Excusing Americans

[Ishmael]

Re: Re: Re: A mixture of many things:

and that's wannabe you arrogant, egoistic ex-colonial...

I find the behavior of the 'former' colonial powers to be quite uncivilized dear chap. Expecting America to come in and fill their shoes. Rather like old men that are unhappy that a younger man won't fuck their wives because they're incapable of doing the job themselves anymore.

Ishmael

 

[bluespoke]

Man ya'll need to see Americans on vacation in foreign lands. Rude, loud, demanding assholes. Not our best foot forward.

I have been in a lot of different places at, different times working for the DOD. Not always easily recognizable as an American. I have seen the way these Ambassadors of good will treat the locals. Not good. I remember one family getting very loud (well the dad, not the whole family) in a very nice, and small Italian restaurant in Italy. He was pissed because his overweight adolescent son couldn't get a damned chesse buger.

The same isn't true of your average GI overseas. He/She tries to fit in, learns some of the lingo, eats the local food. They at least try to act a little decent.

I have also seen Americans do their best to put their best foot forward when visiting overseas. It just take a few to ruin it for everyone.

This personal touch added to what our Government does or doesn't do... It is tough to be an American in some places in the world.

Hit the nail on the head teach. It's what people overseas see of Americans when they are in their country.

That said, anyone reading the threads here can see a completely different face of the US except when p_p_man get's to you!

If people abroad, and I include Britain, would take the time to get to know the people who come into their country.

If some of those 'American Ambassadors' were a little quieter and less rude.

If we all listened instead of shouting, the world might view us all differently.

 

[Ishmael]

Thanks Ishmael........... I read a lot more than I post, but when I read threads that you are in the middle of, I usually find myself in agreement with you.

That, of course, is probably because we are both over-40 white males......hahaha...... "They ignore us..... they insult us........ but they still send us the bill......."

Yep, there is always the bill.

Ishmael

 

[WhiteRose]

Fortunately, not all Americans who travel abroad fit into that negative category. For me, and the rest of my family, getting the most out of traveling in foreign lands means getting to know the people, studying the language (albeit, that doesn't mean speaking it fluently, but at least enough to get around), learning about the culture before we even leave the States, forsaking the 5-star hotels to stay in local inns or homes that offer room & board, visiting the out-of-the-ways spots that the locals recommend as well as seeing the more well-known tourist spots.

If you don't get involved in the cultures you're visiting, all you'll come back with are the things you expected to see before you even left home...so what's the point in traveling? France - paintings and vineyards. Italy - pasta and ruins. That tells you nothing about the people, about what makes them tick, their beliefs, what makes them special. Learning about the differences between your culture and theirs, while finding the similarities is what makes them REAL and not just two-dimensional "textbook" examples.

Every culture and every country out there (and here) has beauty to offer, and every one of them also has ugliness. But if you spend your time concentrating on the ugliness rather than searching for the beauty, then you're missing out on the more important stuff.

But likewise, while there are rude American travelers, so too are there rude foreign travelers who come to America. I spent 4 1/2 months in Tehran in 1978-79 while my father was working over there on an American-sponsored project working WITH the Iranian military (the funny thing was, he'd come home complaining that rather than concentrating on work, most of the time they just wanted to ask him all sorts of questions about life in America). After all the curfews and riots and bombings and stonings that went on over there all around us (and being booted out of their country), I came home, finished high school, started college, and found student riots on my own college campus by Iranian students who had come to our country to take advantage of our superior education system, and did nothing but bitch and complain at all hours of the day and night about what our government was doing in their lands and that we had no right to be there at all (erm we were invited in by the Shah...) Talk about rubbing salt in the wounds.

 

[cottager]

I think the root of the problem is that most Americans genuinely believe that everyone else wants to be American.

Starting from that position it is impossible for you to understand anyone else. Add to that your desire to impose your ways on the rest of the world (Vietnam, Greneda, Cuba, Chile, Iraq, etc etc etc)
and you have a redipe for trouble.

