Feminism & Smut

[bashfullyshameless]

Is it just me, or does anyone else here give significant thought to whether or not you're being a decent feminist (or, by flipside, worry that you're being sexist) with the stuff you write on literotica?

I realize this question may seem like troll bait, but hopefully anyone with a thoughtful answer will be able to recognize & ignore any trollish responses they get.

This is something I think about a lot. I'd love to hear what sort of thoughts other writers have on it.

 

[Euphony]

(or, by flipside, worry that you're being sexist) with the stuff you write on literotica?

I know nothing of how to be a good feminist but I can with much certainty that there are some excellent sexiest posting stories on a daily basis. Worry seems the furthest thing from their mind. Well second only to grammar.

*edit* I do have a legitimate question to ask though. Must one be a "good feminist" 24/7 and at every opportunity? If one wants to take a break from the cause every now and again I would think it beneficial, even healthy.

 

[sr71plt]

I don't have much of a problem, because most of my stories don't have any women in them at all. When they do, the women tend to be strong characters. I have never, ever written up a woman character as a sub to a man. Never ever have let a man do anything sadistic to a woman in any of my stories. (Sort of strange, as I have male protagonists--and some central to whole series of stories and books--who like to be treated rough. But never a woman.) So, I guess on the whole I'm not bad in this department.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I don't think I could possibly write a hetero story without a feminist slant. My pussy would just dry right up. And my ink along with it.

I have written sexist characters, and I have written sexist roleplay type scenario, though. But every time, the narrative is pointing right at the fact that it's roleplay, or the character is sexist. I like to model a world in which feminism-- an assumption of global civil rights-- is as normal as brushing teeth.

Must one be a "good feminist" 24/7 and at every opportunity? If one wants to take a break from the cause every now and again I would think it beneficial, even healthy.

What is a "good feminist?"

 

[Cruel2BKind]

What is a "good feminist?"

Pays his/her taxes. Raises their kids right. Eats fruits and veggies. Destroys the patriarchal regime. Etc.

 

[Euphony]

I don't think I could possibly write a hetero story without a feminist slant. My pussy would just dry right up. And my ink along with it.

Stella = octopus?

What is a "good feminist?"

Exactly. As you said, if its your nature it "is as normal as brushing teeth."

Thats why I was a little as to the seemingly "trying to keep it in mind" when one writes.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Pays his/her taxes. Raises their kids right. Eats fruits and veggies. Destroys the patriarchal regime. Etc.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella = octopus?

you haven't meet Despina Jones?

Exactly. As you said, if its your nature it "is as normal as brushing teeth."

Thats why I was a little as to the seemingly "trying to keep it in mind" when one writes.

Well, it can be difficult, if your only model for smut is heteronormative "she's a slut cumhole" type stuff. Or if your model for feminism is thirty year old RadFem rhetoric...

 

[sun_sea_sky]

Is it just me, or does anyone else here give significant thought to whether or not you're being a decent feminist ...

I don't think they are related. There is an implication in the question that erotica (sexual thoughts?) are somehow anti-woman.

I understand feminism to be espousing equal rights for women.

Now if men are turned on by erotica, then it is fair that women should be too. And if men write erotica, so should women.

 

[SevenSquared]

Is it just me, or does anyone else here give significant thought to whether or not you're being a decent feminist (or, by flipside, worry that you're being sexist) with the stuff you write on literotica?

I'm not sure what you mean by being 'a decent feminist'. When it comes to erotica, what really qualifies as feminism? Not putting women in roles submissive to a man?

But at the end of the day a lot of erotica (or even 'smut') is about exploring the different ways that two (or more) characters have power over each other, whether that's sexual power, emotional power, physical power or whatever. If you refuse to allow women to ever play the submissive role then are you really being a decent feminist or are you in fact doing just the opposite - forcing women into a predefined role that society (in this case liberal politically-sensitive society) deems is appropriate for them?

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm not sure what you mean by being 'a decent feminist'. When it comes to erotica, what really qualifies as feminism? Not putting women in roles submissive to a man?

Feminism in writing-- any sort of writing-- means writing the female characters with as much respect and dignity as you would write a male character in similar circs. It means that at some point, a female character will be the protagonist, will have a thought or two of her own in her head, will exhibit some autonomy, will not merely exist as an object of the plot. It means your female characters won't be introduced, given sympathetic roles and then killed so as to give the male character a motive to be manly-- a practice that has become so common we call it "fridging."

It's entirely possible to write a female character that is submissive to a man, and still write from a feminist perspective-- all you have to do is write more than a fuckdoll.

