Ethics of writing erotic stories

[HeyAll]

It's something I've thought about in the past, and something I'm thinking about tonight.

On one hand, stories such as Incest, Non Consent, Loving Wives, ect... are a fantasy of many people. People love coming online and reading these stories because it pushes their 'buttons' in a way that they can't get anywhere else. It helps bring sexual joy and pleasure to their lives.

On the other hand, these topics are almost universally/publicly frowned upon in real life. (Obviously nonconsent is illegal, so is incest)


So to the authors here, do you consider yourselves "sinners" and accept that fact?

Or do you feel that you're doing something positive for society because it's all fiction and you bring happiness to people's lives? (the same way violent movies make people happy)

 

[slyc_willie]

Talk about asking for an open invitation to open up a six-pack of Whup-Ass . . .

Ethics and sin . . . just those two topics alone will make for an interesting thread. I anticipate some blood will be shed.

As writers, we could be excused for anything we pen as having influenced someone to do something they may not otherwise have considered. In one of my earliest stories, I depicted a scene in which a young woman was taught how to deep-throat. One of the comments I received on that story indicated the woman who left it was going to try that technique with her boyfriend.

Cool, huh?

At the same time, I have a few stories in which characters are killed in some very nasty and descriptive ways. Thankfully, I've yet to see a comment in which someone wrote, "hey! Great idea! I think I'll go try to kill someone that way!"

As writers, we can worry about what we write as becoming the basis for someone else's misdoings. We can choose to censor ourselves and not be quite so graphic when it comes to such things as rape, torture, and murder, to name a few subjects. Or, we can accept that humanity is depraved and nothing we write hasn't been thought of before. Perhaps that is our ultimate caveat: "I know this is a sick story, but come on, face it: you've thought of worse."

I'm reminded of Jodie Foster, who, at the age of thirteen, played a very young prostitute in the film Taxi Driver. As a young and reckless actress, she then went on to pose for a series of somewhat risque pictures for High Society, a magazine that since became known for showcasing trashy young teens in all their glory. She was criticized at the time for playing off her sexuality in order to gain exposure. And it worked.

But then came along some nobody named John Hinckley, Jr., who became enamored of the young starlet. They even exchanged letters and purportedly had phone conversations. In order to impress her, Hinckley decided to assassinate President Ronald Reagan.

Yeah, political assassinations always get the girls wet.

The result was that Foster became withdrawn. She felt responsible for the near-death of the president. After all, if not for her role as Iris, Hinckley would never have done what he did.

Right?

Or . . . maybe he would have just found a different target for his twisted affections.

Jodie Foster was -- and is -- an artist who understands that anything she does that hits the mainstream can potentially influence someone else's actions. She has been very careful of her film roles as a result.

Like her, but on a much smaller level, we writers on Lit run the risk of influencing someone, somewhere, to commit an act. Should we let that compromise us? Should we stop posting to Non-Con altogether? Should we stop writing stories about brothers and sisters, fathers and daughters, etc. having wonderful, consensual sex in which both are satisfied, when we know that the vast majority of incestuous relationships are anything but loving?

Hell if I know. And, honestly, I don't really care. I write, and that's pretty much how I define myself. I'm a creator. Sometimes I create something wonderfully positive, sometimes I don't. If someone takes something I've written and uses it for a blueprint, I can't control that. At least I've never written anything that was intended directly to be a blueprint. If I did that, I would have to hold myself responsible for anything that might transpire.

But I don't do that. I write fantasies across the board and let them lay down as random tiles upon a virgin floor. Like a carpenter who isn't held responsible because a tile just happens to look like the face of the devil, I'm not responsible for whatever anyone does after reading one of my stories.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

As a human bean I miss the smell of wood smoke and burning leaves, I miss the orange blossom fragrance, and a 1000 other pieces of my childhood world that are gone forever tho I live in the same place I did 60 years ago. The blackwater creek I bathed in is now an inorganic ditch that collects runoff from the streets. My neighbors patrol the streets armed with clipboards for noting scofflaws like me for referral to the Bear Creek Beautification Committee.

Okra is a Hibiscus, and Sweet Potato is a Morning Glory, and the ladies with the clipboards dispute the fact.

Sixty years ago I thought this place was Paradise, but we improved it to death.

We improve everything to death.

