Explaining terms?

[Rustyoznail]

When I was at uni in Melbourne in the very early 90s, we never knew of kebabs- they were a NSW thing. We had souvlaki from the fish and chip shop or went to Lygon St for pizza after rolling out of Nortons or the Clyde!

That is mostly true. Shep has kebab stores run by Middle Eastern staff, where the souvlaki shop around here is run by a Greek family. Melbourne has a large Greek community, so souva’s are all the go.

I’m ashamed that my time in NSW slipped back while I wasn’t watching.

 

[ElectricBlue]

ISouth Australians are a weird bunch and I lived there for some time. They are proud that they are the only state that never accepted convicts and whilst they pretend to be progressive, cultured and artsy-fartsy with their festivals and such, I suspect they wanted to remove the Halal aspect from it.

Pie floater, mate:

https://living.cityofadelaide.com.au/the-pie-floater-adelaides-most-famous-culinary-contribution/

 

[SisterJezabel]

Pie floater, mate:

https://living.cityofadelaide.com.au/the-pie-floater-adelaides-most-famous-culinary-contribution/

Frog cake, maaaate!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/Frog_cakes.jpg/600px-Frog_cakes.jpg

 

[yukonnights]

These are valuable techniques that I've used elsewhere in the story (including the tattoo that I mentioned above) and I did consider them here, but I couldn't find a way to make them work for this particular passage.

Both of the characters already know what a HSP is, so it would feel fake to have them explaining it to one another. A couple of lines further down I do mention that chips are involved, but to properly unpack it for a generic audience would require clarifying what "chips" means in Australia and putting the "halal" part into context, and I can't see how to do that without bogging things down in a chapter that's already running pretty long on exposition.

(The lazy solution is just to switch the HSP out for something else, but that feels like admitting defeat.)

Perhaps there is a tourist standing near and asks what it is? Your characters could have some fun explaining it to them? Maybe they make up a fake before finally telling them the facts.

As a reader, it would bug me to not know what's being discussed — really bug me if I had to go look it up.

 

[Thefireflies]

I doubt many non-Australian readers will know what a HSP is. For terms like this, how do you prefer to have them explained?

Like other Aussies have already said, I had to look up HSP too. I’d heard of them, for the very reason SisterJezabel gave, which was my immediate thought when I looked the term up, but I've never had the pleasure of eating one. However, this thread has made me hungry, despite having a couple of snags earlier

For my one and only chaptered series, I included an author’s note up front of each section, telling the reader:

This story contains a few Australianisms and other minor references to popular culture that may not be entirely clear as to their meaning, but where necessary I’ve tried to explain them as naturally as possible in the text. For any further explanations a simple internet search will most definitely help the reader. However, I think this section is pretty straight forward.

In the second part of the series I spent way too much effort in the author's note trying to explain:

…‘arvo’ - shortened form of ‘afternoon’; ‘the sarvo’ and ‘the sarvie’ - shortened form of ‘This afternoon’. These are quite commonly used during informal conversation in Australia, and maybe I’m pointing out the obvious, but if not, I hope my explanation makes sense. For any further explanations, a simple Google search will most definitely help the reader.

I likely wouldn’t have bothered, except when using such terms around non-Australians leaves people confused, like I’m not speaking English or something

When the Australian themed ‘In a Sunburned Country Event’ came along, I had some fun with Australianisms, especially regional differences in naming the same thing (potato scallop or potato cake? Plus, the billion or so different sized beer glasses with their non-standardised nomenclature in pubs across our various state boundaries) not bothering to explain everything going on, but I did explain the term ‘Map of Tassie’, and ‘cobber’ in my Author’s note, the first term being part of the story's title.

However, in my more recent tales I’ve been less inclined to explain local vernacular, and for one story I received a lovely positive comment from a reader, who said, “…I do need a translator lol! But it made the story authentic and real…”

...and I mention that he buys goon cask wine. If the readers were all Australian I could just use the term goon and everyone would know what I meant, but because a lot of readers are from overseas I added in cask wine to explain what it was as the term goon is only used in Australia.
In another story ibises feature quite prominently. The characters refer to the birds as 'bin chickens'...

My last story I mentioned drinking “…from the goon-bag of cheap red…”, because why not? (I'll tell you why not, because cheap red is nasty! ) I threw a bottle of Bundy in there too for good measure…there’s a theme here lol…now I’m thirsty as well as hungry! Oh, and I mentioned bin chickens, though in real life I'm more likely to refer to them as ‘dump chooks’.