 

[bluespoke]

...you have a redipe for trouble.

A redipe, very dangerous things them redipes!

I wish all tourists, American and others, in all countries were like WhiteRose.

Life would be so much friendlier!

 

[cottager]

A redipe, very dangerous things them redipes!

I wish all tourists, American and others, in all countries were like WhiteRose.

Life would be so much friendlier!

Never could get those high c's

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[badasschick]

I prefer getting to understand people rather than just hating mindlessly and blindly. Most Americans do. You have to remember that every single one of us (unless we're fullblooded Natives came from another country, whether it be in our generation or 10 generations ago. Why? Because most of our ancestors were being persecuted in those other countries and they came HERE to find a better life, and for the most part, they did. Hm...yes, that DOES make me proud to be an American. [/B]

Um, this doesn't exactly apply to about 20% of the American population.

So, would it be OK to say that certain aspects of America do NOT make me proud, and quite understanding of other world citizen's views?

'Cause last time I checked, my ancestors didn't come here because of persecution. They were persecuted here.

 

[sexy-girl]

first off i dont hate america or americans


my friend recently went to america for a holiday and she said that americans were the most friendly people you could ever meet (she said you didnt get sarcasm though )


the reason there is perhaps a dislike to americans is your goverment and perhaps that sometimes americans are viewed as naive about world affairs (not saying its true or not because everyone here seems pretty clued in)

 

[WriterDom]

Re: Re: Re: A mixture of many things:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by WhiteRose

Don't be bitter just because most of that list is true
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe it is but what I refrained from mentioning is that the constant repeating of it to the rest of us can only mean that you either don't believe it yourselves, you know like the person who's always saying they're the best person in the company at their job and they'll never be replaced, or Americans haven't yet come to terms with learning humility...

ppman

This coming from someone who, almost everyday, sometimes several times a day, starts a "Bash America" thread, usually from the same old tired handful of angles.

You're obsessed, Dude. Take advantage of your free health care and get some help. Or at least go kick over the headstones of your ancestors who didn't have a big enough pair to cross the pond.

 

[WhiteRose]

Not to belittle your experience in Tehran, but the Shah was not a popular man, he was overthrown for a reason. There's a great deal of writing on American policy in Iran, but he encroached on the power of the people in Iran, thrologically, socially, politically. Khomeini was exiled, remember? You were there at the request o an unpopular leader who by most accounts, only remainded in power for as long as he did by courting foreigners and milking the oil industry. Most of the policies established by the Shah were completely reversed. Remember, he was not an elected leader, whatever else can be said of Iran, it is now a Republic, governed by elected leaders. Even the Ayatollah must be elected by the clerics, similar to the manner in which the College of Cardinals must elect a Pope.

Oh, I agree with you! The Shah tried to force western ways on a people who did not want it...or need it (for the most part, though there were thousands, at least, who were very much for modernizing the country) Their social beliefs and traditions are dictated by their religious beliefs. Unfortunately, what most people saw of their country were religious fanatics screaming, rioting, igniting bombs, destroying their own property, etc. because that's what was portrayed on the worldwide media.

What the rest of the world DIDN'T see were the quiet streets of Tehran where women sat on their front steps chatting with their neighbors, kids playing games in the narrow passageway, men tending their sheep and camels, shopkeepers rolling up their gates every morning to open for business..***** going on as it has gone on in that part of the country for eons. These people were NOT out there rioting and carrying rifles. You could be walking along the most westernized posh street in Tehran in the Niavaran district, turn a corner into an alley, and it was like 200 (even a thousand) years had just vanished. <-- THAT is one of the great beauties of that country. Time stood still in those places for those people...though much of that has changed now...but not completely. The people were just...the people. Not the government. I only wish we'd had more time to spend there and experience more of their culture. My cousins were lucky enough to spend about a month in Iran about 10 years before we got there, and they got to have that experience.