 

[SamScribble]

For you to think that writing erotic stories is somehow bad, you must first think the eroticism is bad. I don’t think that it is. I think that eroticism is one of the options on the table for every individual. Some people will choose it as a part of their lives, possibly a big part of their lives; some people will not. It’s their choice. However, with a different hat on, I believe that people who choose written eroticism have a right to expect convincing, well-crafted eroticism. And 90 percent of what is offered is far from convincing, far from well crafted. In my book, the only real ‘sinners’ are those who don’t put serious effort into the creation of the eroticism they present.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

For you to think that writing erotic stories is somehow bad, you must first think the eroticism is bad. I don’t think that it is. I think that eroticism is one of the options on the table for every individual. Some people will choose it as a part of their lives, possibly a big part of their lives; some people will not. It’s their choice. However, with a different hat on, I believe that people who choose written eroticism have a right to expect convincing, well-crafted eroticism. And 90 percent of what is offered is far from convincing, far from well crafted. In my book, the only real ‘sinners’ are those who don’t put serious effort into the creation of the eroticism they present.

I agree

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I violate no ethics with what I do. I don't advocate the reader go and practice what I write about. In fact on the title page I warn the reader what to expect and that I, the writer, do not practice nor advocate what takes place in the story.

As for what the reader might do?

There is always the twinkie defense.

For ages, well ever since books were published and television shows became common place, there have been people who would have you believe that what you read or watch will effect what you do. Bullshit. All of it. If you will do such things as murder, rape, etc., then it was already there, in your mind and twinkies, television or a book had nothing to do with your acts.

I was brought up in the first age of television - the 50's. I progressed through the second and third ages. As the population grew, the violence on the tube grew. The youth of America were brought up on explosion of ever increasing power, of blood that was grey to blood a deep red expelled from bodies as they were torn apart by bullets and mayhem.

Yet through all that - I never once had a thought about actually killing someone, did I imagine how much I would like to kill someone who had done me wrong - sure and I used it in some of my works.

Did I think about raping a woman? No - actually never, what fun would that be?

Did I ever think about an incestuous relationship with my mother - I didn't have any sisters? No.

Although there was an aunt and a cousin that I did think about in ways that I was taught to be wrong, yet I never acted on those thoughts.

So to answer your questions: No, I have absolutely no problem with what I write. As far as I'm concerned they are pieces of fiction.

However, and it's there's always an however, there are several things I will not write about. Children, Rape or hardcore BDSM. (I have written several light bondage stories)

 

[oggbashan]

English Lady, and her thread for Christian writers of erotica, has covered this subject before.

My view is that fiction is fiction. It is all fantasy.

But I know that some societies and some adherents of religion(s) do not understand or accept the concept of fiction. For them, if it is written it must be true, and if it isn't true - it is a sinful lie and should be condemned.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

English Lady, and her thread for Christian writers of erotica, has covered this subject before.

My view is that fiction is fiction. It is all fantasy.

But I know that some societies and some adherents of religion(s) do not understand or accept the concept of fiction. For them, if it is written it must be true, and if it isn't true - it is a sinful lie and should be condemned.

Stop humping religions ass. Your hero Stalin murdered 50 million people, and was atheist.

 

[SecondCircle]

The logic that people use is that graphic movies, violent video games, sexually explicit images or situations, and all that loveliness have desensitized us. People cheer for the slasher in 80's remakes to kill those teenagers or college kids in the most gruesome way imaginable. Games usually seem yo have the basic underlying theme of "kill or be killed." TV shows and movies have more and more sexually vivid scenes, even to include incest. And all the while the world grows more sinful and corrupt because of it.

Right??

Nah. I don't buy it. Because we are only becoming desensitized to VIEWING the entertainment medium itself. Not the reality of it. I grew up watching horror movies and playing violent games all my life, and I've seen my fair share of extreme porn.

Never wanted to cut someone to pieces or go on a shooting spree or rape anyone. Because I was normal. Sane. Responsible. I understood it wasn't real life, and not to be practiced.

And I seriously doubt those "slasher cheerleaders" could actually handle seeing an actual carcass of a mutilated human being. Its a sight that bends the mind and twists the stomach. One to never forget. From the comfort of our own home, we think we can handle these things till it hits you. The first time I saw what used to be a Hadji family splattered across a field, and a little girl's sandals still on her feet, it grounded me. No amount of violent movies or games could "desensitize" me enough for that.

There are "grown folks" who were raised right and can be mature and handle watching or experiencing questionably extreme or controversial entertainment. When they turn that entertainment off, or close that story, it ends there. Its entertainment. Then, there are those that were raised like heathens, and don't know when to stop or be serious, or how to grow up. Then there are just crazy people who were born fucking crazy and will snipe people from bell towers or cook body parts.

