Fat Perceptions.

[BlackShanglan]

Well, I've just got to jump in and play devil's advocate.

From what everyone's saying, I guess you're all happy with your bodies if only society would butt out. Is that right? Because it sounds like it's all society's fault.

It's a good question as to whether advertizers shape tastes or merely reflect them. Do we see thin models in ads because advertizers are trying to make us unhappy with ourselves, or do advertizers use thin models because that's what people want to see?

In any case, I think just blaming 'society' for our own dissatisfaction is kind of useless. Society is us.

---dr.M.

While agreeing with that last sentence, I do also believe that many industries - weight loss, cosmetics, fashion - have a financial interest in making people, men and women, unhappy with the way they look. Unhappy enough, at least, to buy something to fix it.

That said, I have been thinking about this a bit today, and realized how unlikely the matches in most of my stories are. Wrong gender. Blood relation. Alien race. Partially crippled and in constant poor health. (Not all at once, naturally - in different stories.) The one that is in progress may not make it to posting, but carries it all another step further, to a match almost impossible to imagine (and hence rather difficult to write).

But that's what I like. I like passion that overcomes powerful obstacles. I like love that's been tried by fire. If that's what one is aiming for on an emotional level, perhaps the extra pounds might be an asset rather than an obstacle?

Hmmm.

Shanglan

 

[carsonshepherd]

That said, I have been thinking about this a bit today, and realized how unlikely the matches in most of my stories are. Wrong gender. Blood relation. Alien race. Partially crippled and in constant poor health. (Not all at once, naturally - in different stories.)

I'm glad you put that last qualifier in

 

[domjoe]

Female "Beauty" is no longer just about child-bearing hips and tits full of milk. Women nowadays can attract sexually by their athleticism, intelligence, wit, wisdom, assertiveness, wealth, etc, like men. This means there's lots of different types of attractive women.

But I think the fundamental reason that men like women thin is that we're still terrified of some sort of voracious sexuality we men believe that fat, "greedy" women possess.

 

[carsonshepherd]

Female "Beauty" is no longer just about child-bearing hips and tits full of milk. Women nowadays can attract sexually by their athleticism, intelligence, wit, wisdom, assertiveness, wealth, etc, like men. This means there's lots of different types of attractive women.

But I think the fundamental reason that men like women thin is that we're still terrified of some sort of voracious sexuality we men believe that fat, "greedy" women possess.

You think men like women thin? I think women like women thin. With shaved legs. My (admittedly half-assed) theory is that women dress for other women.

 

[Guest]

My (admittedly half-assed) theory is that women dress for other women.

Women dress one way for women and another way for men. I dress for myself finally. For men I just take my knickers off.

Perdita

 

[domjoe]

You think men like women thin? I think women like women thin. With shaved legs. My (admittedly half-assed) theory is that women dress for other women.

I agree, but I think that too many women see themselves through male eyes.

 

[Wildcard Ky]

By social standards I am fat.

by my own standards I am curvy and sexy.


It's all about what youthink of yourself I think. If you're unhappy about yourself you'll be more inclined to go with societies judgement of yourself.


Which sucks really.

To hell with social standards. Based on your AV, I'd have to agree 100% that you're curvy and sexy.

 

[lucky-E-leven]

Well, I've just got to jump in and play devil's advocate.

From what everyone's saying, I guess you're all happy with your bodies if only society would butt out. Is that right? Because it sounds like it's all society's fault.

It's a good question as to whether advertizers shape tastes or merely reflect them. Do we see thin models in ads because advertizers are trying to make us unhappy with ourselves, or do advertizers use thin models because that's what people want to see?

In any case, I think just blaming 'society' for our own dissatisfaction is kind of useless. Society is us.

---dr.M.

I was married to a man that I outweighed by 5 or 10 pounds consistently. Doesn't this also lend a little to the inadequacy that most men feel? I mean, you don't often see rail thin men with overly thin super-model types, do you? Most of the guys I see with super-models are built men and/or men of a solid stature. I think one thing leads/lends to another. In fact, the amazing looking chick that played the 'hot chick' in American Pie actually married a metal/rock guy that has a rather soft but solid built guy a year or two later. I dunno. I think it's all somewhat connected. I rarely ever see a guy that's ultra-thin with a super-model type girl.

 

[domjoe]

Women dress one way for women and another way for men. I dress for myself finally. For men I just take my knickers off.

Perdita

Excellent!
I love Sartorial Minimalism. Very John Cage.

 

[BBWetKitty]

What do you think is "fat" and could you write a sexy story about a "fat" person? (we've had a thread on that before I think)

Also do you think the perception of fathas changed in the past few years and does that reflect in the stories you read here or write yourself?

