FemiNazi

[sweetnpetite]

Oh how I hate this term! As if extreme feminists could ever compare with Hitler and his minions.

However, the underaged sex thread was being somewhat hijacked by the equally interesting topic of feminsm in its forms and extremes. Several people said that they where feminists. Several eronious things where said about feminists and feminism (straw man anyone?) So I thought that a thread to discuss feminism might be interesting and well recieved.

1. Are you a feminist? Why or why not?

2. What do you think feminists should focus there efforts on?

3. Do you think that there is still a need for feminism in this day and age?

4. Do you think the 'old gaurd feminists' have made themselves irrelevant?

5. Do you think the new guard feminists are making themsevs irrelvant?

6. What do you think of the term feminazi?

that should get us started. Answer any or all that you wish

 

[LorriLove]

hiya

hiya love, not really qualified to answer but thought i'd say hello

i've never considered myself to be feminist and never taken much interest in those who have.

i'm a happy housewife with a very undrstanding and sweet natured husband who likes to treat me like a lady, couldn't be simpler if everyone works at it.

i do feel the exreme feminists fuck it all up for us real people though.

 

[sweetnpetite]

HI! I think I'm might repost under the turm 'feminsm' to see if it gets any more interest. I'll probably just get yelled at for double posting

 

[Couture]

Femi-Nazi. Good term. Let's make women ashamed to ask for equal pay for equal work.

Sure . . . sure . . . they ask to be president's and vice-president's <snicker> especially around that time of the month if you know what I mean.

And I know they get their panties all in a wad because Viagra is covered by health insurance, but birth control isn't.

At least a cock in the mouth can usually shut them up.

And I would love to know how women who fought for your right to vote, to own property, and to not be considered a man's property has fucked it up for the rest of the 'real' people out there. Jesus-h-christ, we have really got to bring people up to speed with history. Somebody tell me that this is all a dream.

 

[LorriLove]

wow

Femi-Nazi. Good term. Let's make women ashamed to ask for equal pay for equal work.

Sure . . . sure . . . they ask to be president's and vice-president's <snicker> especially around that time of the month if you know what I mean.

And I know they get their panties all in a wad because Viagra is covered by health insurance, but birth control isn't.

At least a cock in the mouth can usually shut them up.

And I would love to know how women who fought for your right to vote, to own property, and to not be considered a man's property has fucked it up for the rest of the 'real' people out there. Jesus-h-christ, we have really got to bring people up to speed with history. Somebody tell me that this is all a dream.

wow must be shit where you live, we've had the vote for years here, and women have been able to own property since one of the queens hundreds of years ago said so, can't remember which one, not good at history. if i remember she wasn't anyone's property either though.

as for equal pay, dunno about that i know i get more than the blokes in my department cos i'm in charge, but umm i got that position for myself not from some plackard waving dyke.

oh and i just love a cock in my mouth, fav game that.

 

[Em Keli 2003]

SweetnPetite

1) I consider myself a feminist. My awareness of feminist issues was largely introduced to me by my mother. And further built upon by experiences with friends and lovers. I believe that women should be fully entitled to equality and freedoms afforded men. I find it an abomination that in the year 2003 women are paid on average only 60% of what a male is paid for the same work or position. I am a single father raising two daughters and a son and have tried to raised them with an awareness of the feminist causes.

For anyone that wants to be "barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen", that is fine and I see no fault. But if a woman desires something outside of that I believe she is fully entitled to pursuit of a career or any other of myriad freedoms.

2) Current focus should be aimed at resolving pay disparity. Also the issues surrounding widowed women and their entitlement to property. Some state still allow the husband to by pass his wife and give to away to his sons what the wife worked for with the husband side by side their whole lives. The mentality that women are less competent than men should be challenged whenever it rears its ugly bias.

3) The need for a feminist movement unfortunately remains valid today. There has been progress but not sufficient to abandon continued efforts to raise awareness about pertinent issues.