Anyway, for the purpose of this poll, I’ll vote for No note required, I’m happy to google for myself. However, when writing, if I feel a term needs explaining, I’ll try to do so naturally within the text.

URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frog_cake"]Frog cake[/URL], maaaate!

WTF! I’m going to have to ask my South Australian friends about this one!

 

[SisterJezabel]

Like other Aussies have already said, I had to look up HSP too. I’d heard of them, for the very reason SisterJezabel gave...

I had to use solely poor Sam because how can one ploise explain dear Pauline to an international audience...

 

[oggbashan]

Webster's dates the origin of "OK" to 1839, so you can tell "comments" to go hang (or do their research before "correcting").

That is 1839 in Boston US. It was in common use throughout the US by the mid 19th century after use in a presidential campaign.

But it was the use in England in 1916 that they were querying - not saying it was impossible, but that it seemed unlikely.

It would have been common in England by 1918 with the arrival of the doughboys but 1916?

Since the 1890s, many American women had come to England hunting titled husbands. They had brought many American expressions with them, but only into the higher reaches of society - which my character would have known.

The comments weren't wrong. They just doubted what I knew.

 

[Ginlover]

My most recent story starts with a glossary as it’s set in the Vietnam conflict and revolves around soldiers. To me as the writer it would be insulting to the era if I didn’t use the terms/language they use. That said a very kind beta reader got me to remove the term peter pilot which I replaced with co pilot rather than include it in the glossary, his comment was spot on, Don’t use terms just for the sake of it
It made me go through my acronyms to workout which were authentic and which were ones I was showing off as a writer I had done my research. FOB forward operating base was important but peter pilot wasn’t.

 

[Voboy]

I avoid explaining terms immediately in my SF stories. I let the meanings emerge slowly through context. I feel it helps people get immersed, though I don't really know.

I wrote a story once set in a military context in Afghanistan. One of the major reasons why I haven't published it is because I can't figure out how to do so without a glossary, and I don't want to put that up front.

 

[KeithD]

Since the 1890s, many American women had come to England hunting titled husbands.

I think you mean "many rich American women vacationing in England were hunted by titled men without money," don't you?

One of our local girls from here in the Virginia hunt, Nancy Langhorne*, took that route. As late as when I started college, desperate titled Englishmen were making the trip here looking for heiresses (and finding them).

(*Also known as Lady Astor.)

 

[oggbashan]

I think you mean "many rich American women vacationing in England were hunted by titled men without money," don't you?

One of our local girls from here in the Virginia hunt, Nancy Langhorne*, took that route. As late as when I started college, desperate titled Englishmen were making the trip here looking for heiresses (and finding them).

(*Also known as Lady Astor.)

Nope. It was generally the other way around. The women wanted to buy a title.

 

[KeithD]

Nope. It was generally the other way around. The women wanted to buy a title.

Well, sure, that would be the English version of that. The money didn't make any difference at all, of course.

 

[oggbashan]

Well, sure, that would be the English version of that. The money didn't make any difference at all, of course.

On the contrary. Many great English country houses wouldn't exist except for American money.

It was a deal with advantages for both sides. the women got the titles and the social cachet. The men got (sometimes) the money but often the women kept hold of the money and spent it as they, not their husbands, wanted.

Not all were happy. Some American women were unhappy with the man they had married. Some English noblemen could never get their American wives to behave as aristocrats. But a surprising number were genuine love matches.

 

[KeithD]

On the contrary. Many great English country houses wouldn't exist except for American money.

It was a deal with advantages for both sides. the women got the titles and the social cachet. The men got (sometimes) the money but often the women kept hold of the money and spent it as they, not their husbands, wanted.

Not all were happy. Some American women were unhappy with the man they had married. Some English noblemen could never get their American wives to behave as aristocrats. But a surprising number were genuine love matches.

Took a while, but we finally got to the balance on this (from your original post comment).

 

[oggbashan]

Took a while, but we finally got to the balance on this (from your original post comment).

My first post was not about the rights or wrongs of US/UK marriages, just an explanation of why OK was in use when people thought it wouldn't be.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The Wikipedia article on "Halal Snack Pack" makes it sound delicious -- once I figured out that the chips weren't what I call chips. They mentioned that it's similar to "Carne Asada Fries," and I was suddenly hungry.

Yeah, that's part of the challenge here, trying to explain what a HSP is just opens the door to more explanations.

"don't get distracted by the 'halal', plenty of non-Muslim people eat it"

"not that kind of 'chips', they're like what Americans would call potato fries, about 1 cm thick"

"a centimetre is about two-fifths of an inch"

Their article fails to explain why folks in Adelaide call it "AB."

