EXTRA! Pope Shoots Mouth Off - Jehad Coming

Jenny_Jackson

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060915/ap_on_re_mi_ea/pope_muslims_15

"ISTANBUL, Turkey - Pakistan's legislature unanimously condemned Pope Benedict XVI. Lebanon's top Shiite cleric demanded an apology. And in Turkey, the ruling party likened the pontiff to Hitler and Mussolini and accused him of reviving the mentality of the Crusades.

Across the Islamic world Friday, Benedict's remarks on Islam and jihad in a speech in Germany unleashed a torrent of rage that many fear could burst into violent protests like those that followed publication of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad.

By citing an obscure Medieval text that characterizes some of the teachings of Islam's founder as "evil and inhuman," Benedict inflamed Muslim passions and aggravated fears of a new outbreak of anti-Western protests.

The last outpouring of Islamic anger at the West came in February over the prophet cartoons first published in a Danish newspaper. The drawings sparked protests — some of them deadly — in almost every Muslim nation in the world.

Some experts said the perceived provocation by the spiritual leader of more than a billion Roman Catholics could leave even deeper scars.

"The declarations from the pope are more dangerous than the cartoons, because they come from the most important Christian authority in the world — the cartoons just came from an artist," said Diaa Rashwan, an analyst in Cairo, Egypt, who studies Islamic militancy.

On Friday, Pakistan's parliament adopted a resolution condemning Benedict for making what it called "derogatory" comments about Islam, and seeking an apology. Hours later, the Pakistani Foreign Ministry summoned the Vatican's ambassador to express regret over the pope's remarks Tuesday.

Notably, the strongest denunciations came from Turkey — a moderate democracy seeking European Union membership where Benedict is scheduled to visit in November as his first trip as pope to a Muslim country.

Salih Kapusuz, deputy leader of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's Islamic-rooted party, said Benedict's remarks were either "the result of pitiful ignorance" about Islam and its prophet or, worse, a deliberate distortion.

"He has a dark mentality that comes from the darkness of the Middle Ages. He is a poor thing that has not benefited from the spirit of reform in the Christian world," Kapusuz told Turkish state media. "It looks like an effort to revive the mentality of the Crusades."

"Benedict, the author of such unfortunate and insolent remarks, is going down in history for his words," Kapusuz added. "He is going down in history in the same category as leaders such as Hitler and Mussolini."

Even Turkey's staunchly pro-secular opposition party demanded the pope apologize before his visit. Another party led a demonstration outside Ankara's largest mosque, and a group of about 50 people placed a black wreath outside the Vatican's diplomatic mission.

Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi has tried to defuse anger, saying the pope did not intend to offend Muslim sensibilities and insisting Benedict respects Islam. In Pakistan, the Vatican envoy voiced regret at "the hurt caused to Muslims."

But Muslim leaders said outreach efforts by papal emissaries were not enough.

"We do not accept the apology through Vatican channels ... and ask him (Benedict) to offer a personal apology — not through his officials," Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, Lebanon's most senior Shiite cleric, told worshippers in Beirut.

Rashwan, the analyst, feared the official condemnations could be followed by widespread popular protests. Already there had been scattered demonstrations in several Muslim countries.

"What we have right now are public reactions to the pope's comments from political and religious figures, but I'm not optimistic concerning the reaction from the general public, especially since we have no correction from the Vatican," Rashwan said.

About 2,000 Palestinians angrily protested Friday night in Gaza City. Earlier, Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, of the Islamic militant group Hamas, said the pope had offended Muslims everywhere.

The pope quoted from a book recounting a conversation between 14th-century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II and a Persian scholar on the truths of Christianity and Islam.

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," Benedict said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"

The pope did not explicitly agree with nor repudiate the comment.

In Britain, the head of the Muslim Council, a body representing 400 Muslim groups, said the emperor's views quoted by the pope were bigoted.

"One would expect a religious leader such as the pope to act and speak with responsibility and repudiate the Byzantine emperor's views in the interests of truth and harmonious relations between the followers of Islam and Catholicism," said Muhammad Abdul Bari, the council's secretary-general.