4) & 5) Old vs New guard and relevancy.
Hmmm. That is a lot of ground to cover. A book or two at least.
Some elements of both Old and New have made themselves irrelevant. Not the majority.

6) Feminazis. For starters I would say they are largely the antithesis of mysoginists (women haters). They are the extremists who bash all males simply because they hate males or know of a particular type of male behavior and blame it on all males. Some elements of this consist of a small section of gay women who are anti male. This does not necessarily apply to all gay women though. The radicalized extremists make it harder to get valid points across to the mainstream and give those disinclined already something to grasp onto as a reason for their refusal to concede any ground on valid feminist issues.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As if extreme feminists could ever compare with Hitler and his minions."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Language often gets muddied and I think that is the case in this instance. I agree that extreme feminists could never compare with hitler and Nazis. I think somewhere back at the birth of this term, someone mistakenly held the term nazi and facism as interchangeable. I think Femi-facists would be a more appropriate terminology. But Feminazi is in the stream of consciouness already.

 

[Em Keli 2003]

Couture

RE:
Femi-Nazi. Good term. Let's make women ashamed to ask for equal pay for equal work.
__________________________________
I don't find any fault with feminsm in striving for equality in any area. I think you are blurring the term Femi-Nazi as well, applying it to all feminists which is a mistake. The distinction is important. I support feminst issues. Those Femi-facists who would bash me simply because I am a male I do not support and I think they damage legitimate efforts for feminst causes.

I hear a lot of anger. Not making any judgment call about whether that is good or bad. Anger is an appropriate motivator at appropriate times. I agree with much of what you are saying but even believing myself in feminst cause and wanting my children, girls an boys to be feminsts
your tone starts to make even me defensive.

I am 100% agreed that birth control should be covered by insurance. I also have a lot of other issues with Insurance companies. I've already voted for female for President and will again depending on the candidate. Men that have a phobia about PMS need to be dropped in the middle of a room with 100 women on PMS and learn how to cope with it. Or not and be eliminated from the gene pool.

 

[TheEarl]

I am against some feminists, who believe that as a man, I am solely responsible for everything that has gone wrong in the world. As a man I am an evil, misogynistic, selfish, biased bastard, whose only pleasure in life is screwing over women.

For some reason that irks me.

The Earl

 

[Guest]

I am against some feminists, who believe that as a man, I am solely responsible for everything that has gone wrong in the world. As a man I am an evil, misogynistic, selfish, biased bastard, whose only pleasure in life is screwing over women.

For some reason that irks me.

The Earl

Well said, and oddly that irks me, too.

Somebody I know is a bit like that, but I will not name names, just incase, because I'm very close to this person.

She cries 'equal rights' and runs down men, is forever saying that women are superior and that 'we' can do anything better than 'them'.

In the next instant a lightbulb needs changing, and it's "Oh, I can't do that, I'll have to get my husband to do it." Or she won't ever put any rubbish out, because "that's a man's job." She's never learnt to drive because the men should drive the women about. I ask you? I despair sometimes.

That really irks me; double standards and hypocrisy.

Lou

 

[Em Keli 2003]

LorriLove

Hope its alright if I take these out of order, luv?

oh and i just love a cock in my mouth, fav game that

Jolly japes that...took a bit to stop laughing fore I could type a response. I love getting a lickin as much as I love givin' a lickin. Notice I did not dare to touch that line in Couture's statement --- but you did it well.

wow must be shit where you live, we've had the vote for years here, and women have been able to own property since one of the queens hundreds of years ago said so, can't remember which one, not good at history. if i remember she wasn't anyone's property either though.

I like your sense of humor but women did not get the right to vote until they got out in the streets and raised a fuss and we both know that. an God save the Queen an all that but before the Queen there was her daddy the King who had all the schillings and property etc. And the Queen was a princess who got promoted because there were not any princes dancing around in her daddys immediate off spring. The Queen mum is simply a holder in due course until a male heir pops up to take back over. She enjoyed rights that 99.9% of the rest of English women never even dared dream about at that time.

as for equal pay, dunno about that i know i get more than the blokes in my department cos i'm in charge, but umm i got that position for myself not from some plackard waving dyke.

