to lunch and they dated frequently thereafter, "I was overwhelmed. All I could think about was being with him, being seen in public with him. I loved to have him next to me walking on his crutches. I loved to hear the metal 'clink' of his crutches and braces."

Over the next several months she went to great lengths to help him when he had significant difficulty dealing with company politics, "It was actually sexually arousing to me to be able to help him." Although they kissed and fondled each other on dates, they did not have intercourse for the first two months, "I enjoyed kissing. I would grab the top of his braces and pull him to me. Feeling the metal against my legs and was very arousing, but I was not eager for intercourse. I would go home and immediately masturbate, having orgasms remembering him on top of me and us walking together in public."

After two months they would take off their clothes while kissing but she arranged for him to keep his braces on. They finally had intercourse without his wearing braces and she was orgasmic, "The first time I was aroused by how thin his legs were, how they couldn't move. The second time I missed the feel of his braces. I had to look at the braces and crutches standing against the wall in order to have an orgasm. By the third time, I stopped having orgasms but would go into the bathroom afterward to masturbate, again imaging his braces or him walking with his crutches."

After six months he professed his love and asked her to marry him. By this time she was totally disinterested in sex but had come to care for him and enjoy his company, "I thought, 'You've found what you always wanted. Why shouldn't you marry him?'" They married three months later and moved into his accessible apartment.

Over the next years they lived companionably and she provided him with sex weekly although she stated, "I know it is ludicrous but I have to fantasize during intercourse that I am with some other disabled man just like him, with braces and crutches." Their frequency of intercourse decreased to about once a month as her company responsibilities grew and she began traveling about 15 days a month. She still masturbated several times per month, fantasizing about being with other disabled men, men with disabilities identical to her husband, "I know this is ridiculous. I have married my fantasy man. Why doesn't he arouse me?"

Over the last 5 years Ms. D.'s husband developed PPS, with bilateral shoulder pain from crutch walking, new arm muscle weakness and pain, back pain and increasing fatigue. He began to use a wheelchair for distance one year ago which disappointed Ms. D., "I had still been aroused by his walking on crutches. This is selfish and horrible, but I know you'll tell him to use the wheelchair all the time and I won't even have the pleasure of watching him walk anymore."

Insight: Childhood Dream of Disability. Ms. D. came to the fourth therapy session reporting that she had had a dream in which she was a young girl walking into her elementary school wearing long leg braces and using crutches, "I walked into the school and felt in the dream, 'Yes! This is the real me. This is who I want to be: a disabled child.'"

When asked about the relationship of her dream to her attraction to disabled men and her pretending to be disabled, she cried and began talking about her parents, saying, "I was an accident born 15 years after my brother. He left home when I was 2 and I was raised as an only child." She described her father as "unsatisfied and a demanding tyrant." Her father would nightly scold her mother for the mother's flaws, "My mother would just sit there silently, looking wounded." Ms. D. described herself as "a terribly lonely child," with neither parent displaying emotion or affection, "They basically ignored me. My father worked and my mother kept scrubbing the kitchen floor. They never hugged each other or me or uttered one kind word."

We discussed why the patient wanted to be a disabled child and she recounted an incident when a local child, who had had polio and walked with crutches and leg braces, walked past their home on the way to school, "My father saw the girl as he retrieved the morning paper and said to my mother, 'I saw poor Sally walking to school.' 'Yes,' said my mother, 'Poor Sally' and her eyes filled with tears. I had never seen either one of them show any tender emotion before!"

Ms. D. also remembered a class trip a few years later when she saw another girl who walked with crutches and leg braces, "I just stared at her from a distance, seeing how her classmates carried things for her, how the teacher walked with her behind the rest of the class." After that experience Ms. D. would play in the family garage using croquet mallets as crutches and tying sticks to her legs for braces. She also remembered finding her old baby carriage and pretending it was her wheelchair. The patient concluded, "I wanted to be a disabled child so I would be loved. Pretending to be disabled now that I am an adult - even if I actually became disabled - cannot make up for the love and attention my parents did not give me."

After the dream and the discussion of her childhood, Ms. D.'s interest in pretending she was disabled and even looking for disabled men decreased markedly, "I will get somewhat excited if I see disabled men, but I am no longer compelled follow or go looking for them. Sometimes I have the urge to rent a wheelchair when I'm on a trip, but there's no point to it any longer?"

Ms. D. is no longer aroused by fantasies of disabled men and has stopped masturbating using such fantasies. She has for the first time begun fantasizing about and even achieves orgasm thinking about having sex or intercourse with non-disabled men. Ms. D. also has begun to enjoy sex with her husband, "My husband is a good man and I do love him. I am ashamed that I used him, that I married him under false pretenses. But I want our relationship to work."

Ms. D. discontinued psychotherapy just before her husband was about to begin treatment with the Post-Polio Service so that, "he will not discover my secret."

 

[Stella_Omega]

Wow, what an utterly delightful read, the electrician (will save t'other for later). I gave her a 5 and a pc. Thank you! Now why can't I find such good stuff on my own; I give up nearly every time after back-clicking 20+ times.