I have been "fat" all my life. I am actually working on a story about a chubby chick who gets some (it's not fiction.)

It took me years to get over being the fat girl. Nowadays, if people cannot handle how I look, its their therapy bill, not mine.





Miss Kitty

 

[carsonshepherd]

Women dress one way for women and another way for men. I dress for myself finally. For men I just take my knickers off.

Perdita

Rrrrowwwr!

I agree, but I think that too many women see themselves through male eyes.

Does that mean, the way they think men see them?

 

[sweetnpetite]

I was raised not to use the word fat, and I still feel shocked when i hear supposedly grown people using it to insult others.

Now people like Cameryn Manhiem who wrote the book "Wake up, I'm Fat!" don't really shock me. (any more)

But I just can't help but wonder why so many adults don't have the common dececy that I had by the time I was 10. If not before.

As to what is 'fat' I think it may be because of my disuse of the word, I don't often percieve fat. I see the person, and sometimes would desribe them by shape, such as if they are round or boxy. Sometimes I don't even notice if a person is bigger. (everybody pretty much is bigger than me anyway) unless they don't seem to wear it well. (or they point it out themselves which is more often the case)

I don't know if this is ontopic or not, but there you go.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I think part of the problem is that there are no acceptable ways to imply that someone's ....er...ample.

"Skinny", which is also a pejorative, has acceptable versions in words like "slim", "svelte", "lean", etc., which all have positive connotations. But what does "fat" have? Words like "large", "plump, "zaftig", "Rubenesque", and so on have come to be seen as polite euphemisms for "fat".

Men have "husky", "thickset", "solid", &c, but women don't have any words like that, at least none that come to my mind.

So even if you want your heroine to be .... er... generously proportioned there's no good way of saying it.

---dr.M.

(some) Black men like their women thick.

That's the word that often comes to my mind. But thick really isn't the same as 'fat.' Mainstream (white) has no real word for it. Your either thin or your not. In which case your fat.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Re: Re: Fat Perceptions.

I have been "fat" all my life. I am actually working on a story about a chubby chick who gets some (it's not fiction.)

It took me years to get over being the fat girl. Nowadays, if people cannot handle how I look, its their therapy bill, not mine.





Miss Kitty

I know happy people and I know miserable people in all sizes. The most important thing, i think, is not to put your life on hold until your some fantasy 'perfect' size. People who do that are only making themselves miserable. Good to know you got over it and got on with life

I'm not always satisfied with my body or my body image, but I don't have time or inclination to obsess about it. It get's me were I'm going, right

 

[sweetnpetite]

This is from a story I'm working on now. (wrote it before I ever saw this thread) Anyway, seems like it might fit in here.

Mira was my roommate in college. I had such a crush on her, but I couldn’t tell her that. She worked as a waitress in one of those college hangouts where the girls wore tight blue jeans and low cut tops. The first time I went there to eat, and she was working, I couldn’t believe my eyes. I had always known that Mira was pretty, but decked out for this job where the prettier and flirtier you where, the better tips you made, I could tell that Mira was raking in the dough. Or at least she should have been.

Mira was by far the curviest waitress in the place. She had large amazingly curvaceous breasts. The kind that earns your boyfriend an elbow in the side, because he can’t help but turn and look. She also had hips. Not wannabe hips, but real knock me over, knock me out, put Jennifer Lopez to shame hips. She was not a skinny girl. No, she was a fine full-bodied woman. She had long dark hair, and wide dark eyes and round cheeks that dimpled when she smiled. She was at once cute, beautiful, sexy and pretty.

 

[LadyJeanne]

But I think the fundamental reason that men like women thin is that we're still terrified of some sort of voracious sexuality we men believe that fat, "greedy" women possess.

Men fear a woman's voracious sexuality?

I've heard this, but I'm really not familiar with the concept or psychology behind it. Would you mind trying to explain?

 

[English Lady]

Would I be too bold if I said that it's probably both? And that the two doesn't contradict? media machine or no media machine, there have always been people around us that we have found more attractive than other. And those who are not like the most attractive ones use them as an example to strive for in grooming themselves more attractive. Media may enhance and exaggerate this desire by slelcting a few 'perfect' samples and mass distibute them as the ideal, thus making it harder to come close to it for most people. And advertisers might exploit this to sell more grooming products. But the pattern has been around, probably since we jumped around in the trees.

What is considered attractive in different times and cultures is another story. In Reuben's days the, well, Reubenesque were considered the visual cream of the crop. Why? Because fat people were rich people and rich people meant a better future for your genes, if you got to mate with them.