Go girl..Good for you. But you and I both know the statistics and women on average make 30 to 40 percent less than men doing the same job and thats not right. Obviously the glass ceiling in the corporate world is not a hallucination induced by PMS.

Yes, we've come a long way baby....but the journey ain't over yet.

 

[Em Keli 2003]

THE EARL

For some reason that irks me

I hear ya. The some....femi-facists....feminazis can be pretty irking. I would be on their side....if only they'd let me be.


TATELOU

Sounds like you have been talking to some of my ex wives.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Sorry for being late, time differences, just woke up... OK, here we go:

1. I'm most definitely a feminist. I feel that men and women should be treated equally politically, economically, etc, and without feminism, those men who are selfish and greedy, will steal power and money from women, and force them to be depending on a man for her own survival. Independence is one of the most important things in the world for me. All men and women should be independent and free to make their own choices.

2. That depends entirely on where they are. Over here, we're getting screwed politically. Our dictator state minister, Göran Persson, is manipulating his way into getting more power for himself, by either firing strong women, or having them moved into less powerful positions, or by harassing them, hoping that they'll feel so bad that they'll WANT to move. We need more strong women within the government, more strong women in the business world, and more strong women in media.
In USA, I'd imagine it's pretty much the same thing. How many films are currently in cinemas right now, with the main character being a woman over 40?
In other countries, we'd need to start from the basic, and demand freedom for women to get a driver's license, freedom to go outside without a male family member escorting her, freedom to use birth control and have an abortion, freedom to choose her own boyfriend/husband...

3. HELL YES!!! Just because we have legal rights to be treated as equals, doesn't mean that we have the possibilities in real life to be treated as equals.
Women have the same right as men to study at a university - but when we do, men's essays usually get valued higher, and they don't get sexually harassed even half as much as women.
Women have the same right as men to get a job - but we get 60% of their salary, and if we get pregnant, we risk loosing our jobs. Some companies refuse to hire women because they claim they are afraid that the chemicals the company deals with could damage the female reproduction system - but the same dangers apply to men, who are more than welcome to work there! Harassment, either sexual or verbal or physical, occur daily in job places. Women get beat up or insulted or fondled, just because the men at that place are like little boys who "don't wanna play with a GURL!", and no-one does anything against it.
We have come a long way, yes, but it's a lot of road left, and we must ALWAYS mind our steps, or we'll slip and slide back to where we were yesterday!

4. Definitely not. They are the ones who need to teach us young ones what they went through, what they achieved, and what we should look out for, what we should avoid, what we should do. Soicety may have improved thanks to them, but each new generation are born with a clean slate of mind, and might easiyl loose all the things the old guard won for us, if we don't learn how to fight for these rights.

5. No, but I think we need to organize ourselves better, and work together. We have different experiences, and different views on what needs to be done. Some are hateful and just want to kill off all men, which I think would be a real pity - those blow up dolls just don't do it for me! Others are more balanced, and have clear agendas on what they want to accomplish, what they want to defend, etc. We need the strength of the group, and even though we may piss each other off again and again, we can all get a little from each other - the bitter one may give her sisters a little of her anger, the strategic one may give a little of her ability to plan and organize to the bitter one...

6. I don't like that term. I think that it applies to all those who have despaired, and are no longer feminists but anti-men people. Which is NOT the same thing! Feminism wants men and women to be treated as equals. Feminazism wants men to be slaves. What's the point in having a slave who will just say "yes, dear"? I prefer a man whom I can battle my wits with, just as I do with my female friends.
Media, atleast the whore-like tabloids, love the feminazism, because it sells extra issues of their magazines to write about bra-burners and man-haters, rather than sensible women who debate salary issues and demand better child care.
All the noise about feminazis being hysteric, bitter women who hate men, scare the young women away, making them think that feminism and feminazism is the same thing.