Yeah, Burroughs next to Califia. Makes me want to go put him on bottom shelves. 'Bottom', get it? Yeah, I know you do.

The most erotic of all his novels- as well as one of the more lucid ones-- The Wild Boys I am sure finding that book at age 17 is part of why my freak-o-meter is set so unnaturally high... but then, I went looking for it after all.

 

[gauchecritic]

non-disabled? That is so weird, even in context it is just weird. I suppose it's a misguided attempt at PC instead of using the word 'ordinary' or suchlike.

 

[rgraham666]

Charley wants a type of discussion that doesn't much exist here. And I don't trust her motivation, frankly, for continuing to engender them -- since she's said, very specifically, that she always posts in the way she intends to. I don't mind playing the guinea-pig, but what's in it for me, eh?

If you were a bottom you wouldn't have to ask that question.

If you've ever noticed, on any mainstream bookstore's erotica shelf-- Califia stands right next to William Burroughs. I always got a kick out of that- the misogynist next to the militant dyke. That joke is a bit more bitter-sweet now...

Actually that makes sense to me. Two sides of the same coin and all that.

 

[Pure]

note to stella,

i always enjoy your postings, and had a look at the 'colonoscope' story by wanderlustress. it's a fine little fantasy; reminds me of the one where a male is, inch by inch, absorbed into [taken within] a cunt.

personally, i call it 'kink', and distinguish it from fetish, though there is a gray zone in between. given that the rectum is next to the sexual organs it's a common 'confusion' to experience the anal as sexual, etc. it becomes 'kink' if that's how she generally prefers it.

i see nothing wrong with a 'theory', or account of why we are as we are; the best theories thrive on data and help make sense of them. indeed, i pretty much 'buy' [accept] the proposal that all of us are 'theorists', just some not very original or good. e.g., when, for example, you hear of a female high school teacher having an affair with a 15 year old student, i think all of us have 'theories,' i.e., ways of accounting for it. same for, successful businessman one day just leaps out his office window. or the estates lawyer who's caught dipping into his clients' funds.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thanks, Pure! that is indeed a true fetish.

non-disabled? That is so weird, even in context it is just weird. I suppose it's a misguided attempt at PC instead of using the word 'ordinary' or suchlike.

WTF??? You pick up on the funniest things sometimes!

Her world was divided into men who were and men who weren't disabled.
A guy could have been blue-skinned, evidently-- that wouldn't have been her first concern.

 

[Grushenka]

WTF??? You pick up on the funniest things sometimes!

I've noticed that too. I think he has a polemical nature.

 

[neonlyte]

I've noticed that too. I think he has a polemical nature.

He's from Yorkshire.

 

[Stella_Omega]

If you were a bottom you wouldn't have to ask that question.

I'd switch for Charley, I've told her so "Any time," I said. I asked nicely, and said "Please." A girl can hope can't she?

Actually that makes sense to me. Two sides of the same coin and all that.

yes, isn't that perfect polarity?

He's from Yorkshire.

Now I want to talk to him on the phone!

 

[gauchecritic]

WTF??? You pick up on the funniest things sometimes!

Ask Sher, it doesn't matter what you write, it's what people read that counts.

I've noticed that too. I think he has a polemical nature.

Not at all, I merely choose my ground.

And non-disabled is still weird, because it identifies a majority using a minority measurement. (in much the same fashion as neeblank (sp) in afrikaans)

 

[Stella_Omega]

Ask Sher, it doesn't matter what you write, it's what people read that counts.



Not at all, I merely choose my ground.

And non-disabled is still weird, because it identifies a majority using a minority measurement. (in much the same fashion as neeblank (sp) in afrikaans)

But in the context of this particular woman's viewpoint, it defines the people she doesn't want as opposed to the people she does. She perceives the norm as a minority, in a sense. Her internal counter is saying; "non-disabled... non-disabled... Ooh! a disabled guy!"

 

[gauchecritic]

yourself. Now stop hijacking or Charley will see and she won't let me...

erm... just stop hijacking.

 

[Grushenka]

yourself. Now stop hijacking or Charley will see and she won't let me...

erm... just stop hijacking.

What's to hijack?

 

[gauchecritic]

What's to hijack?

Stella. (I'm considering giving her my voip number)

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella. (I'm considering giving her my voip number)

You can't hijack me- I hijacked you first!

 

[Grushenka]

(I'm considering giving her my voip number)

My, my... Considering? Giving? Arrogant to boot!

 

[Stella_Omega]

My, my... Considering? Giving? Arrogant to boot!

Now now, that's because I said I'd like to hear his voice on the phone ( the Welsh accent, you see)

 

[gauchecritic]

Now now, that's because I said I'd like to hear his voice on the phone ( the Welsh accent, you see)

Unfortunately she misread Yorkshire as Wales. (Although I do a pretty fair rendition of the now adopted Red Army Choir version of Sospan Fach)

My, my... Considering? Giving? Arrogant to boot!

You forgot witty, scathing and urbane.

And arrogance is as arrogance does (but only from the outside). "You can always tell a Yorkshireman, but not much."

 

[Grushenka]

I do a pretty fair rendition of the now adopted Red Army Choir version of Sospan Fach)

OK, now I want your voip number.