Feedback wanted

[subdued_passion]

My comment “One thing I've noticed about this place, no matter what kind of story or how poorly written, there is always a readership.” Was in direct response to Lynn’s comment, “What about the readers, though? Do you want them to enjoy the story, too?”
I can see a few posts here addressing that comment as if it means that I don’t want your opinion whereas the point I was making was that, what readers enjoy is not necessarily a good indication of what is good or even popular. Point in fact, More than Friends. I have got more people reading, voting, favouriting the story as well as me as the author than any of the stories I’ve posted here. But I was not happy with it and so I made a thread asking for feedback.


More than Friends is a writing experiment for me. I wanted to see if I could try to write a straightforward story. So, yes I need to stick with the structure. I’ve already explained why I chose narrative over dialogue but the reason why I chose not to introduce information in the narrative as an where relevant was because I wanted to present the facts that explain people's behaviour's rather than typing the person’s motivation at the relevant juncture in the story. Rather than arguing about my choice (which really boils down to individual preference) of structure it would be useful if I could read re-write of the start (remember- don’t want to drag out the backstory with more dialogue).

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Good Vs Crap- I evaluate my work/performance as either good or not good/crap. After reading some of the posts I can understand why JBJ thought I was seeking praise. Please don’t waste time patronizing me, instead give me something I can use to write better. I’m asking for the kind of feedback that I can work with and measure improvement. Telling me to read more, or that the narrative doesn’t flow, doesn’t really help.

I know I must sound impatient it's because I am.

-------------------------

I'm not sure I would finish "Complicated," as I didn't want to read about a man as apparently abusive as Max,

This made me so happy (I'm telling myself that your reaction is because I wrote a character that sounds convincing enough- don't ruin it for me for saying otherwise).

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

My comment “One thing I've noticed about this place, no matter what kind of story or how poorly written, there is always a readership.” Was in direct response to Lynn’s comment, “What about the readers, though? Do you want them to enjoy the story, too?”
I can see a few posts here addressing that comment as if it means that I don’t want your opinion whereas the point I was making was that, what readers enjoy is not necessarily a good indication of what is good or even popular. Point in fact, More than Friends. I have got more people reading, voting, favouriting the story as well as me as the author than any of the stories I’ve posted here. But I was not happy with it and so I made a thread asking for feedback.


More than Friends is a writing experiment for me. I wanted to see if I could try to write a straightforward story. So, yes I need to stick with the structure. I’ve already explained why I chose narrative over dialogue but the reason why I chose not to introduce information in the narrative as an where relevant was because I wanted to present the facts that explain people's behaviour's rather than typing the person’s motivation at the relevant juncture in the story. Rather than arguing about my choice (which really boils down to individual preference) of structure it would be useful if I could read re-write of the start (remember- don’t want to drag out the backstory with more dialogue).

---------------

Good Vs Crap- I evaluate my work/performance as either good or not good/crap. After reading some of the posts I can understand why JBJ thought I was seeking praise. Please don’t waste time patronizing me, instead give me something I can use to write better. I’m asking for the kind of feedback that I can work with and measure improvement. Telling me to read more, or that the narrative doesn’t flow, doesn’t really help.

I know I must sound impatient it's because I am.

-------------------------




This made me so happy (I'm telling myself that your reaction is because I wrote a character that sounds convincing enough- don't ruin it for me for saying otherwise).

You write well when you want to, and when you do I award your effort with a 5 and a comment, such as I did. Reading improves your critical skills and triggers imagination.

 

[robertreams]

one way or another, you need an editor. You make the same common errors new writers often make. Some have already been pointed out to you so i won't belabor them, but here is the most telling thing you yourself said: "I don't often look at my own work critically" To be good at the trade, one must learn to read one's own work as would a disinterested outsider. Even if you can accomplish this difficult task, you still need an editor, for our own mistakes are often the most difficult to see. For myself, no matter how many times I read my work, I wind up editing for content and missing the obvious typos, etc. Don't quit, keep writing, but get an editor.