This is where a really good history lesson is necessary!

 

[Couture]

Why is it that when a man hates women he is called a misogynist or an asshole. When it's a woman, she's a femi-nazi? The issue has been framed in such a way that when a woman asks for equality she's automatically a man hater or dyke.

In the next instant a lightbulb needs changing, and it's "Oh, I can't do that, I'll have to get my husband to do it." Or she won't ever put any rubbish out, because "that's a man's job." She's never learnt to drive because the men should drive the women about. I ask you? I despair sometimes.

And women have the market cornered on hypocrisy huh?

You know, you can get pulled into all type of games and convulted logic here, but the fact still remains that there is inequality out there. You are not a nazi for wanting to be treated equally.

People say things like that and it becomes a belief. Women become scared to associate with such things. Now membership drops. The fatdaddy's take a sigh of relief.

Instead of becoming caught up in the word femi-nazi or the bad feelings that were purposely created for the term feminist, all you really need to do is apply the rule of logic. Should it matter if you have a pee-pee whether you get paid more money for doing the same job? Should it matter if you have a pee-pee whether you are capable of holding an elected office?

Progressive's need to take a long hard look at how they are getting framed over and over again, and start fighting back. When you have a company or gov't office that isn't willing to give women equal pay, then there must be a bunch of fags that work there. If they are married, so what? To condone such a practice, they must really prefer cock, yes?

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I've always been curious about what men really do with their dicks since they deserve better jobs and better salaries and better rights for having them.

Then I watched a manga cartoon movie about a gay couple in an office, the boss and his male secretary, and then I understood...

*goes out to buy a strap-on*

 

[Guest]

And women have the market cornered on hypocrisy huh?

I never said that, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words into my mouth. This thread is about feminism, so I merely stated my own personal experiences.

I live my life in a way that I have obtained equality, I'm sorry for those millions of women that haven't, truly I am, but everyone should stop looking outwards and blaming society/men/other women, whatever, and remove chips from shoulders.

I have a completely equal relationship with my husband, I am extremely happy with my life, and I am a very confident woman. I have NEVER thought of myself as a feminist, and I hate the whole thing about the 'battle of the sexes'. There is no battle, not as far as my own life is concerned, anyway. I feel empowered, therefore I am empowered, and that strength comes from within.

Don't jump on me and say I don't care about inequality in the workplace, or what women had to go through to get the vote. I do know. I am merely stating my own PERSONAL circumstances and opinions, I am not having a go or doing down anyone. Everyone should feel free to live their own lives as they want to live them, and as we go about our lives we should treat others as we would like to be treated ourselves. It's all about respect; respect for yourself and respect for others.

I have got nothing further to say on this subject, I said all I had to say about it a couple of months ago, in another thread, and I don't have the time to enter into it again.

Lou

 

[Couture]

I said that. Everything above it was a direct quote, so I didn't put words in your mouth. I could have come up with some story about some men that would have just distracted from the point.

I'm sorry for those millions of women that haven't, truly I am, but everyone should stop looking outwards and blaming society/men/other women, whatever, and remove chips from shoulders.

Call me crazy, but if something isn't right, I believe those of us who know it isn't need to step forward. Now, I'm glad you are have achieved equality, but what about the millions of women who haven't? Instead of being sorry for them, you should do what you can to help them. This is how slavery was ended. This was how .. . nevermind.

 

[Icingsugar]

Why is it that when a man hates women he is called a misogynist or an asshole. When it's a woman, she's a femi-nazi? The issue has been framed in such a way that when a woman asks for equality she's automatically a man hater or dyke.

When a man hates women he is generally called a chauvunist pig. At least that's my experiance. (no not personally, I don't hate anybody )

And women have the market cornered on hypocrisy huh?

Uuh, who said that? Nobody in this thread, at least.

