Evil done in the name of God(dess)(s)(es), is the religion responsible?

[KillerMuffin]

I've been doing a bit of reading in various folklore and mythology. Particularly celtic and native american (to encompass both continents).

Celts whacked off heads because the seat of human power rested within a head. Incas sacrificed children to make the lands fertile. Pawnee sacrificed adolescent women to the Morning Star, same purpose. Charmlemagne had 5000 people beheaded cause they wouldn't convert to Christianity. Hitler wanted to preserve the master race. The Taliban (nuff said).

I've also been thinking about my own behavior and watching some opinions on lit, particularly those of the atheists. I don't like Christians because they don't follow God's teaching. Most atheists hold the same opinion, from what I've noticed.

Supposing there was a God of some sort out there and the teachings passed down were perverted by followers for their own gain (aren't they all?). Those who are outside of that religion would judge the God by the actions of the followers, not by the God him/erself? Do people outside of a religion ever look at the religion itself or just at the activites of those that profess to follow it?

Islam is a very good example. If all we had to go off were the Koran and the activities of the Taliban, how many informed, intelligent, enlightened people would look past the Taliban to see what the Koran actually said? How many people would look past the atrocious way East Indian and Chinese women are valued to the the Hindu and Taoist religions themselves? Can anyone see past Jerry Fallwell to Christianity itself?

Can a religion even be separated from the people who profess to follow it?

 

[Never]

Yes, and No.

People will kill for religion because somewhere in that religion it said it was okay to kill. Most major religion could easily be interpreted as meaning 'Be kind to your brother - and kill those group of disbelievers down the street.'

Sacrifice off all kind is common in the older religions and it's rather obvious that a religion survives because its people do. For the most part that means conquering neighboring people (with their religions) or defeating invaders - both of which require a military. The reason Christianity is the world's dominant religion is because it is so aggressive and because violence and fanaticism is encouraged.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[fgarvb1]

in one word:YES

 

[CreamyLady]

Yes, I believe so. Since I left the Roman Catholic church, I've met many wonderful, devout Catholics; far more than I met when I was being forced to attend Mass.

The same goes for many Evangelicals and other Christians. I've met some wonderful people, who truly believe and attempt to practice what they believe is right. I have never had a quarrel with sincerity, and I wish there were more sincere people.

There are always fanatics, but I don't think they cause as much damage as those who really don't believe in anything but themselves and their own agenda (the Taliban, for instance). Since they really don't believe, and don't practice what is clearly handed down, they are, to me, true nonbelievers, and not likely to honor the beliefs of others.

Certainly they hold individual rights and human life cheap, in direct opposition to God. They, truly, represent the Adversary, and should be rightly feared.

 

[Phoenix]

I will kill for my GOd err Godess

I kill in the name of only one goddess and that is the godess of..........LAVA. Muwhwhahahahhaaha* that's right I kill only for a LAVA GODESS.




* MUWHWHAHAHHAHA and other evil laughs trademarked by J of the Phoenix twins. Any such copyright infrigments shall result in repeats wedgies for men and spankings for women. Viewer discretion be advised.

 

[Madame Pandora]

I'm hopping on the intelligent thread while it lasts

No.

And here is why I think so.

Most religions involve something very important: the relationship of an individual soul with whatever spiritual diety they choose to accept as "God." In my own opinion there is only one God no matter how many hats people try to put her in...but that's not important for the argument.

But, you put more than three or four people together and you get a "mob mentality." An "us against them" thing. No matter how innocent it seems...too many people are willing to do whatever the rest of the herd does. They crave acceptance. You've seen examples of it on this very board.

So, instead of allowing each individual to have their own personal relationship with whatever they call God, people are so ready to hop in and dictate right and wrong.

Here is my problem with Christianity as it sits in the world today. Most people ignore the major lessons of their own scriptures because they only want what supports their own beliefs. If you want to assume the Bible's true...fine. Plenty of Greeks thought their mythology was true. No problem.

There is an old joke about a man in a flood who refuses the help of rescuers and tells each one that GOD will save him. When he drowns he asks God why he didn't save him and God says, "I sent you two boats and a helicopter. What more did you want me to do?"