But at the end of the day a lot of erotica is about exploring the different ways that two (or more) characters have power over each other, whether that's sexual power, emotional power, physical power or whatever. If you refuse to allow women to ever play the submissive role then are you really being a decent feminist or are you in fact doing just the opposite - forcing women into a predefined role that society (in this case liberal politically-sensitive society) deems is appropriate for them?

Well, see--here you have it. Do you write women who play the submissive role? Like, do you imply that they have a choice about it? Is there ever a possibility in your written world that a woman might not be submissive, that a man might be equally happy in a submissive role-- even if you don't show that happening?

Or do you just stick women into the submissive slot every time because 'biology is destiny? ' whether or not she has an opinion about it?

Something to think about.

 

[SevenSquared]

It's entirely possible to write a female character that is submissive to a man, and still write from a feminist perspective-- all you have to do is write more than a fuckdoll. Well, see--here you have it. Do you write women who play the submissive role? Like, do you imply that they have a choice about it? Is there ever a possibility in your written world that a woman might not be submissive, that a man might be equally happy in a submissive role-- even if you don't show that happening?

Or do you just stick women into the submissive slot every time because 'biology is destiny? ' whether or not she has an opinion about it?

Something to think about.

When you say 'you' I assume you are meaning an abstract 'you' rather than me personally.

I guess there is a difference between writing a story where the woman plays a completely submissive or 'empty' role and making it a pattern across all your stories. I don't think there is anything fundamentally 'unfeminist' about a story where the woman is just an empty story device for a man to get his rocks off into (or a 'fuckdoll' as you put it) any more than there is anything wrong with a man playing the same fuckdoll role for a woman in an equivelant story. Sometimes empty plot devices are necessary.

Feminism in writing-- any sort of writing-- means writing the female characters with as much respect and dignity as you would write a male character in similar circs.

I agree, this is probably the best you can do in making sure your writing is as 'feminist' as possible.

 

[Handley_Page]

I suspect I am going to be in trouble here, but:-

What is a "good feminist?"

Does such a thing exist outside the weekend magazines and up-market journals?
[ And, if I understand some of those brilliant cartoons lately seen, well outside a certain Political Party ]

Pays his/her taxes. Raises their kids right. Eats fruits and veggies.

You mean 'normal', as in 'responsible' ?
Able to handle life's smaller crises without disolving into floods of tears every time something goes wrong (like some domestic equipment breaking) ?

. . . Now if men are turned on by erotica, then it is fair that women should be too. And if men write erotica, so should women.

As I understand it, they already are; in large measure.

If "50 shades" is the latest 'thing' in Mummy Porn, there's a whole new genre for the Baby Boomers on the near horizon. Romance & Sex is not just for the young, I'm pleased to report.

And now, back to the kitchen, where the floor should be more-or-less dry by now. . . .

 

[Stella_Omega]

Handley, my friend-- Cruel2beKind's answer was sarcasm.

SevenSquared-- remember, we are not saying that feminism makes a better storyteller. Being a good storyteller is separate from being a feminist-- orthogonal, my new favorite word.

We are talking about how we incorporate our feminism into our stories, or not. Perhaps, how to do so AS a good storyteller.

You asked a question, by the way, which I answered. I thought you asked it in good faith, but maybe you were being rhetorical?

I don't think there is anything fundamentally 'unfeminist' about a story where the woman is just an empty story device for a man to get his rocks off into (or a 'fuckdoll' as you put it) any more than there is anything wrong with a man playing the same fuckdoll role for a woman in an equivelant story. Sometimes empty plot devices are necessary.

Yes, actually, there is something fundamentally unfeminist about this. Both ways, in fact, male or female. Again, that's not to say the story wouldn't make people happy. But neither story would be feminist. Sorry.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Is it just me, or does anyone else here give significant thought to whether or not you're being a decent feminist (or, by flipside, worry that you're being sexist) with the stuff you write on literotica?

It's certainly something that's important to me, but it's not something that I worry about consciously while I'm writing smut. My attitudes tend to show through of their own accord anyway.

*edit* I do have a legitimate question to ask though. Must one be a "good feminist" 24/7 and at every opportunity? If one wants to take a break from the cause every now and again I would think it beneficial, even healthy.

Being a good feminist isn't all protest rallies and stuff. Much of it is just in how we live our lives, and especially about the things we don't do (e.g. "no, you can't have that, that's a boy's/girl's toy"). It's not something that I really feel a need to "take a break" from.

I'm not sure what you mean by being 'a decent feminist'. When it comes to erotica, what really qualifies as feminism? Not putting women in roles submissive to a man?

I've written smut with a woman submitting to a man (not yet posted on Lit). The important thing is that she's chosen that submission, and she sets her own limits to it - she's quite willing to be tied up and play with feigned nonconsent, but that submission doesn't extend to other things.

 

[lovecraft68]

Most of the stuff I write here the woman is in control.