You know, you can get pulled into all type of games and convulted logic here, but the fact still remains that there is inequality out there. You are not a nazi for wanting to be treated equally.

Ah, feminism. It's such a funny little word, isn't it? The interpretations to the word are so vast and means so different thingd to dofferent people, that it's virtually impossible to ask "are you a feminist" without adding "and with feminist I mean one that..."

But personally, I have never entitled myself a feminist. That doen't mean that I want men to dominate society. It means that I can't limit my ambition for person-to-person equality to something as specific as gender.

I'm much rather a humanist. Everyone should have the same opportunity find a place, and grow as an individual. There are greater barriers to that than "cock or cunt" in western society. Preferrably money.

And no, I can't really dig in to the word feminazi. Who is that? Eva Braun? Today we've got classroom nazis, police nazis, grammarnazis... All this abuse of the word Nazi is wearing it's real meaning out.

There are feminists. Supporting and working for equality, socially, ecenomically, politically and attitude-wise between the sexes. And that is good, and still needed.

But then there are...something else, self-branded as feminists, but who angrily demands my grovelling or my head on a plate because I, as a representative of all things Male (due to my pee-pee and notihng else), owe them.

They did a survey about salaries once where I worked, and it showed three things things. First of all it showed that women doing the same job as men got less paid. Everyone got upset at first, until they read on... The report also showed that the men in general were older, had more years as employees at the place and had higher levels of education. Things that should give better pay anyway.

Finally, it showed that the women and men with the same years in the company and the same education were still not equal.

Why?

The men had asked for individual raises, the women hadn't. There is no political goal left here in the west. We´re down to defeating old attitudes, and that can't be done by aggressive bashing on either side.

 

[TheEarl]

I said that. Everything above it was a direct quote, so I didn't put words in your mouth. I could have come up with some story about some men that would have just distracted from the point.



Call me crazy, but if something isn't right, I believe those of us who know it isn't need to step forward. Now, I'm glad you are have achieved equality, but what about the millions of women who haven't? Instead of being sorry for them, you should do what you can to help them. This is how slavery was ended. This was how .. . nevermind.

Couture: I understand your point and agree with you that women have not achieved equality yet, but you are jumping down Tatelou's throat for all the wrong reasons as you are talking at cross-purposes. You may have quoted her word for word, but it was slightly out of context.

I am against some feminists, who believe that as a man, I am solely responsible for everything that has gone wrong in the world. As a man I am an evil, misogynistic, selfish, biased bastard, whose only pleasure in life is screwing over women.

For some reason that irks me.

This was my original point, stating that I only hated the feminists who seemed to take every man as being solely responsible for the ills of the world. Tatelou backed me up with the story of her friend who is a hypocrit and forever running down men. It wasn't distracting from the point, it was illustrating mine.

It had very little to do with your argument, as you are talking about the women who don't have equality and we are talking about the women who want supremacy rather than equality and are hypocrits about it. Two very separate groups and two very separate arguments.

The Earl

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Just because I'm superior to men, doesn't mean that I hate them...

 

[Icingsugar]

Just because I'm superior to men, doesn't mean that I hate them...

Thanks, Flicka. This thread needed a giggle.

/Ice - superior to nobody, except maybe geese

 

[Em Keli 2003]

Svenskaflika

Thanks again for another intelligent post. I agree wholeheartedly with your points made. As to 1) politics is a nasty game and there will always be power grabs and manipulations whether it is against a male or a female. The fact that ones sex even comes into play as added ammo is despicable and should be fought in every corner. I worked diligently for a woman candidate for our local mayor and we won. In the re election for a second term there were nasty politics that were fostered by a male running against her and sucessfully unseating her. A sad state of affairs.

I feel I am fortunate to be raising daughters in a town that boasts the first woman mayor and all female city council in the United States. It is truly unfortunate that is not the norm rather than the exception.

All the noise about feminazis being hysteric, bitter women who hate men, scare the young women away, making them think that feminism and feminazism is the same thing

I think that really hits the nail on the head. It turns off valid male allies as well as far too many young women and aids and abets the continuing status quo that is simply wrong.