Many Muslims accused Benedict of seeking to promote Judeo-Christian dominance over Islam.

Even Iraq's often divided Shiite and Sunni Arabs found unity in their anger over the remarks, with clerics from both communities criticizing Benedict.

"The pope and Vatican proved to be Zionists and that they are far from Christianity, which does not differ from Islam. Both religions call for forgiveness, love and brotherhood," Shiite cleric Sheik Abdul-Kareem al-Ghazi said during a sermon in Iraq's second-largest city, Basra.

Few in Turkey, especially, failed to pick up on Benedict's reference to Istanbul as Constantinople — the city's name more than 500 years ago — before it was conquered by Muslim Ottoman Turks.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel defended the German-born pope, saying his message had been misunderstood.

"It is an invitation to dialogue between religions and the pope has explicitly urged this dialogue, which I also endorse and see as urgently necessary," she said Friday. "What Benedict XVI makes clear is a decisive and uncompromising rejection of any use of violence in the name of religion.""

The guy thinks he's the great peace maker. Why doesn't he just piss everyone off?? :rolleyes:
 
Jihad

And this is like the 4th fucking thread on this. Does anyone check before posting "news"?
 
Is this yet another "Call us peaceful and calm or we'll blow up your airliners" comment from the RoP?
 
Gringao said:
Is this yet another "Call us peaceful and calm or we'll blow up your airliners" comment from the RoP?

Seems that way to me.

Who is this n00b anyway?

Ishmael
 
MechaBlade said:
Nazi Youth boy offends those of another religion? Surprise, surprise.

Membership in the HY was compulsory as of 1943...he was drafted. Compare and contrast with Gunter Grass, who enthusiastically joined the Waffen SS before becoming a national scold.
 
Well, there is one immutable thing about those vicar of christ guys... they're infallible.
 
You know, I'm wondering if even two people involved in the threads on this subject actually sat down and read the Pope's speech?

Just for grins, here it is. And here is the quote, along with the three paragraphs that deal with it.
I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on - perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara - by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both. It was presumably the emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402; and this would explain why his arguments are given in greater detail than those of his Persian interlocutor. The dialogue ranges widely over the structures of faith contained in the Bible and in the Qur'an, and deals especially with the image of God and of man, while necessarily returning repeatedly to the relationship between - as they were called - three "Laws" or "rules of life": the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Qur'an. It is not my intention to discuss this question in the present lecture; here I would like to discuss only one point - itself rather marginal to the dialogue as a whole - which, in the context of the issue of "faith and reason", I found interesting and which can serve as the starting-point for my reflections on this issue.

In the seventh conversation (*4V8,>4H - controversy) edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably (F×< 8`(T) is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...".
The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practise idolatry.

The entire tenor of the speech is a direct counterpoint to one given by former Iranian President Mohammad Khatami, which main thesis was that the Western Christian world is too tied up in reason ande civilization and should be more interested in spirituality and the East's "moral heritage and transcendental wisdom". The Pope's thesis was that reason and spirituality must work together if they are to work at all.

I defy anyone who reads even as much of the speech as I posted to tell me seriously how the Pope is out to "piss everyone off".
 
Holy Devil said:
Once a Nazi always a Nazi. No surprises. :cool:

He wasn't a Nazi, dickhead, he was drafted into the Hitler Youth. Shall I remind you that a draft is not optional?
 
JazzManJim said:
You know, I'm wondering if even two people involved in the threads on this subject actually sat down and read the Pope's speech?

Just for grins, here it is. And here is the quote, along with the three paragraphs that deal with it.


The entire tenor of the speech is a direct counterpoint to one given by former Iranian President Mohammad Khatami, which main thesis was that the Western Christian world is too tied up in reason ande civilization and should be more interested in spirituality and the East's "moral heritage and transcendental wisdom". The Pope's thesis was that reason and spirituality must work together if they are to work at all.

I defy anyone who reads even as much of the speech as I posted to tell me seriously how the Pope is out to "piss everyone off".


Well Jim, they can't.

