Female Version of 'Macho'?

[Belegon]

Thank you, Stella. I was about to make my blood pressure leap!

No offense dear, but it should take more than that for your blood pressure to leap when discussing the lifestyle equivalent of jargon with someone outside your lifestyle.

It's like if I was discussing fencing with you and got upset when you didn''t understand a term like corps a' corp. (this assumes you don't fence, of course.)

People can say things that may sound off or even demeaning and be entirely ignorant of the overtones of what they just said. It's not deliberate, it's just not having inside knowledge.

Edited to add:

Tell me about it.

The only thing worse then Men Who Explain Things To Women is a Man Who Explains Women.

See, now I didn't put that spin on it at all... not even close. I was seeing just a pure discussion of the language.

 

[xssve]

I have plenty of inside knowledge, trust me.

 

[xssve]

Please SB, don't confuse me with JBJ. Try counting to Ten before your knee jerks.

 

[Belegon]

I have plenty of inside knowledge, trust me.

Hey, whose side did you think I was one here? Admittedly, I reacted without reading the rest of the page, but it's not like I was slighting you or something.

jeez, people.

Can we please try to remember that we are operating without the help of body language and tonal inflections? It's a clear mistake to assume the worst possible interpretation of something. I'm not saying that assuming a positive should always be done...

But there is a real potential for misunderstanding and flaming based solely on an interpretation that the original writer never intended.

 

[Vermilion]

To get back to the topic in hand and the OP, how about the word 'vamp'? Dangerous, feminine, intelligent, sexy, glamorous - Vamp

x
V

 

[xssve]

Hey, whose side did you think I was one here? Admittedly, I reacted without reading the rest of the page, but it's not like I was slighting you or something.

jeez, people.

Can we please try to remember that we are operating without the help of body language and tonal inflections? It's a clear mistake to assume the worst possible interpretation of something. I'm not saying that assuming a positive should always be done...

But there is a real potential for misunderstanding and flaming based solely on an interpretation that the original writer never intended.

Just saying, she doesn't know me, I'm closer to Stella's age, and I bet I have at least Twenty years of hard living on her, just to start.

And, I didn't start this, go back and read what I posted and tell me if I was being demeaning or derogatory, which you seem to imply i.e., if anything I said merited such a response.

We're discussing linguistics objectively here, I'm not the one who dragged politics into it.

 

[Belegon]

To get back to the topic in hand and the OP, how about the word 'vamp'? Dangerous, feminine, intelligent, sexy, glamorous - Vamp

x
V

I like that word, but I think that the prevalence of vampire fiction out there might cause confusion. Not to say it shouldn't be used, but perhaps the old-school meaning should be emphasized in some way.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Getting back on the original subject . . .
The original Spanish use of the word macha comes from Argentina where it originally meant an agressive feminist. Admittedly that was a long time ago but I believe that in today's usage, one might consider Hillary Clinton macha. And though I don't hold any truck with her, in this case it is not meant as a perjorative.

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that Stella might take pride in being considered macha.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh, well technically, we call that a bimbo.

"Not to presume on male privilage", that sums it up nicely.

Hey. I'm just throwing stuff out there, you're trying to "explain things" to me, I'm going by how these women are describing themselves, quarrel with them, not me, I let people decide for themselves what to call themselves and what that means for them.

As you say, the dynamic clearly exists, we're just arguing over what it's called.

It's always a good idea, if you are talking within a prickly othered group, to make it very clear from the beginning that you are NOT speaking from personal knowlege.

You say "I have been seeing ads from women who describe themselves as bois, and it seems to mean..."

and then your words don't come across as know-it-all.

Especially after the "bimbo" crack-- I am reminded of the time a black cartoonist wandered into my house muttering; "Jigaboo, jigaboo. Gotta get used to that, jigaboo."

 

[off2bed]

According to William Safire's 1980 book On Language, he asked his readers to send in suggestions for this word.

"'Macha' was frequently suggested, as a Spanish feminine form of 'macho.' This was topped by 'femcha,' 'femacho,' and 'feminisma;' and, to get away from Spanish, 'femo.' The 'o' ending called forth 'womo,' 'nowcho,' 'busto,' 'she'smo,' 'vergo,' msmo,' 'fexo,' wacho,' and 'bellacho.' An offbeat suggestion was 'eggsy.'"

Also suggested was the Spanish word "hembra."

 

[Stella_Omega]

No offense dear, but it should take more than that for your blood pressure to leap when discussing the lifestyle equivalent of jargon with someone outside your lifestyle.

It's like if I was discussing fencing with you and got upset when you didn''t understand a term like corps a' corp. (this assumes you don't fence, of course.)