We didn't live surrounded by Americans. We had an apartment owned by the Iranian family who lived downstairs. They had us down for dinner and we had them up to eat with us sometimes. There was an atrium that ran from the ground floor to our ceiling surrounded by glass, and their daughter's piano was positioned directly below mine. Sometimes, we'd play the same piece of Mozart together at the same time. She had a little brother the same age as my brother, and they played together on most days. The mother was shy, but always very kind and quick to smile. Their father was a lawyer for the Shah...not the best choice of professions at that time. We found out later when everything got so bad, that he'd gotten his famiily out to relatives in Ohio, but he couldn't save himself. He was executed. Still makes me hurt for their family.

Most of the wealthy Iranians had homes or property either in France, England, or the States, and were trying desperately to get out of the country when we left. The day we left, they picked us up at 4:30 in the morning and drove us down to Mehrabad Airport. Three hours we waited outside in a snowstorm because it was SO crowded with Iranians trying to get out that we couldn't even get in the building. We ended up hoping on a military airlift (heh ever ride in a C-5? Seats face backwards and they don't recline, and if you can't work a military can opener, you don't eat. Just some military trivia )

My Iranian language teacher had been a dancer in the royal court and had instructed the Shah's son on procedure during his official coming of age ceremony. She had a house in France and had already moved most of her belongings there when things erupted. My Iranian culture teacher was an American woman who had married an Iranian man. I don't know what happened to either of them. It's the common people that we never hear about during a war. Just politics and destruction.

Um, this doesn't exactly apply to about 20% of the American population.

So, would it be OK to say that certain aspects of America do NOT make me proud, and quite understanding of other world citizen's views?

'Cause last time I checked, my ancestors didn't come here because of persecution. They were persecuted here.

I agree with you too about the persecution here, although a lot of the Africans were kidnapped and brought over by the French too, to work on their plantations...and yes, mostly in horrible and unforgiveable circumstances. Fact is, it was the American government that illegally arrested Queen Liliuokalani and held her captive in her own palace while claiming Hawai'i and almost completely wiping out our culture and language (my birthmom's a Hawaiian native...at least Clinton FINALLY acknowledged that it was an illegal takeover and formally apologized for it, not that that makes up for anything, but it's a start). And yes, it was the American government who completely fucked over the Natives of the mainland by failing up uphold any of the treaties they made with them (did the same thing in Hawai'i btw), but if you look at the historical timeline, all of these happened VERY recently.

American is pretty much a new nation, only a couple of hundred years old. Colonized by the English, French, Spaniards, and a few others who brought their traditions and beliefs with them... It took us some time to become "Americans", to figure out what we wanted to keep from the old ways and blend them in a way that encompasses a huge mix of different cultures. No, we haven't gotten it quite right yet, but we're working on it, and we make mistakes, but we're learning from them. Sometimes it's not that obvious right away, but we're at least heading in the right direction.

 

[WhiteRose]

the reason there is perhaps a dislike to americans is your goverment and perhaps that sometimes americans are viewed as naive about world affairs (not saying its true or not because everyone here seems pretty clued in)

*lol* Sometimes WE don't like our government! But the nice thing is, we can legally say that

 

[CelestialBody]

 

[WhiteRose]

I think I missed the point of your posts...

hehe I know, I talk too much. Basically what I was saying is that nobody likes to be stereotyped, ESPECIALLY when that stereotype is negative, not researched, and not a proven fact. And that everyone should be proud of whatever nation they live in...period. Every government has faults, and they also have positives.

But the "government" does not equal "the people". People are pretty much the same everywhere. Sure we have different social beliefs and traditions, but human nature is pretty much the same worldwide, and if we could get away from blaming whole groups of people and realize that nations and cultures are made up of individual people, it'd go a long way toward getting rid of prejudice.

 

[Pamela]

I'll be slapped around for this I'm sure. And, WhiteRose, I don't mean you any disrespect.

I can truly say I admire how patrioc your country is. I wish mine was half that patriotic.

