Extreme Discipline

[ownedsubgal]

could be i have not belonged to these boards long enough, but i see no talk here of extreme discipline. note, i am not referring to punishment (consequences one suffers because of a wrongdoing or misbehavior), but discipline, used either as a part of training or to teach and guide. perhaps discipline simply is not a part of many D/s relationships, much less extreme discipline. but my Master is very big on discipline and sometimes feel the need to go that extra mile. for instance, in the past he has used the withholding of any food (for days), or not permitting his property to speak, as methods of discipline. the point varies, but sometimes it is as simple as "you are owned, you are a thing, and don't you forget it."

am curious to read what others have to say on the subject.

 

[Betticus]

could be i have not belonged to these boards long enough, but i see no talk here of extreme discipline. note, i am not referring to punishment (consequences one suffers because of a wrongdoing or misbehavior), but discipline, used either as a part of training or to teach and guide. perhaps discipline simply is not a part of many D/s relationships, much less extreme discipline. but my Master is very big on discipline and sometimes feel the need to go that extra mile. for instance, in the past he has used the withholding of any food (for days), or not permitting his property to speak, as methods of discipline. the point varies, but sometimes it is as simple as "you are owned, you are a thing, and don't you forget it."

am curious to read what others have to say on the subject.

If the point is to break you then extreme discipline is one thing but I've only seen it used in the military and the purpose was to strip away misconceptions from the past so that the soldier could be built back up in a productive way.

You mention teaching and guidance in passing and go more into the punishment aspect. What you mention falls into the category of abuse in my opinion. Starving someone has negative long term health effects for that person. Go long enough and organ damage can occur. So out of all of this extreme discipline/punishment what is the aftereffect for you? Where is your buildup, are you a better person, is there more trust, do you function at a higher level in the real world because of it?

What did you gain from being starved for days?

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Chuckle

osg, meet Betticus.

Betticus meet osg.

Someone pass the popcorn, this is going to be good.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Re: Re: Extreme Discipline

If the point is to break you then extreme discipline is one thing but I've only seen it used in the military and the purpose was to strip away misconceptions from the past so that the soldier could be built back up in a productive way.

You mention teaching and guidance in passing and go more into the punishment aspect. What you mention falls into the category of abuse in my opinion. Starving someone has negative long term health effects for that person. Go long enough and organ damage can occur. So out of all of this extreme discipline/punishment what is the aftereffect for you? Where is your buildup, are you a better person, is there more trust, do you function at a higher level in the real world because of it?

What did you gain from being starved for days?

hello Betticus,

first, i tried to differentiate between discipline, and punishment. the discipline i'm referring to is not intended as punishment by any means. and i agree with you that the general purposes of discipline are breaking (and then rebuilding or reconditioning), or learning and growth.

as to what was gained by my Master starving his slave (i never said he ever subjected me personally to this, btw. i am not the only slave he has ever owned), she developed a new awareness and appreciation of her place as property. also a new respect for him and the power he held over her. it was not done to the point of being a serious health risk. she was given water to drink always, and after two days a few crackers to eat (more for his comfort than anything...one's breath tends to reek when one has not eaten).

He has used other extreme methods on me, over the years, and though they were always difficult to endure, in the end i always saw the point and felt a better, stronger slave for it.

 

[Betticus]

Re: Chuckle

osg, meet Betticus.

Betticus meet osg.

Someone pass the popcorn, this is going to be good.

I'm not flaming here man so it won't be that good.

 

[Mr Blonde]

I have used moderate discipline on some occasions when I felt the relationship was fairly strong and moving in a long term direction. Please remember I am not into personality modification. Rather than physical methods, it is more often mental or emotional discipline. I was guiding them through exercises to address an existing problem where the submissive herself had expressed dissatisfaction.

I have previously posted about guiding a submissive through a weight-loss program. I did it in a way where she would not re-gain the weight, using psychology instead of simply relying on calorie cutting or exercise.

Another time I required a different submissive to write and re-write (and re-write again) a short autobiography. Even though it was less than 10000 words, she had to work at least one hour a day for a 8-10 week stretch. I thought it was important for her circumstances.

Edit: Now that I think about it, I bet both of the women from those examples found it to be "extreme" discipline. Easy for me to say "moderate" when I am not the one directly confronting the problems.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Re: Re: Chuckle

I'm not flaming here man so it won't be that good.