 

[sr71plt]

Telling me . . . that the narrative doesn’t flow, doesn’t really help.

It should help. It would be best to give an example or two, certainly, but fingering the narrative as not flowing well at least gives you a clue that you should read some of your narrative aloud to see for yourself whether you think it flows or not. Pointing to awkward flow is helpful, if true.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

one way or another, you need an editor. You make the same common errors new writers often make. Some have already been pointed out to you so i won't belabor them, but here is the most telling thing you yourself said: "I don't often look at my own work critically" To be good at the trade, one must learn to read one's own work as would a disinterested outsider. Even if you can accomplish this difficult task, you still need an editor, for our own mistakes are often the most difficult to see. For myself, no matter how many times I read my work, I wind up editing for content and missing the obvious typos, etc. Don't quit, keep writing, but get an editor.

In your case its alzheimers.

 

[ZackOShea]

First off, congrats on not only putting up a story but asking for feedback as well. As a writer I'm sure you know it can be pretty terrifying. However, it is the only way to improve and get better.

I just finished chapter one, and I see where you are going with this story already and it does have some good heart too it. The focus of the plot is clearly set, along with complications that will probably arise. It's good to see you know where you want to go with this.

Your exposition establishes the history of your characters, which is a strong one but comes off as dry because it is just a summary. As I think others have pointed out it may be best to start with the trio meeting for the first time for the start of the story and work in the details of their past part by part in their interaction - or later in the story. We don't need to know all the details about how characters got to where they are right off the bat. Or even starting with the phone conversation between the two girls is a good place, and start with a few small details about the letters, the truth why Janice is excited about France, that sort of thing.

It is always better to show than it is to tell.

There really is an interesting story in there, and I look forward to seeing you develop it.

My biggest advice is comes in the form of a question - who do you like reading author wise? I'd advise going back to a book of theirs you really enjoy and reading the few chapters, see how they frame the start of their narrative. Perhaps even try the first few chapters from a few different authors.

Also, as this is an issue I ran into when I got start, make sure it is very clear who each line of dialogue belongs to. Not tagging it with Such and Such said is okay now and again, when the flow is established, but if it goes for a long chain its hard for a reader to recall who is saying what. I mean, it seems like it would make sense in a back and forth, that's what I thought at first. But I got many suggestions on that particular format, so, passing it along.

Keep writing!

 

[subdued_passion]

@ JBJ- More than the stars I appreciate the feedback you've offered in the past. Reading is useful but you can't hone your writing skills without putting pen to paper (metaphorically speaking).


@ robertreams-

one way or another, you need an editor. True. But this isn't work and I'm doing this to develop a skill. How does getting an editor help me?

You make the same common errors new writers often make. You can point out the ones that haven't been pointed out.
Some have already been pointed out to you so i won't belabor them, but here is the most telling thing you yourself said: "I don't often look at my own work critically" ... I'm trying to find where I said that in this thread.

@ sr71plt- It should, but it doesn't help me. For one I have learnt English through books mostly (even though I've received an English medium education like most literate Indians) but the spoken English I am/have been exposed to is riddled with grammatical errors. I've grown accustomed to tuning out mistakes so I don't always pick up on them by simply reading text out loud.
As far as the flow is concerned, I believe, I'm not correctly punctuating my sentences to reflect them the way I read them.
But I agree, reading and re-reading it is better than posting it. Unfortunately patience has never been my virtue.


@ ZackOShea- Thank you for your tips. This story doesn't flow naturally for me at all because I'm experimenting with multiple things. I'll tell more only once all chapters have been posted.

There seems to be some confusion about dialogue even though every time a new voice speaks I've used a new para. I've skipped the 'he said/ she said' where flow has been established. I think some find it confusing because most stories here take a new line for dialogue when interrupted by narrative even if it is still the same person speaking. I've done the same in the past, wanted to try something different.