I think we make our own miracles. I think we follow our own paths. And I think more people are interested in justifying their own actions than they are in exploring their own spirituality.

An organized religion's doctrines will never survive those of its followers. Just as no nation's charters will ever survive the ignorance of its general populace.

This is why GW is our next president.



MP

 

[naudiz]

I would like to think people are intelligent and open minded enough to realize an individual's personal beliefs are not necessarily a photocopied version of some larger faction's. Religions are made of people, and 'people' are made up of individuals. Even with six billion of us in the world, no two of us are exactly alike, nor do we think exactly alike or behave exactly alike. Yes, mob mentality happens all too often, but I'm an optimist - I like to think that deep down all people aren't clones to the popular ideal.

The deity in question is what it is regardless of what its followers do in its name. Even if you're an atheist that holds true, doesn't it? The deity fails to exist in your world view regardless of how many people insist it's real. So if the deity is what it is regardless, then religion is strictly an ordeal related to groups of people, who are individuals, who have free will in what they believe and practice. Choosing to mindlessly go along with the mob is still a choice.

I'd like to think that was simple logic, but it gets tricky. How many people were raised in deeply religious families, and because of that religion were emotionally, mentally, and even physically abused? How many people grow up to associate religion (and the deity in question) with repression and abuse? When they meet someone who believes in the God that religion claims to serve, who can blame them for the assumptions they make? I sure don't. Even when I'm being judged unfairly, I try to remember that there are reasons and that it isn't personal because these people aren't even seeing me. They're seeing every self-proclaimed Christian that ever did them wrong. That's why I hesitate to call myself a Christian. It's just a label, and what it has come to represent doesn't describe who I am.

Can a religion even be separated from the people who profess to follow it? That depends on how religion is being defined. I think that religion is the collective belief of the people independent of the deity. Can it be separated from the people? Probably not. Can it be separated from the individual? Surely. It can, but does it? That depends on the individual doing the separating. People are going to see what they want to see, and even though I'd like to believe the best of everyone, too many people slap the faces of their past over yours, and that's what they see regardless of what you do or say.

 

[ravenna]

Can Christianity be separated from its followers?
Can Christianity be separated from the Apostle Paul?
From the twelve disciples? (There go the Gospels.)
From its founder? (Definitely not, given even the /name/, but...)

Here's a thought:

/A religion cannot be separated from its leaders' actions/.

Well, it can, but generally it's separated by splintering off a new one (hello, Martin Luther!).

Note: Christianity doesn't /have/ an overall leader. This is perhaps much to its benefit. Certainly it's better than some Popes were (*coughcough* Borgia *cough*).

Now, what people know /of/ the religion is a different matter; most people, like it or not, will judge the religion by what they see of it. The lucky religions have people on the street every day being living examples; the unlucky religions have Halloween stories.

Some of these people are good examples. Some aren't. At least there's a range, though.

Or maybe I'm just a freak. I didn't leave Christianity growing up because of people not practicing what they preached; I left because I read the Bible and disagreed strongly with parts of what it said. Modern Christianity tends to gloss over those parts; I've never really been able to. Most of the /people/ I knew that practiced it were genuinely good, kind people - I remember not being able to understand how they could reconcile that with the book that formed the basis of their religion!

 

[Juspar Emvan]

Nope

Sad, 'cause I'd like to understand the worlds religions better.

This, I think, is a question in sociology, not theology. If the teachings originally handed down by the 'god', have been perverted - and they all have - then how can the outsider see the god as anything other than what is illustrated by its followers and teachings.

On the other hand, perhaps there is a god out there and it is possible to commune directly with it (without frying your brain as I would suggest would happen if you got an answer from the creator.) Then perhaps it is possible to learn direct. But that probably makes you a prophet, so you'd get a new religion.

 

[kathy stl]

Hi guys. Haven't posted anything in a long time but here I am. Hope this is semi understandable.

Nothing scares me more than religion. Cuss a thousand things I have done in my life are condemned by somebody's religion or other. I am in deep doo doo when they get around to enforcing all them rules more carefully. Yeah, I know, the foregiveness thing. But they only hand that out in heaven babes.