You cannot always plan for the "stupid" or the "crazy" people who fuck it up for everyone. If you handed them a life jacket they'd strangle themselves or someone else with it. In the meantime, I'll watch horror movies and not sacrifice someone yo the devil, play video games without shooting up a bank, read incest without fucking my sister, and generally just carry on living my life trying to steer away from "stoopidz and crazies."

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The logic that people use is that graphic movies, violent video games, sexually explicit images or situations, and all that loveliness have desensitized us. People cheer for the slasher in 80's remakes to kill those teenagers or college kids in the most gruesome way imaginable. Games usually seem yo have the basic underlying theme of "kill or be killed." TV shows and movies have more and more sexually vivid scenes, even to include incest. And all the while the world grows more sinful and corrupt because of it.

Right??

Nah. I don't buy it. Because we are only becoming desensitized to VIEWING the entertainment medium itself. Not the reality of it. I grew up watching horror movies and playing violent games all my life, and I've seen my fair share of extreme porn.

Never wanted to cut someone to pieces or go on a shooting spree or rape anyone. Because I was normal. Sane. Responsible. I understood it wasn't real life, and not to be practiced.

And I seriously doubt those "slasher cheerleaders" could actually handle seeing an actual carcass of a mutilated human being. Its a sight that bends the mind and twists the stomach. One to never forget. From the comfort of our own home, we think we can handle these things till it hits you. The first time I saw what used to be a Hadji family splattered across a field, and a little girl's sandals still on her feet, it grounded me. No amount of violent movies or games could "desensitize" me enough for that.

There are "grown folks" who were raised right and can be mature and handle watching or experiencing questionably extreme or controversial entertainment. When they turn that entertainment off, or close that story, it ends there. Its entertainment. Then, there are those that were raised like heathens, and don't know when to stop or be serious, or how to grow up. Then there are just crazy people who were born fucking crazy and will snipe people from bell towers or cook body parts.

You cannot always plan for the "stupid" or the "crazy" people who fuck it up for everyone. If you handed them a life jacket they'd strangle themselves or someone else with it. In the meantime, I'll watch horror movies and not sacrifice someone yo the devil, play video games without shooting up a bank, read incest without fucking my sister, and generally just carry on living my life trying to steer away from "stoopidz and crazies."

I contend that we figger out whats real and whats pretend. Ads for MacDonalds don't appease our hunger, ads for Pepsi don't slake our thirst. The itch is there already.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

So to the authors here, do you consider yourselves "sinners" and accept that fact?

Or do you feel that you're doing something positive for society because it's all fiction and you bring happiness to people's lives? (the same way violent movies make people happy)

Do I consider myself a sinner and accept that fact? Perhaps, but not as a result of my activities here. Writing nasty stories is probably the least offensive thing I have ever done.

Do I think that I'm doing something positive for society? Not really. If I stopped writing stories today and pulled all of mine from the site some people might notice, but no lives would be changed. I'm not delusional. This is free porn for the masses, not classic literature.

Do I think my stories have any harmful effects on anyone? No. I write fiction, not how-to manuals. I'm not responsible for anyone's interpretation of my fantasies. That's entirely between the reader and his psychiatrist.

 

[LizHaze]

Stop humping religions ass. Your hero Stalin murdered 50 million people, and was atheist.

And Hitler was a christian, blah blah blah. These sorts of arguments are pointless. This argument has absolutely nothing to do with anything, and I'd really appreciate it if people stop bringing it up. Stalin did what he did for reasons other than a mere lack of belief in a god. I refuse to justify monstrosities, but stop trying to claim a connection where there is none. The original point of the thread stands that people will do morally squicky things like rape and murder because it was already in their head from something else, not because somebody wrote a story about it.

I agree that what HeyAll said wasn't entirely fair. It's not that the religious in general have a problem with the concept of fiction, it's that the most corely fundamentalist ones do. The worst harm erotica could do I think is with people who can't make a distinction between fantasy and reality, but that is NOT dependent on any sort of religion.

Is this conversation against some sort of forum rules?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

And Hitler was a christian, blah blah blah. These sorts of arguments are pointless. This argument has absolutely nothing to do with anything, and I'd really appreciate it if people stop bringing it up. Stalin did what he did for reasons other than a mere lack of belief in a god. I refuse to justify monstrosities, but stop trying to claim a connection where there is none. The original point of the thread stands that people will do morally squicky things like rape and murder because it was already in their head from something else, not because somebody wrote a story about it.