Oh, i'm pretty sure you're not, but you might get your eyes opened a little wider than expected. i also have an inkling where you're coming from via an old profession.

Let's just say osg has surprised a lot of folks, made them think, shook their convictions, maybe even made them smile a little and think "what if?" i know she got me thinking way out in the deep end quite a few times.

Pleasant evening to you both, and enjoy.

 

[Kajira Callista]

could be i have not belonged to these boards long enough, but i see no talk here of extreme discipline. note, i am not referring to punishment (consequences one suffers because of a wrongdoing or misbehavior), but discipline, used either as a part of training or to teach and guide. perhaps discipline simply is not a part of many D/s relationships, much less extreme discipline. but my Master is very big on discipline and sometimes feel the need to go that extra mile. for instance, in the past he has used the withholding of any food (for days), or not permitting his property to speak, as methods of discipline. the point varies, but sometimes it is as simple as "you are owned, you are a thing, and don't you forget it."

am curious to read what others have to say on the subject.

Hi OSG, here is a first darlin
That type of discipline is very effective for me personally. I tend to be flighty and unfocused and at times its been hard to ground me. Extreme discipline is a way to give me that quick wake up call i need at times. I could go further into it but i prefer to see where the thread leads, im not too comfy revealing too much personal stuff sometimes.

 

[shy slave]

Re: Re: Re: Chuckle

Oh, i'm pretty sure you're not, but you might get your eyes opened a little wider than expected. i also have an inkling where you're coming from via an old profession.

Let's just say osg has surprised a lot of folks, made them think, shook their convictions, maybe even made them smile a little and think "what if?" i know she got me thinking way out in the deep end quite a few times.

Pleasant evening to you both, and enjoy.

*holds hand up* "and me Sir

OSG always make me think twice and then think again

 

[Netzach]

I am beginnng to think it's time for me to be the keeper of the cigarettes. May not seem extreme, but believe me I risk my person doing so, wish me luck...

Thanks for the brain fodder.

 

[bridgeburner]

keeper of the cigarettes?

The very idea of that strikes terror and panic into my heart.

Nobody keeps my smack away from me. Nobody!!!

 

[AngelicAssassin]

I am beginnng to think it's time for me to be the keeper of the cigarettes. May not seem extreme, but believe me I risk my person doing so, wish me luck...

Thanks for the brain fodder.

How's he doing?

 

[shelleb4]

oooh Netzach, thats extreeme!
ouch

 

[Pure]

If one accepts the military analogy, then 'extreme discipline' is the sort of thing found in elite units, like Navy Seals, French paras, advance units of US Marines.

The point is that the person is maintained as an instrument only (but not a robot) in the service of the commander(s) of the unit.

How does he or she become that?
I think one can somewhat separate 'training', as being in the lead -up process, taking the 'raw recruit' to the 'disciplined professional' category.

So it would seem more in the 'training' phase, that self-will (doing what one pleases) gets eradicated. The will is reshaped, not eliminated, so that it is only directed to the utter, dedicated, service of the objectives.

The control of food, water, cigarette, booze is as OSG says a *sign. In the case of the first two, it's not ordinarily meant to physically harm, but to make a point. In the case of the second two, every discipline program uses rewards, needs them-- the allowance of 'grog' in the old British Navy.

Isn't it interesting that one seriously hears "I do my master's will, except where cigarettes are concerned." (I'm not referring to the savage explorer, of multifarious leanings, known here as 'bridgeburner'.)

Thought: As with some parents, anyone ever heard of the punishment of "Smoke these ten cigarettes!"

 

[bridgeburner]

Pure,

Yes, smoke or drink until you're seriously ill and that'll teach you not to do it again. I've heard of that quite a few times. I don't know that I've ever actually encountered someone who really did that to his kids or anyone whose parents really took that route. I wonder if it's not one of those kind of urban parenting myth kinds of things. Although I'm sure someone somewhere must have done this.

I've often wondered how certain elite military teams are trained with the proper amount of discipline but still manage to retain the required self-determination to fulfill the duties required of them. I'm thinking particularly of SEAL teams who are reputed to be far more "think outside the box" types than other soldiers. The idea is that because they often operate without access to higher command or in situations that call for instant on the scene decisions that cannot be held waiting for word from above they are trained to take those decisions upon themselves and act ---- not at all in keeping with the general military.