If, Bel, your fencing was an enormous part of your life, and IF, bel, you had been concious for that entire life that other people would judge you if they knew you fenced; and IF, Bel, you had been sensitised by the enormous and unavoidable societal othering around fencing, and IF, Bel, some dude you don''t know steps up and TELLS you all about corps 'a'corp-- i suggest you might wish he hadn't even started talking.

People can say things that may sound off or even demeaning and be entirely ignorant of the overtones of what they just said. It's not deliberate, it's just not having inside knowledge.

This is true. Sometimes it's easy to remember that. Sometimes the ignorance seems to fly into your face faster than you can brush it away.

Edited to add:


See, now I didn't put that spin on it at all... not even close. I was seeing just a pure discussion of the language.

See, that's because he wasn't telling you all about fencing.

 

[xssve]

It's always a good idea, if you are talking within a prickly othered group, to make it very clear from the beginning that you are NOT speaking from personal knowlege.

You say "I have been seeing ads from women who describe themselves as bois, and it seems to mean..."

and then your words don't come across as know-it-all.

Especially after the "bimbo" crack-- I am reminded of the time a black cartoonist wandered into my house muttering; "Jigaboo, jigaboo. Gotta get used to that, jigaboo."

It's not a crack - you must be aware that the term is embedded in our still largely male dominated culture, and the forces of bimbification are alive and well, even if you're not colluding - and I've heard the term used disparagingly by lesbians as well, now that you mention it.

And, I did explain where I'd heard it, forgive me if I didn't explain everything, but assumed some intelligence on your part - you might want to ask me to explain myself before you get hostile about it - you of all people should be aware that the lines are much blurrier than common cultural assumptions would like to have us think.

I'm strictly neutral in the ongoing war of the sexes: I've lived long enough to know it isn't just what's between your legs that makes you who you are.

And I haven't just seen the ad's, I've discussed it with them - you have a better word to describe the dynamic, just spit it right out.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Ay, Stella! tan macha, eres!

 

[Stella_Omega]

It's not a crack - you must be aware that the term is embedded in our still largely male dominated culture, and the forces of bimbification are alive and well, even if you're not colluding - and I've heard the term used disparagingly by lesbians as well, now that you mention it.

And, I did explain where I'd heard it, forgive me if I didn't explain everything, but assumed some intelligence on your part - you might want to ask me to explain myself before you get hostile about it - you of all people should be aware that the lines are much blurrier than common cultural assumptions would like to have us think.

I'm strictly neutral in the ongoing war of the sexes: I've lived long enough to know it isn't just what's between your legs that makes you who you are.

And I haven't just seen the ad's, I've discussed it with them - you have a better word to describe the dynamic, just spit it right out.

So fucking say so right then and there, asshole, and yes Bimbo is a real good example of mysogynism in action. When the question is extremely feminised women, you come up with the epitome of stupidity? I now think you meant it as a joke, but there was nothing much to show that, and the thread was very respectful up to that point.
So yeah, sounded JUST like JBJ, and you gave me no reason to think different with your rationalising after the fact-- and I did ask you to explain yourself. When you didn't, and went on to tell me all about another term, I didn't expect you would explain yourself there either.

Whatever knowlege you have about this phenom it's still second hand, and you'd show some class and authority and respect if you say you have sources, and what types of sources those are. In the first place, before you come off like a patronising asshole.

 

[damppanties]

Whatever knowlege you have about this phenom it's still second hand, and you'd show some class and authority and respect if you say you have sources, and what types of sources those are. In the first place, before you come off like a patronising asshole.

Why is firsthand knowledge important, as long as it's knowledge? I am not saying xssve is right (or that you are for that matter) because I don't know enough about the subject. I just think you're reacting badly about this, perhaps because it's an issue close to you, but seriously, I didn't think he was rude or patronising. He stated something he believes is fact. I don't know why he'd have to quote his sources there. If he says something that you think is not right, just correct him. *shrug*

 

[cloudy]

Why is firsthand knowledge important, as long as it's knowledge? I am not saying xssve is right (or that you are for that matter) because I don't know enough about the subject. I just think you're reacting badly about this, perhaps because it's an issue close to you, but seriously, I didn't think he was rude or patronising. He stated something he believes is fact. I don't know why he'd have to quote his sources there. If he says something that you think is not right, just correct him. *shrug*

I dunno....the whole "bimbo" thing immediately put me on the defensive.

Someone calls me a bimbo, they'll be walking with a limp for a long, long time.

 

[xssve]

Whatever knowlege you have about this phenom it's still second hand, and you'd show some class and authority and respect if you say you have sources, and what types of sources those are. In the first place, before you come off like a patronising asshole.

So you really think this level of hostility is called for? Get a grip, I didn't invent the word, I can't discuss it? You've never met a Mimbo, or used the word? Did I call you a bimbo? Why so personal? Are you trying to tell me that you and SB are not dripping with condescension because I'm a man?