Of course the media is largely owned and dominated by elite males who have everything to gain by supporting the status quo.

To conquer the beast we all have to work hand in hand, male and female. Ultimately womens liberation also is liberating for men in so many respects. I still love to open the door for women but if she wants to open the door for me, hey I have no ego/insecurity problems with that either. And I love it when a woman gives me flowers.

 

[Em Keli 2003]

COUTURE

The issue has been framed in such a way that when a woman asks for equality she's automatically a man hater or dyke.

I really think that the distinction between feminist and femi-nazi is blurred by your approach and only makes the issue more complicated than it needs to be, adding to the problem of overcoming bias. There is a small cadre of women who fall into the femi-nazi category. By and large the whole of women and men who support valid feminist concerns are not femi-nazis. And as I said earlier in agreement with Sweetpetite....I dont like the term. More valid is Femi-facist. Extremist view that is seemingly founded on seeds of hate and no more valid than other extremist views.

I don't see how attacking TATELOU furthers the cause. From everything she has said she supports feminism. We need to work together and not a cross purposes that weakens the attempt to educate the masses. The status quo dearly loves to see the feminists embroiled in in-fighting. We can only conquer the beast working together with as many allies as possible.

 

[Em Keli 2003]

ICINGUGAR

We´re down to defeating old attitudes, and that can't be done by aggressive bashing on either side.

I think that is an excellent point that undescores the situation. While some progress has been made there remains much to be addressed and aggressive bashing from either side needs to be discounted if we are going to make significant progress. The chauvinst male and the femi-facist are two sides of the same coin and the coin needs to be thrown away.

 

[Em Keli 2003]

SVENSKAFLIKA

Originally posted by Svenskaflicka

Just because I'm superior to men, doesn't mean that I hate them...

I like women on top. Variety is the spice of life.

 

[destinie21]

I am. I mean, a feminist. And, guess what, I also do shave my legs (I even - ohmigod! - put curlers on my hair from time to time!) and I am pretty fond of men, apart from assholes (this by the way is not a gender-specific concept. I don't run around with proverbial vasectomy scissors, looking for a victim with apparatus on which they can be use, and I do not yell: "Let's all have abortions just for the fun of it!"

You see, I have a brain and it does not hurt me to use it more than just for the awareness of light and dark, and I tend not to form my own opinions just based on public opinion polls or, even worse, on stereotypes. Yes, I know it is easier that way. But, let me borrow one of the stereotypes, just for explanation: "Easier is not always better," not to mention correct or true.

What amazes me the most is the fact that the truth is really much simpler than these people see it, and it sometimes baffles me how come it is so lost on them. It is very clear.Feminism is the belief that women have equal social rights as men. It is basically pure HUMANISM, based on human rights and not on "hate thy neighbour" philosophy. Feminism does NOT say: "Hate all men!" it says: "Don't let people oppress you on the basis of your gender." Yes, it also means some kind of social solidarity, but that is optional. The essence is in social equality. It does NOT mean that EVERYONE should behave in the same manner, and that all women are alike and that all of them should want to be executives and chase all men out of their CEO chairs or whatever.

Finally, there are those who argue: "I don't need to be a feminist! I can fight my way to my rights myself. I am a free woman!" I am always amused with that kind of claim. Very interesting logic. You are a free woman, yet you can FIGHT your way to your rights

look inside your head and see if there is anything in it that still DOES keep women in relatively worse position.

If there is a thought in that head that says, "I am not a feminist," and justifies it with the idea that feminism means "not shaving your legs" and "hating men," then, by God, we need feminism more than ever because with women like that, men suddenly seem like a minor problem.


I tried not to rant but whatever, this subject always strikes a chord with me and I'm not ashamed to just go ahead and say what's on my mind. The above is just an opinion,of course I happen toi think it's absolutely right as it's my opinion.