I agree that what HeyAll said wasn't entirely fair. It's not that the religious in general have a problem with the concept of fiction, it's that the most corely fundamentalist ones do. The worst harm erotica could do I think is with people who can't make a distinction between fantasy and reality, but that is NOT dependent on any sort of religion.

Is this conversation against some sort of forum rules?

Hitler wasn't a Christian, and Stalin went to seminary. Hitler actually favored Islam and said he'd like it if Germans were Muslims; he used Muslims to persecute Jews.

Why don't you make yourself real popular as a nannie and report the thread? I double dog dare you.

 

[JuliaHandel]

Agree with Second Circle. People have committed what are called atrocities for millennia. Great civilizations – Roman Imperial, Aztec, and Maoist – have punished and executed their enemies in imaginative ways. Sadism and its cousin, the craving of power, are parts of human society.
We observe and describe, sometimes teach; but we don’t lead. Do we?

 

[Athalia]

Talk about asking for an open invitation to open up a six-pack of Whup-Ass . . .

But an interesting essay. Thanks for writing it.

I'm reminded of something Groucho Marx was reputed to have said, which went something like: "I've never found a girl who was ruined by a book ... and, believe me, I've looked."

We all have dark sides. We also live in fantasy worlds of the mind. There are stories that indulge those fantasies and dark sides, but it could be argued that by reading and writing these stories, we vicariously participate in those activities without the need for actually carrying them out. In areas where pornography is readily available, the rate of crimes like rape and torture is lower than that of areas where it's forbidden.

Perhaps there's one person in a hundred thousand who, like Mr. Hinckley, is spurred to crime by the depiction of crime. But it would be hard to argue that he would not have attempted murder if Taxi Driver had never been made. I find it ironic that many of those people who rail against pornography hold such reverence for the Bible, which has copious instances of murder, rape, and adultery. Surely they wouldn't argue that it's exposure to such crimes in the Bible that lead people to a life of crime.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

THE FOOD NETWORK is responsible for obesity in America!

BAN COOKBOOKS!

 

[RoyceConnors]

Most erotica writers draw from some source of reality, despite the abnormalities they describe. It's all fictional in content, but based in reality in context. Readers want to know what they're missing out on, so they read stories that we write and live vicariously through them.
Is it the writer, or the reader, who ethics apply to? Me for writing, or them for reading? They chose to read what I wrote and let it affect them the way they want it to.
Zealots aside, mainstream wants to know what goes in in the bedrooms of middle America and who is doing what to each other. Our fiction may be the cause of many a relationship to break up, or become better, it all depends on the reader. Not writing, or talking about it, won't make it go away, so what ethics are there to follow anyway, if they are based on biased leanings?

I'm still looking for any professional who is ethical in their work. The ones who judge sure as hell aren't, that's a proven fact. Ethics are like rules, they're made to be broken.

 

[jodiross]

Personally, I'm glad this subject has come up. Having just started to write erotica this was one of the questions I had to contemplate. I actually don't believe in "sin" as it is presented by the religious community so I don't think writing erotica is 'sinful'.

I think it's only 'sinful' if you think it is. So if you're writing erotica and feel that you are 'sinning' then maybe you should either take a second look at your thoughts about 'sin' or quit writing it.

Each person is responsible for the choices they make in life. I'm reminded of the story of two sons whose father was an alcoholic. One son became an alcoholic and the other son wanted nothing to do with booze. And when asked why they were the way they were both said, "With a father like mine, what else would you expect?" But in truth, each son made a decision, maybe a subconscious one, to be who they were.

When I look at my writing I ask myself: What do you want to accomplish by writing this? My answers: I want to help other women to be more open to exploring their own sexuality. I want them to derive more pleasure from their sexual experiences. And I want to create an experience for those reading my work that is pleasurable and enjoyable.

Am I going to change the world? Probably not. Will my writing make a difference? I hope so. I hope that it will give women the poke they need to dare to try something new and discover that they enjoy it. If I can do that then I feel I have contributed something positive to the world.

Jodi

 

[Ironiclaconic]

This is something I have thought about. There are definitely some erotic themes that I wouldn't advocate in real life, but they aren't all equal. Incest is hot between other people because of the taboo, but biologically we psychologically imprint on those close to us as kids, resulting in sexual aversion toward relatives. As such, I don't think there is much risk of incest stories resulting in people making a pass at their mom. I don't write them, though, as I wouldn't be able to do so without thinking of my own family members, which would be a buzzkill.