Ive met plenty of women assholes, and you're making the list - fortunately, I don't hold it against the entire sex.

Don't project your disappointments in the male of the species onto me, I carry my own water, I didn't make the world, I just live in it.

And you don't know what the fuck my experiences are, if you can't keep a civil tongue in your head, I'd prefer you not address me further.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Why is firsthand knowledge important, as long as it's knowledge? I am not saying xssve is right (or that you are for that matter) because I don't know enough about the subject. I just think you're reacting badly about this, perhaps because it's an issue close to you, but seriously, I didn't think he was rude or patronising. He stated something he believes is fact. I don't know why he'd have to quote his sources there. If he says something that you think is not right, just correct him. *shrug*

Well, simply because I am in no position to judge the extent of his knowledge otherwise. As far as I know, he could just be pretending to know.

I could start explaining all about Indian culture to you, and I'd be wrong in about 99.9% of what I said. (For example referring to that enormous and complicated society as simply one culture-- just for starters)

I could tell you that I'd talked with two Hindu women, and they'd told me something about the culture, and relay that-- and you would not think I was Explaining Things To You. It would be a far more productive beginning to a conversation, wouldn't it?

 

[damppanties]

I dunno....the whole "bimbo" thing immediately put me on the defensive.

Someone calls me a bimbo, they'll be walking with a limp for a long, long time.

He suggested an alternative to 'macho', which is not something many men want to be called. It does have derogatory overtones to it too. Plus, he explained what he meant when using it. You disagree, fine.

I still think Stella is reading too much into it and reacting far worse than I'd expect her to. Makes me sad.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Getting back on the original subject . . .
The original Spanish use of the word macha comes from Argentina where it originally meant an agressive feminist. Admittedly that was a long time ago but I believe that in today's usage, one might consider Hillary Clinton macha. And though I don't hold any truck with her, in this case it is not meant as a perjorative.

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that Stella might take pride in being considered macha.

But this suggests that macha already has a definition and it has nothing to do with exaggerated feminization. It has more to do with political rights and feminism.

Vamp would be okay but Vamp suggests a specific style. You can't have a perky vamp, for instance.

Here's a sample of entries under "Woman" in The Internet Sex dictionary There's like thousands of them. This is just a sample.

jizz spider, lady lover, lay with her feet uppermost, lesbian feminist, let in, korephile, lady hotbot, lone woman, honey dip, horse breaker, hot biscuit, hot item, hot lips, hot piece of dark meat, hotter than a red firewagon, hysteromania, infertile period, interested in only one thing, intimate apparel, little charmer, love box, lubra, Mademoizook, madam X, marble heart, minger, Miss Hotbot, mohair knickers, mother-to-be, nailhead, nullipara, old bat, X-legged, yelper, zulubruiser, wet dream-girl, whanking date, whipped, white sugar, woman of a certain class, woman in her courses, wolfish, wolf whistle, woman of size, sweet chocolate, sugar-chaser, sugar brown, tackhead, teeth in her crotch, thelebasiate, thelelingus, thelemassation, tail-femme, tail-sweet, split arse, snow bunny, southern belle, slopie gal, smasher, snuggy, split stuff, steppe sister, streamlined, strawberry, tennagant, Thisbe, sweet young thing, three-way woman, three-ring circus, tickle the minikin, tigress, titty-boo, tittivate, tocopepantic, trans-hag, trannying, trans catcher, tranz-hag, tribas, tit king, tit-up, torso job, triple header, twatty, trout-fishing, upper-ten, upside-down kiss, trouser arouser, village overtones, wallet girl, warm body, shaggable, Sheila, rubies, segoonya, sex machine, sister act, sleepy-time girl, shuttle-butt, slope gal, put (one) on the corner, quail-pipe, quiff hunter, ragmop, real stunner, real babe, rebel, saving it, rare piece of dark meat, raven beauty, scorcher, paraphin lamp, peanut smuggling, passionate pilgrim, peroxide blonde, pigmouth, pigger, phat chick, phillipean, phizgig, piece of dark meat, piece of Eve's meat, pleasure place, priss, proper bit of frock, put (one) on the block, powder one's nose, powder ones puff, pre-orgasmic woman, loose-legged woman, loose kirtle, cow, dairy farm, dairy arrangements, chalubbies, dinners, easts and wests, east and west, eat seafood, catamenial discharge, chest puppies, catamenia, cat heads, butter baby, cock-artist, be at number one, balcony, bazoongies, balloons, bad week, bad news, baby bumpers, baby pillows, a piece of snatch, a piece of skirt, a piece of calico, a piece of goods, a piece of fluff, assets, bubbies' uncle, bulbs, bunn

I think I'll go with phizgig

 

[damppanties]

Well, simply because I am in no position to judge the extent of his knowledge otherwise. As far as I know, he could just be pretending to know.