South Australia has a few linguistic differences from the rest of the country, though I don't think their Teutonic influences explain this one...

South Australians are a weird bunch and I lived there for some time. They are proud that they are the only state that never accepted convicts and whilst they pretend to be progressive, cultured and artsy-fartsy with their festivals and such, I suspect they wanted to remove the Halal aspect from it. AB means either afterbirth, abortion or atomic bomb, depending on who you talk to!

It's definitely one of those "tastes better than it looks" dishes. I could see how the look of meaty bits and red/brown sauce could lead to somebody calling it "afterbirth"/"abortion" as an attempt to gross people out, and from there you could get "AB" and then "Atomic Bomb" as a more socially acceptable backronym. But I'm just speculating.

And, yeah, some people think eating "halal" will turn them Muslim or something. Bad news, air and water are also halal... though maybe not Adelaide tap water.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I had to use solely poor Sam because how can one ploise explain dear Pauline to an international audience...

I think every country has some version of Pauline, more's the pity.

 

[ChloeTzang]

I avoid explaining terms immediately in my SF stories. I let the meanings emerge slowly through context. I feel it helps people get immersed, though I don't really know.

I wrote a story once set in a military context in Afghanistan. One of the major reasons why I haven't published it is because I can't figure out how to do so without a glossary, and I don't want to put that up front.

Look at how Tom Kratman handles a glossary in his Carreraverse series of books. He does the glossary as an appendix. Explaining all the military terminology. It’s not uncommon.

 

[ChloeTzang]

I had to use solely poor Sam because how can one ploise explain dear Pauline to an international audience...

Pauline is uniquely Australian and you’d be a poorer place without her adding a little contrast and diversity of thought. On the other hand, more than one might be a bit much...

 

[SisterJezabel]

My most recent story starts with a glossary as it’s set in the Vietnam conflict and revolves around soldiers. To me as the writer it would be insulting to the era if I didn’t use the terms/language they use. That said a very kind beta reader got me to remove the term peter pilot which I replaced with co pilot rather than include it in the glossary, his comment was spot on, Don’t use terms just for the sake of it
It made me go through my acronyms to workout which were authentic and which were ones I was showing off as a writer I had done my research. FOB forward operating base was important but peter pilot wasn’t.

I read your story yesterday and loved it. I only skimmed over the glossary and did not refer back to it, despite not understanding some of the acronyms. I found this did not detract from an amazing story that saw me reach for a hanky!

 

[Ginlover]

I read your story yesterday and loved it. I only skimmed over the glossary and did not refer back to it, despite not understanding some of the acronyms. I found this did not detract from an amazing story that saw me reach for a hanky!

Ahh, wow, thank you. And I really glad the terminology didn’t take away from the story. It’s quite a precious one to me as it is based on real events and the original is deeply moving and powerful.

 

[SisterJezabel]

Ahh, wow, thank you. And I really glad the terminology didn’t take away from the story. It’s quite a precious one to me as it is based on real events and the original is deeply moving and powerful.

I don't think I left a comment in the end (That's my NY resolution to comment on all that I read!) but I would love to hear more as you hinted there were.

 

[Emirus]

I don't think I left a comment in the end (That's my NY resolution to comment on all that I read!) but I would love to hear more as you hinted there were.

I always leave a comment, having said which there are probably times when I haven’t but can’t remember, because I think the writer likes to know if I’ve enjoyed the story or not. I always put more than “great story” because I would like to know why someone liked or didn’t like a story of mine and I assume the majority of writers think the same way. But I can understand why some readers only leave one sentence comments.

When I first began reading these stories, and when I began writing, I was reluctant to leave comments because I didn’t feel I had the experience as a writer to write something comprehensive. So at that time I did tend to put something short. Although I’ve improved as a writer I still want constructive comments because I know I can still improve and I think every writer should think that way.

The only perfect writer is an idiot because only an idiot would believe they are perfect.

 

[MetaBob]

I think it was the late William Zinsser who advised: 'Never send your reader off to find a dictionary. They may never come back.'

Harlan Ellison: "I will use big words from time to time, the meanings of which I may only vaguely perceive, in hopes such cupidity will send you scampering to your dictionary: I will call such behavior 'public service'."

 

[SisterJezabel]

I always leave a comment, having said which there are probably times when I haven’t but can’t remember, because I think the writer likes to know if I’ve enjoyed the story or not. I always put more than “great story” ...

His usual comment is 'Great Story 5*'

I do often go back a day or so later and comment, but I want to start leaving more comments and, I suppose, giving more feedback in the hope it might encourage others to do that to me.