The only thing that bothers me is the lack of knowledge there is towards your neighbours to the north. You even mentioned that you studied other countries in school, but Canada wasn't mentioned. I remember one instance, my city was having a basketball tournament, and teams were coming from all over the US. It was May, beautiful weather. They showed up in ski-doo suits! I shit you not! I'm sure every Canadian here has a few stories like this.

All I wish is that you knew more about your northern neighbours.

(not you specifically, I am generalizing, for that I apologize)

 

[WhiteRose]

I'll be slapped around for this I'm sure. And, WhiteRose, I don't mean you any disrespect.

I can truly say I admire how patrioc your country is. I wish mine was half that patriotic.

The only thing that bothers me is the lack of knowledge there is towards your neighbours to the north. You even mentioned that you studied other countries in school, but Canada wasn't mentioned. I remember one instance, my city was having a basketball tournament, and teams were coming from all over the US. It was May, beautiful weather. They showed up in ski-doo suits! I shit you not! I'm sure every Canadian here has a few stories like this.

All I wish is that you knew more about your northern neighbours.

(not you specifically, I am generalizing, for that I apologize)

I agree with you, and it's scary how many Americans don't comprehend that both Canada and Mexico are considered foreign countries, but think that Hawai'i is. That's one of the many failings of our school system...but I learned because my parents made it a point to teach me and kept maps and globes and encyclopedia sets available around the house, and on our long cross-country roadtrips, my activities included learning the states, their capitals, major cities and rivers on a big wooden U.S. puzzle (though I was confused for awhile why Wyoming wasn't really orange...hey, I was five). And the presidents...eww I had a hard time learning all of those in order, and couldn't list them for ya today at all

But on the other hand, I have some friends up in B.C. (just across the border in the Vancouver area), and they never learned what state is right below them either (Washington, for those who don't know ), and for some reason they keep getting Florida and California mixed up, so it's NOT a national issue, it's about simple education.

I remember one instance, my city was having a basketball tournament, and teams were coming from all over the US. It was May, beautiful weather. They showed up in ski-doo suits! I shit you not! I'm sure every Canadian here has a few stories like this.

*lol* My MOM does this when she visits Colorado (where I live). She has this image stuck in her head about it always freezing here and us not having modern conveniences. Yah, I know, she's odd.

All I wish is that you knew more about your northern neighbours.

Well, I was thinking of heading up north to protest your king outlawing the penguins, but I wasn't sure if your igloos had indoor plumbing.

 

[Pamela]

Just for the record.....I know that Alaska is to the south of me!!!!

LMAO!!!!

Actually....its Montana!

Considering that the three North American countries could almost possibly be one someday....we better get to know each other better!

BTW.....I get the indoor plumbing installed next week!! I had to buy new snow chains for the truck! Its almost May....I better get them on soon!!!

 

[badasschick]

All I wish is that you knew more about your northern neighbours.

(not you specifically, I am generalizing, for that I apologize)

Your post reminds me of a teacher I had in Jr. High. He was Canadian and for extra credit on tests and quizzes he would have the name of a person at the top of the page and the question..."Dead or Canadian?"

I learned a lot about famous Canadians from him.

 

[LukkyKnight]

No Irish Need Apply

...'Cause last time I checked, my ancestors didn't come here because of persecution. They were persecuted here.

Heh - mine came when the potato famine decimated Ireland, and arrived to find Irish and Catholic was tantamount to being Black. The KKK was the most visible purveyor of organized persecution, but it was an invasion of immigrants that many of the already-established citizens were decidedly opposed to.

First and foremost we have a sucky name. America is the whole hemisphere, we share NORTH America with Canada and Mexico, and while "United States" was a clever marketing slogan for its day, it's a sucky name. Your first-class countries have names like Canada, Italy, Egypt, or Atlantis, not something you have to shorten to an acronym.