In my mother/son work the mother is always calling the shots.

In my SWB series the Brother and sister were both into BDSM and even when he was the top it was because that was what she was in the mood for.

In my group stories it's usually the wife who is in control of who her and her husband seduce and is the one in charge once sex starts.

So if anything I tend to lean towards strong women characters because to me men are boring cock driven idiots so I just keep it that way.

 

[SevenSquared]

You asked a question, by the way, which I answered. I thought you asked it in good faith, but maybe you were being rhetorical?
Yes, actually, there is something fundamentally unfeminist about this. Both ways, in fact, male or female. Again, that's not to say the story wouldn't make people happy. But neither story would be feminist. Sorry.

Yeah we're sort of debating the dregs of the English language here, but in my head I am considering there is a difference between a story that is simply not a feminist story (which I guess would be most of them) and a story that is actively unfeminist (which in my opinion is very few taken in isolation).

I'm not sure whether the OP was talking about writing more actively pro-feminist stories or simply less unfeminist ones. My argument is simply that it is very difficult to consider a single story to be 'unfeminist' when it is merely exploring one of the many permetations of sexual activity. You may or may not agree with this, much of it probably comes down to semantics and how you define feminist.

 

[YDB95]

I try to make my female characters realistic and strong in their own rights, not just props for the guys. If I succeed at that (which is up to the readers to decide), then I figure I'm living up to my feminist ideals. And I do take those ideals seriously in real life. I'm a man, and I see it as a big part of my responsibility to do what I can to help bring about gender equality.

 

[PennLady]

I try to just write good characters, all of them independent in their own right to some degree. If they aren't, I think I try to get them that way. I hate stories about weak women. I like my damsels in distress to find some inner strength and confidence to get out of their situations. The men (or other women ) might help, and people do need support from their friends, but I want my main character to work it out on her own.

This is not to say that I want all my female characters to be brassy ball-busters. I just want them to be more than a fawning, man-obssessed bed partner.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

No one reads porn for political education, it didnt work out in Stalin's Russia, and dont work now.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

This is an interesting discussion. Since porn is considered by most to exploit women, how can any erotica (or porn) be feminist in nature? My initial thought was that any erotica written by a female author is feminist, since the act of writing erotica (or porn) is a jab at convention. Expressing sexual fantasies is by definition a feminist act, since the "traditional" role of women is to be quiet and satisfy their men. But on second thought, it occurred to me that erotica written by a female author for the purpose of gratifying male sexual urges would pretty much destroy that concept--and there is certainly a lot of that here. So then, is erotica written by and for women the definition of feminist erotica? I don't think that's enough. Stories about weak women who are exploited by stronger males hardly seems feminist to me, even if authored by a woman for other women. Does the woman have to be a ball buster? I don't think we need to go to that extreme.

With the exception of the story I am currently writing (that one is sexist to the extreme--sorry, ladies), almost all of my stories feature strong, sexually aggressive women. I don't write with an agenda in mind; rather, I just happen to like women who know what they want and know how to get it.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

For years I have posited the idea that there is a distinct difference between one's social roles and one's personal roles. One should, socially, be fair-minded, egalitarian, etc. But personally one should be able to play any way that's satisfying. If the corporate exec, after a day of dictating and commanding, wants to come home to a spouse/partner(s) who bind and flog, why not? That may be just what's needed to recharge the ol' batteries for another day of rapacious or responsible capitalism (the choice is yours). If Senator A, after a week of having the staff kowtow and cater to every wish, wants to go back to Georgetown, lock the door and spend all Saturday being ravished, who is to say it's inappropriate? Frankly, I think this discussion is a Straw Man Special. Forty years ago it might have had relevance. Today? Meh!

 

[voluptuary_manque]

How apropos! I just checked into Scientific American and look what I found--a sexy feminist with a Ph.D and four children doing a film series about Wild Sex. Does that answer the OP's question?

 

[TE999]

Since I write a bunch of Lesbian Sex stories, I routinely put women in roles featuring their strength, ingenuity, sensibility and agility. I'm all in favor of this in RL as well.

OTOH, I equate 'Feminisim' with a bunch of disgruntled, dissatisfied, homely broads going floppy-tit braless in Hello Kitty T-shirts, exercise shorts and Birkenstocks while protesting some real or frequently imagined slight to their 'femininity' in public places and generally making pests of themselves.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

OTOH, I equate 'Feminisim' with a bunch of disgruntled, dissatisfied, homely broads going floppy-tit braless in Hello Kitty T-shirts, exercise shorts and Birkenstocks while protesting some real or frequently imagined slight to their 'femininity' in public places and generally making pests of themselves.

And there you go, that's how the Republican party lost the women's vote.