Of course, I could be completely wrong about this. I've never served in the armed forces and have little contact with that world so I'm operating purely on hearsay and rumor.


-B

PS - s'arright I knew you didn't mean me, I'm still free as a bird subject only to self-flagellation.

 

[Betticus]

Since we're discussing extreme discipline here why not add into the mix extreme self discipline.

If you are exposing your sub to discipline of any kind but especially extreme discipline would it be fair to say that the Dominant should have at least the same experience in his/her past?

If I smoke a pack a day and so does my sub but I demand that she cut down to half a pack immediately shouldn't I at least do the same or quit entirely?

If I insist on branding someone shouldn't I know what the hot iron feels like on my own skin first? Weight loss, exercise, diet, spanking, flogging, bondage, humiliation, psychological manipulation, etc...etc... The same reasoning applies.

If you are going to be dominant and in control of someone else shouldn't you first be in at least as much control of yourself if not more?

 

[Betticus]

I've often wondered how certain elite military teams are trained with the proper amount of discipline but still manage to retain the required self-determination to fulfill the duties required of them.

-B

Part of their selection process is a psychological profile. The majority of candidates for a Spec Forces type job are turned away due to either health or psych reasons or they can't get a security clearance.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Nice try both of you, but a few points of contention.

i've seen the French paras, and compared to the Brit/Aussie SAS, well, you're comparing a soda cracker to filet mignon and swordfish.

A soldier, sailor, Marine, or airman doesn't get trained for the commander of the unit, but rather by the commander of the unit and his subordinate commanders. Up and down the chain of command they train to perform missions directed by the Commander-in-Chief in support of their oaths to "support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic ..." A few individuals up and down said chain forgot a few things and we have the current FUBAR in an Iraqi prison.

The highest position any US military professional can work towards has the title Chief, Joint Chiefs of Staff. You've got to drop a few levels in the bureaucracy to get to the first real commander again. One position i can readily remember goes by Supreme Allied Commander, Europe aka SACEUR.

Now back to the topic of discipline from a military point of view. You started down the right road, but with a few incorrect assumptions. You don't sign up at the Navy version of MEPS, get off a bus, and walk into boat week for SEAL training. i can think of only one circumstance in the US military where John Doe off the street walks into the military scheduled for an exact profession: Warrant Officer Candidate training in the Army at Fort Rucker, Alabama via the "high school to flight school" program. i thought, perhaps, to include the respective acadamies, but when you think the progression all the way out, not even the commissioned officers-to-be have a fine grained focus as to their future positions following graduation.

Every branch: Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines sends their recruits to their respective versions of what the Army calls Basic. You've all seen Hollywood's representation, and some of the bs comes close. Here's where you missed the boat Pure, pardon the pun. The Drill Sergeant's first objective is to strip down the individual, and make her/him realize Rambo doesn't exist. The Drill's midgame involves making "now moldable clay" realize "i have to think and act as a member of the team to complete the mission and survive another day." In the endgame, the Drill returns a few things taken away from the seasoned recruit, to include making decisions in the abscence of explicit instructions. After graduation, recruits go on to some type of Advanced Individual Training based on the needs of the service, demonstrated apptitudes, and lastly, the individuals' desires.

Oddly enough, you don't have to be a Marine, nor a sailor to apply for the SEALs.

As for "thinking outside the box," every commander wants every service member to have that innate skill. If the commander goes down, someone has to pick up and drive on with the mission. The SEALs and other members of the various SpecOps have such a high reputation for doing so because their missions seldom have overt support. Although any military member understands the need to improvise when the plan doesn't survive the first shot down range, most SpecOps go in only with what they can carry and by the sheer necessity of survival get outside the box a helluva lot quicker when things don't go according to plan.

Now match that to food, water, sleep deprivation of a pyl. The pyl wishes to complete the "mission." The PYL changes the parameters, for training purposes, spite, or whim. Of whom would you be more proud ... the pyl that succeeded knowing the task, with set conditions, and a stationary standard; or the pyl that succeeded in spite of Murphy and caprice?

 

[Netzach]

How's he doing?

There's a career opportunity dependent on getting a certain certification in about five days Crunch.

Ask me in two weeks.