Then look at who travels overseas. It's hardly a representative slice of the population of central north america - primarily you've got the decidedly wealthy, the broke students searching for themselves, corporate climbers, and the military.

Then there's TV - my gawd, if we ever do meet extra-terretrials you can bet they'll think we're worth ridiculing.

The people living in the U.S.A. represent one of the most diverse imaginable amalgamations of cultures and personalities - is it any wonder that it's easy for anybody to find SOMEBODY here that epitomizes what they dislike? Remember, a lot of the people who didn't choose to move here PREFER where they are - is it really any surprise the vocal among them have a low opinion of folks in the U.S.?

 

[Pamela]

Your post reminds me of a teacher I had in Jr. High. He was Canadian and for extra credit on tests and quizzes he would have the name of a person at the top of the page and the question..."Dead or Canadian?"

I learned a lot about famous Canadians from him.

That sounds so neat! I wish I had a teacher like that!

Did your class get many right? Just curious!

(I'm not sure if I would have!)

 

[badasschick]

That sounds so neat! I wish I had a teacher like that!

Did your class get many right? Just curious!

(I'm not sure if I would have!)

Not sure about the rest of the class, but I was floored to know Peter Jennings was Canadian, cause I knew he wasn't dead.

 

[amiss]

I NEVER said I was expressing MY opinion of Americans. I have yet to express my opinion of Americans in this thread. Largely because my opinion of "Americans" does not exist. I tend to "judge" people individually. And since I have yet to meet the entire populace of the United States, I can hardly come to a definitive conclusion on the entire nation.

I have not reneged on my opinions. I was simply hypothesizing as to why OTHERS seem to hold such negative views of the U.S. Perhaps I'm not the only one who needs to get to know people as human beings and individuals, and do a little homework.

(Note: I know I seem catty, but I'm frustrated by having to justify myself again!)

Well, that's too bad. My response was to YOUR first post in this thread. You did state those opinions then came back in a second post to temper your words and clarify that you didn't necessarily believe them, though apparently on the page before, you did. At least that was the impression several of us got from it. You judged our entire country's education level by your one friend and stated your opinion on it without doublechecking the veracity of your conclusion.

I don't know...maybe get to know us as human beings and individuals, do a little homework, separate reality from propaganda BEFORE you come up with an opinion? (and no, this isn't just aimed at you, but at every non-American who forms opinions about the American people without getting to know us first.) If you have questions about the U.S., just ask. Most of us are pretty open to questions, but just like Canadians, we don't like to be attacked by people who are stereotyping us without knowing the facts.

There are some pretty horrid stereotypes about Canadians too, remember? "Nothing in Canada but sluts and hockey players." Is that true? Of course not! But would you be happy if the whole world believed that of Canadians as a whole? I don't think so.

 

[Jimi]

Yet another Over-40 opinion...

Can an over 40 white female join in on this party of agreement?

Except on that cheese thing. Forget BOTH the frog cheese and the California cheddar. You need real Wisconsin cheese, from America's Dairyland.

Yeah, I also pretty much agree with Tejano & Ishmael on many issues, with the exception of the Modern G.O.P.

Wisconsin or Vermont cheddar is good - but our Ontario Extra Old (3-5 yrs.) will kick arse, IMHO!

Since we're not being at all xenophobic in this thread...

Just an observation - Americans in general have become MUCH more aware and knowledgable on World affairs since circa 1973 - when the lightbulb went on that the USA is no longer self-sufficient.

That was indeed a painful lesson to learn for a populace justifiably proud of Country.

 

[WhiteRose]

I NEVER said I was expressing MY opinion of Americans...I was simply hypothesizing as to why OTHERS seem to hold such negative views of the U.S.

Ahh, well perhaps we didn't see that clearly enough in your first post, and for that I do apologize. Perhaps it was merely our cultural differences and I guess if it hadn't come in context right after pp_man's endlessly caustic remarks, I might have looked at your post differently and seen what you were trying to say, though I did read it through a number of times. I apologize for the misunderstanding.