Of course considering I haven't really proofed it, it's possible that I have completely buggered up the dialogue. I'll do that at some point in the future and post here.

 

[PennLady]

An editor -- providing you find one you like -- can help you develop your skills. Sometimes it can be as simple as finding small errors that you miss, typos and misspellings. Other times, they might find a continuity error or character inconsistency, or just ask questions that get you thinking about your story, or writing in general.

You don't have to agree with your editor all the time, nor accept all of their suggestions. The idea is to improve your writing and sometimes having an outside, objective view, helps you.

 

[Magnetron]

I finally finished reading Love Conquers All last night after being absent from Lit for several weeks.

SPOILER ALERT so I don't ruin the story for anyone who hasn't read it yet.

The timeline of events has me a bit confused.

Does the child Nakushi go from being rescued from the creepy priest by the statue Raku in the temple immediately to waking up with the living demon Raku in the cave?

If so, then she unnaturally ages into an adult, gets pregnant, has the demon baby, returns back to earth alone and is once again a child who can't remember either event, flees the temple, ends up meeting her adopted parents on the bus, later ends up marrying human Raku, they visit the temple together with the child where adult Nakushi passes out and has two consecutive flashbacks?

Do I have that right?

 

[subdued_passion]

@ Magnetron- Yes.

Or, she returns to the temple, recalls the rape and is traumatized to the point where her subconscious retreats into the safety of a childhood fantasy till she is once more able to repress those memories.

Because of the category everyone assumes that the Nonhuman element is true. I deliberately wrote it the way I did because I wasn't sure if I wanted to play along with the superstition or stick with reality.



@Pennlady- Volunteer editors would have to be saints to put up with me.

 

[JWren]

One basic mistake is not taking time to "proof read" and correct your stories before submitting them for posting. If you can show some patience and leave a completed tale for 24 hours, then read through, correcting errors, you should recognise unnecessary and/or overuse of words. Superfluous is not emphasis; tighten the sentences and, when writing dialogue, it's good practice to occasionally speak it. That way, you should realise whether the speech is believable. Good luck and keep writing!

 

[Magnetron]

@ Magnetron- Yes.

Or, she returns to the temple, recalls the rape and is traumatized to the point where her subconscious retreats into the safety of a childhood fantasy till she is once more able to repress those memories.

Whut the .....?!?

You just blew my fucking mind.

 

[AMoveableBeast]

Okay, you had me at rakshasa. I will read "Love Conquers All" and let you know.

 

[PennLady]

@Pennlady- Volunteer editors would have to be saints to put up with me.

If you mean because of technical stuff like punctuation, that could be worked on. If you mean that you would argue with every suggestion or question, then yes, they probably would be. When you find a good editor, or someone you can work with in some way on this, it won't be a push-pull, do-this-or-I-quit issue. At least, it shouldn't be.

An editor or beta reader is trying to help you. If you're going to reflexively knock that help back, without much thought first, then it's not good for anyone.

 

[subdued_passion]

So the More Than Friends story is complete and it's been there for over a week. I got more votes, views for this story than any of the others.

The experiment was for me to

1. write a conventional romance. The criticism I'd received for my previous stories were that they weren't what people think of as traditional romances. Now, I don't buy that tripe so I find it hard to think of people behaving like they do in those stories and can't write that kind of thing unless it's a NonHuman story (since they're supernatural). I did slip up a few times along the way and did things people wouldn't in this kind of story. The biggest challenge I found was not letting it turn into a polyamory situation which I felt was the natural progression for these characters as they were emerging.

2. stick to a linear format. Most of my stories have me jumping all over the place with time lines and while it's interesting I wanted to push myself to try and write a linear story (again a cheated by chapter 4 and 5).

3. real world locations and other details. This may not sound like much but it was a huge deal to me. I mentioned early on that I avoid mentioning any specific place as people don't enjoy stories with a foreign location unless it has an exotic theme. Looking back I did get carried away with capturing details.