I could start explaining all about Indian culture to you, and I'd be wrong in about 99.9% of what I said. (For example referring to that enormous and complicated society as simply one culture-- just for starters)

I could tell you that I'd talked with two Hindu women, and they'd told me something about the culture, and relay that-- and you would not think I was Explaining Things To You. It would be a far more productive beginning to a conversation, wouldn't it?

I actually thought of this very example as I was reading this thread and wondered if I would have reacted like this if it had happened that way. No, I wouldn't. Seriously. If you tell me about Indians, and the information is wrong, I'd just correct you based on what I know as an Indian. I just don't see why you're insulted.

And no, I wouldn't expect you to quote your sources unless asked because what you know (or believe you know) is a fact to you.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So you really think this level of hostility is called for? Get a grip, I didn't invent the word, I can't discuss it? You've never met a Mimbo, or used the word? Did I call you a bimbo? Why so personal? Are you trying to tell me that you and SB are not dripping with condescension because I'm a man?

I am trying to tell you that you came off so condescending in your first two posts that it's flavored the rest of this thread.

So, I take it, your bimbo comment wasn't a joke? Extremely feminine women are the byword of ignorance and vapidity in your estimation.

Ive met plenty of women assholes, and you're making the list - fortunately, I don't hold it against the entire sex.

Don't project your disappointments in the male of the species onto me, I carry my own water, I didn't make the world, I just live in it.

I am disappointed in you.

Y. O. U. Not any other men at this moment, just one. Who happens to be exhibiting some unfortunately identifiable traits.

Right now, you're just another example of an unfortunate stereotype. I know you're better than this. I know-- I've seen you-- figure it out. And if you think I'm an asshole for calling you on it, that's another stereotype I've seen a million of. Big whoop.

And you don't know what the fuck my experiences are, if you can't keep a civil tongue in your head, I'd prefer you not address me further.

If you are going to talk about my world, you can expect to be talking to me. Or any of about a dozen other people here, for that matter.

I don't know what your experiences are, that's correct. You want me to assume you know what you're talking about, you have to give me reason to do so.

 

[xssve]

is this a commonly understood usage? because it's a first for me. Bimbo is as insulting as you can get, even more than slut, as far as I know-- it insults the woman's intelligence as well as her morals.

If she makes you look good, it's only by contrast-- your dog looks smart next to her.

I completely missed this post until now actually - and yeah, this is commonly understood usage, men happen to live bimbos - and it's not synonomous with slut, it implies a certain innocence - but men practically worship the bimbific ideal, precisely because they make the man look good even if they happen to be more intelligent than we are - it's more about appearances than the reality, and probobly due to the fact that among primates, females, while they do play some role in it, are not explicitly part of the alpha hierarchy.

It's idiots like JBJ that have not evolved past their primate myopia, and there have always been women who historically bucked the trend and managed to attain alpha status - Bhutto proved that, as did Eva Peron, Indira Gandhi, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pellosi, etc. - Eva Peron specifically started out as the background bimbo, but moved into the lead when it became neccessary, for better or worse.

Some of our most beloved women have been bimbos, Marilyn Monroe for example is a definitive, even stereotypical example of the role - her emotional problems make it all the more poignant.

By contrast, Mae West sort of typifies a feminine ideal that's sexual without being a slut, and more than a bimbo, intellectually speaking - hard to put a name on it, knowing, perhaps come close.

 

[xssve]

I am trying to tell you that you came off so condescending in your first two posts that it's flavored the rest of this thread.

So, I take it, your bimbo comment wasn't a joke? Extremely feminine women are the byword of ignorance and vapidity in your estimation. I am disappointed in you.

Y. O. U. Not any other men at this moment, just one. Who happens to be exhibiting some unfortunately identifiable traits.

Right now, you're just another example of an unfortunate stereotype. I know you're better than this. I know-- I've seen you-- figure it out. And if you think I'm an asshole for calling you on it, that's another stereotype I've seen a million of. Big whoop.If you are going to talk about my world, you can expect to be talking to me. Or any of about a dozen other people here, for that matter.

I don't know what your experiences are, that's correct. You want me to assume you know what you're talking about, you have to give me reason to do so.

Fuck off.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I actually thought of this very example as I was reading this thread and wondered if I would have reacted like this if it had happened that way. No, I wouldn't. Seriously. If you tell me about Indians, and the information is wrong, I'd just correct you based on what I know as an Indian. I just don't see why you're insulted.

And no, I wouldn't expect you to quote your sources unless asked because what you know (or believe you know) is a fact to you.

See, I think that would be so disrespectful of me. Even if I was giving my experiences with an Indian girlfriend, they are still not firsthand.

"It doesn't bother me, so why should it bother you?"

Truthfully, there are many days when something like this wouldn't bother me. I betcha there are a few days when it would bother you-- just once in a while.