All that thing about can religions stick to what their god really was trying to say? well maybe on some planet, but so far not here. So I am not so much caring whether it can be done, since it just never is. And you may say that you or someone as a person sticks to the idea, but that is a belief, not a religion right? doesn't a religion haff to have followers and organization? I mean isn't that what we mean be that word? and I am scared of followers and organizations.

But there is this little story I like. I bet it is from the Hebrews but probably every religion claims it.

A man has lived long enough to see his family killed or die of disease, his village swept away by war, and thousands die of famine. Looking over his desolated home he finally cracks, falls to he knees and screams, "Oh my God, I have seen disease and war and terror all around me and all my life! Why God, why don't you send someone to help us!"

And in his head he hears a calm quiet voice answer, "But I have sent someone my Child, I've sent you."

Peace.

 

[Rainlover]

There was no evil in the world until Religion created it.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

Religion has been used always to comfort and control the masses. Along with the state, whose ultimate goal is also control of the masses, the most aggregious acts have been perpetrated on humanity. Note nowadays how the Liberal left battles to keep religion out, so that the individual is beholded to and bribed by the state and the religious right (and left, I am afraid) controls and instigates violence to pursue goals the state is not inclined to benefit.

So it has always been and always will be until individuals can separate the spiritual world from the real world and act accordingly in each. For too long church and state have blurred this line to further their aims and goals. Spirituality is good. Organized religion is not so good. But, I could be wrong. I will later reflect upon this and review some history. It is a good topic.

 

[Nobody Special]

WEll I guess I don't have to go on with my lil speach now that some of my thoughts have been presented by somany here on lit.. Thanks

E

 

[Rainlover]

A couple of thousand years ago, right after the last big ice age, when people crawled out of their caves and started crawling into their cities and towns, there was a farmer named Bob.
Bob wasn't his real name. I'm just using the name Bob to protect his identity.
Now Bob lived just outside of town. The domestication of animals was just starting to catch on, and old Bob was on the cutting edge. He had some chickens, some goats, some cows, and a donkey.
What Bob didn't have was a wife. Toiling sunup to sundown in the fields didn't leave a guy much time for barhopping, and computer dating was still way off in the future.
One day, Bob is plowing his field, standing behind his donkey. For some reason, the sight of the donkey's hindquarters does something to Bob. Blood starts to flow. You know what happens.
Bob gets a boner. Then, Bob gets an idea.
Bob calls out whoa, or whatever word you used to stop your donkey back then. When the donkey stopped, Bob walked up close behind it, pulled up his toga, and started fucking his donkey.
Now at this point in human history, there's no evil, right? No one's gotten around to writing any books -- good or bad -- so there's absolutely nothing wrong with fucking your donkey. Bob's going at it, and the donkey -- though confused -- really doesn't seem to mind. Since there is nothing wrong with it, and there is no shame, Bob doesn't stop when two of his neighbors come strolling up.
His neighbors, Frank and Harry (Not their real names either) watch Bob fuck his donkey for a while without speaking. Then, Frank turns to Harry and says, "Looks like fun."
And it did. What can be more fun than fucking a donkey, huh? And the great thing about donkeys is that everyone had one. Soon, everyone was fucking their donkeys.

Things went along swimmingly for a couple of generations. But then, there was a population explosion. Donkeys weren't the only things getting fucked. And as the population grew, the young people started finding it harder and harder to contribute to society. A new thing was created. Unemployment.
One day, a group of industrious young people were hanging outside the pool table with nothing to do.
"Wouldn't it be nice," Scott (Not his real name) said, "If we could sit in judgement of hard working people, and instead of getting pissed off and running us out of town, they would give us food and shelter."
It would be sweet, they all agreed. Then, they set out to make it happen. But they needed an issue to be judgemental on. After much debate, they settled on donkey fucking.
Donkey fucking was bad, they said. No one should fuck their donkeys.
Donkey fucking was a sin.
At first, people ignored them, But as they got more organized and more numerous, people were forced to take them more seriously. After a hundred years or so, they were securely in place. They were priests.

And that's why you can't fuck your donkey anymore.