I may be a control freak, but I believe in timing.

 

[Pure]

Good info, Angelic.

I didn't address chain of command issues.

Also I see that the focus on elite units may be misguided for reasons bb and you suggest: that they're trained in a degree of improv and independence.

Likewise the 'team' issues were not dealt with.

I'd propose then to focus on the 'grunt' 'leatherneck' or private who's got to climb out of the boat or trench and go after the enemy as commanded.

So, Angelic, describe roughly the methods of training and discipline (in principle, not detail), and where 'self' and 'will' and even 'individual survival' come in or don't.

Thanks for some interesting points.

 

[Quint]

Since we're discussing extreme discipline here why not add into the mix extreme self discipline.

If you are exposing your sub to discipline of any kind but especially extreme discipline would it be fair to say that the Dominant should have at least the same experience in his/her past?

If I smoke a pack a day and so does my sub but I demand that she cut down to half a pack immediately shouldn't I at least do the same or quit entirely?

If I insist on branding someone shouldn't I know what the hot iron feels like on my own skin first? Weight loss, exercise, diet, spanking, flogging, bondage, humiliation, psychological manipulation, etc...etc... The same reasoning applies.

If you are going to be dominant and in control of someone else shouldn't you first be in at least as much control of yourself if not more?

My opinion is that it depends largely upon the dominant's intent. My mom tells me not to smoke but she continues to do so herself because for her, the pros outweigh the cons. Dominants can be equally arbitrary and/or inconsistent. They could do it just for the fun of denying their submissive something that the submissive wanted or was used to. That could be a lesson in itself and has been for me: I used to pop my knuckles. I don't anymore, because T knew I was irritated with the habit and so helped me to stop. He still pops his knuckles. I whine but if it were something that he believed had serious negative effects on him, he would stop.

And your argument sounds much like the theory that dominants should be exposed to all the pain they subject their submissives to so they know what it feels like. Except for switches and those rare dominant masochists, they react quite differently to being on the receiving end, so little practical knowledge is gained. They WANT to dish it out, not take it. Completely different set of reactions.

Does that make sense? Did I answer your argument?

 

[Scarlett_t2]

Since we're discussing extreme discipline here why not add into the mix extreme self discipline.

If you are exposing your sub to discipline of any kind but especially extreme discipline would it be fair to say that the Dominant should have at least the same experience in his/her past?

If I smoke a pack a day and so does my sub but I demand that she cut down to half a pack immediately shouldn't I at least do the same or quit entirely?

If I insist on branding someone shouldn't I know what the hot iron feels like on my own skin first? Weight loss, exercise, diet, spanking, flogging, bondage, humiliation, psychological manipulation, etc...etc... The same reasoning applies.

If you are going to be dominant and in control of someone else shouldn't you first be in at least as much control of yourself if not more?

I would like to give my opinion on this...No I don't want to feel the iron on my own skin....or the flogger, quirt, crop, or any other device. That is not what my soul craves...but it is what my subs do. They need to feel the sting on their flesh...my hands soothing them taking them to a place only they can go to with my help. I do from time to time give myself tasks along with them...to enhance their minds. Give them something to think about. The important thing to remember is a Dom/Domme is a totally different animal that a sub/slave. I am in control of myself...and I am also in control of them....heart and soul...but our needs are very different. That is why we are in the roles we are in. I give them what they need and crave and they give me what I need and crave, but it is two very different things. But this is just MHO.
Scarlett

 

[Betticus]

I would like to give my opinion on this...No I don't want to feel the iron on my own skin....or the flogger, quirt, crop, or any other device. That is not what my soul craves...but it is what my subs do. They need to feel the sting on their flesh...my hands soothing them taking them to a place only they can go to with my help. I do from time to time give myself tasks along with them...to enhance their minds. Give them something to think about. The important thing to remember is a Dom/Domme is a totally different animal that a sub/slave. I am in control of myself...and I am also in control of them....heart and soul...but our needs are very different. That is why we are in the roles we are in. I give them what they need and crave and they give me what I need and crave, but it is two very different things. But this is just MHO.
Scarlett

I'm not necessarily a masochist as I don't want to be branded either. I would however put myself through or have an experienced Domme put me through anything that I would be prepared to do to someone else. I would want to have an in depth understanding of what was going on. I would want to know everything. Also, I wouldn't want to accidentally hit myself with a whip and scream like a sissy. That would be kinda embarassing.