Ibn Hazn was one of the last Islamic Theologicians of the school of al Ashari. That shcool came about as a refutation of the debates of 'reason' that were taking place between the Islamic, Jewish, and Christian communities of the period. Those debates exposed the various contradictions in the Qur'an. al Asharis' working hypothesis was that logic and reason cannot be applied to the word of God. That there are no contradictions, only our inability to understand. As this philosophy essentially ended any possibility of dialog, or any need, it took hold and has dominated the schools of Islamic thought since the 12th century.

The Pope, apparently, has decided to attempt to enter into high level dilectic with the world of Islam. The violent reaction of the ignorant masses is probably to be expected. What is going to be interesting is the response of the true Islamic scholars. I'm looking forward to that dialog if it ever occurs.

Ishmael
 
Ishmael said:
The Pope, apparently, has decided to attempt to enter into high level dilectic with the world of Islam. The violent reaction of the ignorant masses is probably to be expected. What is going to be interesting is the response of the true Islamic scholars. I'm looking forward to that dialog if it ever occurs.

I'd very much like to hear that dialogue, too. It is long past its time.

Unfortunately, that dialogue is going to have to cut through the blather of folks like Holy Devil, who'd rather try vainly to be droll than to spend a little bit of their time reading and digesting two speeches.

Blather usually wins, at least in the short run.
 
JazzManJim said:
I'd very much like to hear that dialogue, too. It is long past its time.

Unfortunately, that dialogue is going to have to cut through the blather of folks like Holy Devil, who'd rather try vainly to be droll than to spend a little bit of their time reading and digesting two speeches.

Blather usually wins, at least in the short run.

Hence my reference to the 'ignorant masses.' :)

Ishmael
 
In a related story:

A hand-made grenade exploded near the oldest church in Gaza City, causing no casualties but minor damage to a Christian youth association office in the same compound, police said.
 
MechaBlade said:
Nazi Youth boy offends those of another religion? Surprise, surprise.

Yeah, and it's not like Muslims are sensitive or anything. I'll bet it's been hundreds of years since a Muslim has even uttered the word "jihad."
 
Someone's spoiling for a fight... An out of context quote a from 600 years ago is a good a place as any to start a Jihad.

How long till they start kidnapping all the Papal Envoy's in the Middle East?
 
sweet soft kiss said:
Someone's spoiling for a fight... An out of context quote a from 600 years ago is a good a place as any to start a Jihad.

How long till they start kidnapping all the Papal Envoy's in the Middle East?

They're called "nuncios" and I wouldn't be surprised to see (more) attacks on churches along with them.
 
Gringao said:
They're called "nuncios" and I wouldn't be surprised to see (more) attacks on churches along with them.

Thank you for the correction... I should have know "nuncios". I was raised Catholic.
This could get just as nasty as the cartoon protests.
 
Ishmael said:
The Pope, apparently, has decided to attempt to enter into high level dilectic with the world of Islam. The violent reaction of the ignorant masses is probably to be expected. What is going to be interesting is the response of the true Islamic scholars. I'm looking forward to that dialog if it ever occurs.

Ishmael

While he was in charge of Catholic Doctrine, he spoke a few times about the coming of an Islamic Schism. He may be trying to open up discussion with the mainstream side of Islam and create a working relationship.
 
breakwall said:
While he was in charge of Catholic Doctrine, he spoke a few times about the coming of an Islamic Schism. He may be trying to open up discussion with the mainstream side of Islam and create a working relationship.

That's what it sounds like to me. One can hope.

Ishmael
 
human_male said:
This surprises me, because it's usually so difficult to upset muslims.
On NPR, they referred to the "furor" created by the statements

journalistic humor
 
just pet said:
On NPR, they referred to the "furor" created by the statements

journalistic humor

The really funny thing is that the A-list imams in Mecca, Medinah, Cairo and other Mideast squats routinely vomit up far, far worse in their Friday sermons. If Christians were half as touchy about Islamic slander of our religion, there wouldn't be two bricks on top of each other at any Muslim nation's embassy in the Western world.
 
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