 

[ericred50]

Well KillerMuffin, I think you have opened a real can of worms. Religion,and its teachings have caused all the troubles since the begining of time, where is it written that you shall kill?
The writtings of all the religions,can be interpreted, to suit there own needs, or the needs of its leaders. They all send one message, "life after death".
I searched many years ago for "my god", went to church, etc etc. I did not find him or her, I do not believe, I'm an atheist, I have my own code of conduct, honesty at all times, and do not think bad of anybody, because they have a religion. They have their views I have mine, and I do not do to them what they would do to me.

x x x

 

[kathy stl]

OK, first of all, Rainlover? that was like TOO TRUE! bless you my son for you have sinned. But you can fuck my donkey any day.

But can I ask a baffling question? Juss fer fun. The reincarnation thing. Let's say I am living this life, messing up things, making all these mistakes, grabbing what I can, even making a fellow creature happy sometimes. Then whap! hit by a truck. Boingo.

Now if I am reincarnated in that instant as a bug or a cow or even a human infant, and I have no memory of this life I am living right now, no idea I ever existed before, what I learned or didn't learn, or any reason to believe that I will reincarnate again...then...how is that different from just smack! I am dead and gone forever?

I once did get smacked! real hard, but if you can explain to my brain damaged head, would kiss you.

 

[Ambrosious]

Evil done in the name of God(dess)(s)(es), is the religion responsible?

If we are talking about YOUR religion, then yes, the religion in question is responsible. If we are talking about mine however, then no. My doctrine comes strait from God, so what I do is acceptable.

At least, that's how many religions look at it, as I see it.

 

[ravenna]

But can I ask a baffling question? Juss fer fun. The reincarnation thing. Let's say I am living this life, messing up things, making all these mistakes, grabbing what I can, even making a fellow creature happy sometimes. Then whap! hit by a truck. Boingo.

Now if I am reincarnated in that instant as a bug or a cow or even a human infant, and I have no memory of this life I am living right now, no idea I ever existed before, what I learned or didn't learn, or any reason to believe that I will reincarnate again...then...how is that different from just smack! I am dead and gone forever?

Every reincarnation belief I've run into says one or more of several things:

1) Your soul is qualitatively *changed* by the life you've lived through. It's marked in some way. So, even though you don't remember what you've done or been, there are repercussions from it later.

2) There's some way to access memories from previous lives. (Plenty of hypnotists make money off this one. )

3) There's some other state of being in which we remember the experiences of *all* our lives. (Check out _Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah_ for a fairly accessible version of this.)

Lots of them also don't think reincarnation is necessarily instant - especially those with number three belief.

 

[Digger Troll]

Digger Troll Says Hello!

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Can a religion even be separated from the people who profess to follow it?

Yes - if a reasonable person who understood the religion could see that the actions of the followers are at variance with the true and actual teachings of the religion. OTOH, a religion cannot be separated from followers that practice its true teachings, but the followers still bear the ultimate responsibility for their actions.

The responsiblity for harmful actions lies primarily with the people who intentionally and knowingly warp the understanding of the religion to their own ends. Secondarily the responsibility lies with the people who allow their understanding of the religion to be warped.

I can't speak for other religions, but Christianity actually does teach that there is a special punishment awaiting those people who spread false teachings, especially if they do it knowingly.

 

[Poverkhnost]

As a professing Christian I understand from first hand experience how others view Christianity. The problem is that those who most twist and pervert any religion are those who spread the most news about it. The truth is that Christianity does offer up some difficult to deal with aspects, but more than not it is a religion of love, forgiveness and peace. Normally, when someone chooses to find things in the Bible to propogate some kind of violence or ignorance, they are taking things out of context or from the old testament, something which may not even be believed as doctrine anymore.

We have to hold people responsible for what they do, not the religion. Certainly, beliefs are the main thing that affects decisions and actions. Yet, before we point fingers at the religion itself, it's important to examine whether or not this person is really living out what his/her religion teaches. Often times it is not.

 

[patient1]

My religion tells me to forgive & not judge

I can differentiate between a person & a religion.

I can differentiate between a person & a political party/government.

It's when I have trouble differentiating between the religions and political parties/governments that I become concerned...

Look at your history/sociology in that light.