Today, another body shape along with fashion and other accesories indicates who the most suitable shag for our genes might be. I believe that medias role is not to define it per se, but to exaggerate the importance of it.

#L

You talk a lot of good sense there Liar.



And thank you Seacat

 

[English Lady]

You think men like women thin? I think women like women thin. With shaved legs. My (admittedly half-assed) theory is that women dress for other women.

Yup, i think you're right there. At least firstly and foremostly we dress because of what other women will think of us and dressing up for the girls usually means dressing in sexy clothes that attract the men.


Domjoe - I think I know where you're coming from. Men are (or can be) scared of being overwhelmed by a woman.


This has turned into a great thread -Thanks everyone for your replies!

 

[domjoe]

I think staright women dress to attract men, not each other.

It's just that it's usually only other women are visually articulate enough to make comments or complements.

Why d'you think gay men have a reputation of sartorial savvy? It's becuase they can see men (and women) the way women see each other, in terms of how attractive they look.

Humans still have a sexual division diametrically opposite to the bird phylum: Females are supposed to look good; men choose.

 

[English Lady]

Straight women don't dress to attract women but to get compliments from women or at the least not to be looked down the nose at by other women. It really is other womens opinions of how you look that you worry about when you're going out (least it is forme anyway)

 

[rgraham666]

Females are supposed to look good; men choose.

I disagree with this one joe. It's still a case of men offer and women choose for humans.

It's why it's much easier to get laid when you're rich. A rich man appears to have more to offer.

It's also why right bastards tend to get more than nice guys. Viciousness is often mistaken for strength.

This observation isn't always true, but I think it's a good rule of thumb.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Men fear a woman's voracious sexuality?

I've heard this, but I'm really not familiar with the concept or psychology behind it. Would you mind trying to explain?

There's an old mythical creature called a wodwoe. It looks like a beautiful woman made out of leaves. It lives in the forest, and it lures men to its embrace. But it's only beautiful from the front. Seen from the back, it's hollow - just an empty shell that can never be filled. Any man who lies with a wodwoe dies - drained of all life.

I think it a good metaphor for masculine fear of female sexual power. Historically, most metaphors or discussions of masculine sexuality present the male as the active, penetrating partner and the female as the passive, receptive partner. But some images, like that of the wodwoe, express a fear of the female as endlessly and dangerously receptive - a bottomless pit of demand into which male effort is poured without being able to satisfy her. Eventually this leaves the male exhausted and perhaps destroyed. Better a struggling, uninterested but forcibly penetrated partner than an eager but all-consuming one. One also finds this idea in more aggressive and frightening form in the vagina dentata images that crop up in many stories and cultures - that is, the image of the vagina as a toothed mouth. It seems to express a fear of the aggressively sexual woman as castrating men or devouring their masculinity.

Partly, I imagine it stems from biological reality - most women can sexually satisfy a man, at least in the simplest terms of helping him to orgasm, but for a male to satisfy a woman is more diffcult and can be exhausting or baffling. Partly I think it a fear of a power reversal; it's very common for masculine penetration to be linked to domination or control, so under that there's a fear that that control will somehow be reversed, possibly at the critical moment of male post-coital exhaustion. Also, there's the exchange of bodily fluids in sex; one's sperm might be seen as a sign of one's masculine potency, which does suggest that in the sex act, the female drains the male of some of his inherent power and potency. Thus Yeats's question at the end of "Leda and the Swan," after Zeus takes Leda - "Did she put on his knowledge with his power / Before the indifferent beak could let her drop?" Did she take something from him in the act?

Shanglan

 

[English Lady]

Shanglan - totally fascinating. Thank you.

 

[obg]

The fascination with numbers always intrigued me. When I was a teenager, 115lbs was good, 125lbs was "getting up there." I always preferred tall women, and years ago when I asked the wife of a friend of mine about a blind date who was reputedly 5'10" and 140lbs, my prejudice showed when I asked if that was fat. She said she was really skinny. She was a stick, and not attractive to me because of it.

Since then most women, and my wife, have weighed very close to or more than I do (of those that would tell). And it's not a number, it's all about proportions. I like curves, and hips in particular, and shedding the numbers blinders was the best thing I've done. Since I always preferred attitude over physical attributes, I've stayed pretty happy.

 

[Guest]

Shang, that was a very good explanation. Literature abounds with imagery of fear of female sexuality and power. Think on Gawain's entrance into the dark, scary forest, or Dante's walk in the woods to encounter a 'new life'. There also abounds scary female imagery over centuries of classical paintings. More recently in the film "Aliens" the entrances to the mysteriously alluring but frightening spaceship looked like vaginal openings (brilliant, given the portrayal of the alien 'queen-mother').

Perdita