4. Take a popular story and make it my own. This story was loosely based on the movie, 'Mujhse Dosti Karoge!'. It was my starting point and yet at the end of it, the only similarity in the story is that 2 friends fall in love with the same guy and they communicate for years through mail. Only one Indian reader was able spot the similarity. So, I'm happy with that.


I need an editor. The last chapter is so horrid I actually posted an apology, only I buggered that as well- I wrote Dara when I meant Edward. I'm thinking something and typing something else. But since I'm not really a writer, and the whole purpose of this is to develop a skill set while I idle away my time here, I'm still debating whether I should use one.

I got an offer from someone to edit my work, and I could offer some pics by show of gratitude. I've been getting offers from people to "help me" with my "writing" since I joined this site. So yeah, I may act a bit churlish now towards people trying to help unless they can establish it's the kind that's of any actual use to me.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

So the More Than Friends story is complete and it's been there for over a week. I got more votes, views for this story than any of the others.

The experiment was for me to

1. write a conventional romance. The criticism I'd received for my previous stories were that they weren't what people think of as traditional romances. Now, I don't buy that tripe so I find it hard to think of people behaving like they do in those stories and can't write that kind of thing unless it's a NonHuman story (since they're supernatural). I did slip up a few times along the way and did things people wouldn't in this kind of story. The biggest challenge I found was not letting it turn into a polyamory situation which I felt was the natural progression for these characters as they were emerging.

2. stick to a linear format. Most of my stories have me jumping all over the place with time lines and while it's interesting I wanted to push myself to try and write a linear story (again a cheated by chapter 4 and 5).

3. real world locations and other details. This may not sound like much but it was a huge deal to me. I mentioned early on that I avoid mentioning any specific place as people don't enjoy stories with a foreign location unless it has an exotic theme. Looking back I did get carried away with capturing details.

4. Take a popular story and make it my own. This story was loosely based on the movie, 'Mujhse Dosti Karoge!'. It was my starting point and yet at the end of it, the only similarity in the story is that 2 friends fall in love with the same guy and they communicate for years through mail. Only one Indian reader was able spot the similarity. So, I'm happy with that.


I need an editor. The last chapter is so horrid I actually posted an apology, only I buggered that as well- I wrote Dara when I meant Edward. I'm thinking something and typing something else. But since I'm not really a writer, and the whole purpose of this is to develop a skill set while I idle away my time here, I'm still debating whether I should use one.

I got an offer from someone to edit my work, and I could offer some pics by show of gratitude. I've been getting offers from people to "help me" with my "writing" since I joined this site. So yeah, I may act a bit churlish now towards people trying to help unless they can establish it's the kind that's of any actual use to me.

'Mujhse Dosti Karoge! Official Translation: Maybe He Has Some Cute Friends.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Do any LIT writers write well enough to edit anyone?

 

[LWulf]

Thirty odd years ago, I was talking with a fellow coworker about writing stories. (Yes, I used to talk to people about writing all the way back then, and never stepped up to the plate until now) It appeared his wife and he were a writing team. He told me an interesting story they were working on that was substandard. It gave the end of the story, at the beginning. Progressively, as you read the story, the story regresses in time, which they felt, was an interesting and novel approach. From the description alone, I had to agree. Whether they put it together in an order that a reader could follow is another matter (I left the company before hearing if their story ever went to print).

The point in my saying this is not to fear attempting new ways of writing something. While telling a story is always best in a linear fashion, don't hesitate to try something out.

edit: Their story was similar to the movie "Crash" where the end is shown first, but opposed to the movie, their story regressed a couple of years and challenged you to re-evaluate the end. and they did this again and again as the story progresses going back two or three generations. The point being at the end of the story, you would look at the beginning and feel completely turned around regarding who you thought was wrong, etc etc (the same as they did in Crash)

 

[subdued_passion]

'Mujhse Dosti Karoge! Official Translation: Maybe He Has Some Cute Friends.