Rape/nonconsent is different. I do wonder if some guys read these, and it feeds into "all the girls want it" mentalities, encouraging rape. Maybe not violent stranger rape, but alcohol or drug-induced date rape. That obviously isn't a given, and I can't be too judgmental as I find some of these stories very hot myself and I haven't raped anyone, but it's enough of a concern that I won't write these kind of stories. I will reiterate that I don't criticize or judge those who do, so long as it doesn't clearly cross the line into being a rape-justification or abuse story.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

This is something I have thought about. There are definitely some erotic themes that I wouldn't advocate in real life, but they aren't all equal. Incest is hot between other people because of the taboo, but biologically we psychologically imprint on those close to us as kids, resulting in sexual aversion toward relatives. As such, I don't think there is much risk of incest stories resulting in people making a pass at their mom. I don't write them, though, as I wouldn't be able to do so without thinking of my own family members, which would be a buzzkill.

Rape/nonconsent is different. I do wonder if some guys read these, and it feeds into "all the girls want it" mentalities, encouraging rape. Maybe not violent stranger rape, but alcohol or drug-induced date rape. That obviously isn't a given, and I can't be too judgmental as I find some of these stories very hot myself and I haven't raped anyone, but it's enough of a concern that I won't write these kind of stories. I will reiterate that I don't criticize or judge those who do, so long as it doesn't clearly cross the line into being a rape-justification or abuse story.

All girls do want it. Drugs and alcohol simply clear the way to the pussy. Or duct tape if youre poor.

 

[RoyceConnors]

All girls do want it. Drugs and alcohol simply clear the way to the pussy. Or duct tape if youre poor.

You know, that hole in your head is for talking, not spouting shit. That's what your asshole is for. If it comes out of your mouth as well, you're either full of shit, or one huge asshole. Which are you?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

You know, that hole in your head is for talking, not spouting shit. That's what your asshole is for. If it comes out of your mouth as well, you're either full of shit, or one huge asshole. Which are you?

Both. I prolly wasted all those years and money going to college. Shows you how much perfessers help. I coulda got an education here for free.

 

[RoyceConnors]

Both. I prolly wasted all those years and money going to college. Shows you how much perfessers help. I coulda got an education here for free.

No argument here. Should have taken something better than Advanced Basket Weaving.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

No argument here. Should have taken something better than Advanced Basket Weaving.

I took Gay Nail Technology.

 

[3113]

Bullshit? Really?

For ages, well ever since books were published and television shows became common place, there have been people who would have you believe that what you read or watch will effect what you do. Bullshit.

Nah. I don't buy it.

Before we cry "bullshit" on this, leave us remember a few things. First, if someone wrote to us and said, "you changed my life! After reading your story I tried doing X-Y-X in bed and my sex life s now wonderful!" We'd take take credit for that, wouldn't we? So why do we get to cry "Bullshit!" and "Don't buy it!" when say, a movie shows boys lying in the street and a bunch of stupid teens try and get run over? Why do we get to be all proud of our fiction when it influences for good, then deny any influence when it makes someone do bad?

And, no, I'm not absolving people from taking responsibility for their lives. But we're not totally innocents either. That I don't buy. However, for the most part people are attracted to what upholds their beliefs, what they want to be true. But fiction can reinforce these beliefs and make things worse.

For example, prior to the 70's, most fiction upheld the stereotype that gays were dangerous and sick. And in biographies of people growing up gay, they often say that they were scared of what they might become thanks to such fictions. And then they found that one book about a gay person finding some kind of love, and it was a revelation. It was a relief. It was salvation.

Bullshit? I don't think so. What is bullshit is that we writers can't *know* that if we write x-y-z it will influence all sorts of people to do x-y-z. Goethe had no idea that his "Sorrows of Young Werther" would start a fad of young men committing suicide. And J.K. Rowling had no idea that Harry Potter would be a global phenomenon and get some kids studying magic. If we don't know how popular or influential our story or a part of our story is going to be, then we can't be held accountable for doing something "unethical." One has to have an intention--like glorifying non-con and getting people to commit rape--in order for the "unethical" argument to hold water. If one just wants to help people have an orgasm at home in front of their computers...that's not really unethical.

But saying fiction can't have an a effect, a profound effect that changes the world and can't influence the way people live their lives? I find it ironic that English Lady said as much in the Christian thread...because religious books have had one of the biggest effect of all on people. And while a Christian may argue that this is different, because the Bible is fact not fiction...well, if they believe that then they have to believe other religious books are fiction, and look at the effect they had. So there's Scientology, and the Mahabharata, and the Koran...all these fiction books, having a profound influence on how people act. I'd say that undermines any claim we creators have on "not buying" such "bullshit."