 

[shy slave]

Give them something to think about. The important thing to remember is a Dom/Domme is a totally different animal that a sub/slave. I am in control of myself...and I am also in control of them....heart and soul...but our needs are very different. That is why we are in the roles we are in. I give them what they need and crave and they give me what I need and crave, but it is two very different things. But this is just MHO.
Scarlett

Yes I believe that they are two different animals, both feeding the needs of each other.

In terms of (extreme) discipline in teaching a property i think there is value. It seems to be a way to train as oppose to punish. Subs wish to serve to the best of their ability at all times. Can anyone learn without some form of discipline?, not necessarily structured rules but a framework to grow and develop in.

It comes back to: does the sub need this, is it about pushing boundries or because the Dom can?

Sometimes the outcome of the training may need some explanation prior to it or after in order to keep it out of the mindfuck arena.

In the armed services you join with an expectation that you will endure both physical and mental pain when in training.

A sub can have emotional pain to deal with in order to remember
'you are owned, you are a thing and don't you forget it.' (OSG quote).

What is extreme for one person may not be extreme for another.

Netzach views taking his cigarettes as discipline, it would certainly focus his mind on who was in control.

An anorexic would have little difficulty with having food withheld...but being made to eat in company...that could be viewed as extreme discipline.

I have yet to endure extreme discipline as a sub, but I endured plenty of it as a child (father in armed forces .
We are still working on pushing limits, finding limits and exploring.

At present discipline is not having my hair cut, and talk of it changing back to its natural colour is right up there on the agenda. That will be a harsh and cruel line for me but it will remind me that i belong to Him.

Betticus: The idea of suggesting to Him that He is branded and feels the pain made me smile...but don't think He will think its such a good idea. He is of the same opinion as Scarlett 'We are different but need each other.'

 

[Limbhugger]

Well OSG has posted yet another thread that forces me to bite my tongue.

Anyway...The term "extreme discipline" is, as most all things in our world, relative. What one may consider extreme the other takes in stride. Extreme is in the eye of the beholder and IMHO should be a rare and carefully practiced thing. To constantly or at least routinely push to the extreme does not in my mind make a healthy relationship of give and take, growth, and understanding. But I suppose there are times when "extreme" may be appropriate or even desired beyond the punishment context. I would hope that in these situations the dominant is strong enough, attentive enough, and caring enough to keep close eye on their submissive's physical and emotional well being.

As for the idea that the dominant should experience the same sensations first so as to understand the submissive's experience, I find this completely foriegn to my way of thinking. I suppose I understand the premise of thought (I was a combat leader so I get the don't ask of them anything you won't do yourself thing) but that is vastly different than the dom/sub role.

The dominant is exerting their natural state both becauses it pleases them and becauses it pleases their submissive. The submissive assumes thier natural role both because it pleases them and because it pleases their dominant. Both thrive on the journey for very different yet remarkably similiar reasons.

The dominant needn't have experienced the sensations of being gagged, tethered, flogged, and pissed on to understand the impacts of each and all. They need only concern themselves with the care (physical, mental, and emotional) of their submissive. The dominant in performing their acts and manipulations are not requiring their submissive to do what they are unwilling or unwanting to do simply to be cruel. They are doing it because it is what they both crave and ulitmately (with a proper and caring dominant) is what the sub requires.

Does the submissive need to know what it feels like to render the flesh of another to have a true appreciation of the dominant's role? Should the submissive be forced to play mindfuck with others? Must the submissive be responsible for another's completeness and growth?

We all too often become over concerned with the role and experience of the submissive and forget about the pressures and complexities of the dominant. Consider what the dominant must go through to properly care for their submissives. To watch their physical reactions and know the subtle difference between pushing a limit and crossing it. Imagine the difficulty in having to understand the mind and soul and characteristics of the submissive and then having to determine what is needed and what is best for them. To punish when the desire isn't present but the need arises. To nurture when they just want to be alone but know that their submissive is needing.

The dominant takes on a tremendously demanding role. As much and arguably more so than the submissive. So no, the two needn't expereince each other's sensations to have an understanding of them before performing them. They need only have the understanding of themselves and each other.

Of course this is just my mad ramblings...