It means, "Will you be my friend?" but with an exclamation mark for some idiotic reason.

Do any LIT writers write well enough to edit anyone?

There are some whose works make you marvel at the writer's generosity in posting it for free.

Thirty odd years ago, I was talking with a fellow coworker about writing stories. (Yes, I used to talk to people about writing all the way back then, and never stepped up to the plate until now) It appeared his wife and he were a writing team. He told me an interesting story they were working on that was substandard. It gave the end of the story, at the beginning. Progressively, as you read the story, the story regresses in time, which they felt, was an interesting and novel approach. From the description alone, I had to agree. Whether they put it together in an order that a reader could follow is another matter (I left the company before hearing if their story ever went to print).

The point in my saying this is not to fear attempting new ways of writing something. While telling a story is always best in a linear fashion, don't hesitate to try something out.

My story Devi is like that- starts in the present and then regresses to the past. Each scene goes further back.

Just remembered, another thing I did or rather try to do with this story,

5. is make points and then flesh out the story. First time and did this and cheated along the way. I like to let things evolve and let things take their own course. So, the story is fun for me because I don't know what's round the corner. suddenly someone says something in a particular way and another character cannot help but respond in a manner you'd not planned on. With this one I wasn't letting myself do that and frustrated me a great deal (hence the cheating and deviating from the original plot I'd written down).

 

[LWulf]

I'm writing "tales from the bad girl bar" in a similar fashion. Though I have an outline of where I want to go to in three or four chapters, I am using an ensemble cast of characters which is a little daunting and challenging for me. As I am writing it, I have creative moments by thinking what characters would do in a given situation and yet stay within character.

Am I making mistakes? Probably and by some accounts from others, frequently. :shrug:

 

[subdued_passion]

I'm writing "tales from the bad girl bar" in a similar fashion. Though I have an outline of where I want to go to in three or four chapters, I am using an ensemble cast of characters which is a little daunting and challenging for me. As I am writing it, I have creative moments by thinking what characters would do in a given situation and yet stay within character.

Am I making mistakes? Probably and by some accounts from others, frequently. :shrug:

I like challenging myself, so i'm trying to do things I find difficult. But I don't want to do that plot thing again because it really sucks the fun out of things for me. It became too much of an assignment. Anyway, during the story I saw another romance develop between some other characters. I've left the trail of crumbs which'll lead to the next story. Once I write it all loose ends and vague irrelevant pieces of information will fall in place.

At some point I will rework the whole story and post it as one piece. I may need an editor then. Contact me if anyone is interested. Just know that there won't be any cyber/pics as payment.

 

[LWulf]

There is nothing wrong with challenging yourself (and to a degree I think this is what is 'fun' for the writer), but you have to temper your own tendencies. I think any writer can get caught up in their own fanfare. The trick is to give enough bread crumbs to foreshadow coming events without actually giving it all away. I'm talking with another writer at the moment discussing the very same issue.

I'll tell you now what I'll tell them: I think it might help if you write the following story before posting the current story. This way you might be able to draw more from it and foreshadow better because you know exactly what is going to happen in the following chapter. As they say, hindsight is perfect 20/20 vision. "I wish I had known that, I might have done it better."

 

[robertreams]

When Janice was a little over nine, her mother passed away in a car accident. She was on her way home when her car was slammed into by a drunken truck driver. The crash was so bad that the service needed to be a closed casket one. Losing her mother was bad, not being able to say goodbye to her felt worse. Yvonne's mother treated Janice as one of her own and a second bed was put in Yvonne's bedroom for the times that Janice wished to stay over.

When Janice was a little over nine, her mother was killed when a drunk truck driver slammed into her car at high speed. Her injuries were so severe a closed casket was needed for the funeral. (no that) For Janice, never having said goodbye was worse than losing her mother.

Yvonne's mother, consequently, treated Janice as her own child, installing a second bed in Yvonne's room for Janice's use. (Not necessarily the best,) but you should use active voice and stay away from THAT