Erotica, Grammar & Hemmingway

[J.Q. Hack]

In several story comments and bulletin board posts people have written that they aren't coming to Literotica to read Faulkner, Hemmingway or great literature. These comments are usually posted in defense of stories with multiple and frequent examples of grammar, spelling and other writing mistakes. At a certain level comments like this bother me because the implication is that since these stories are erotic and/or pornographic we do not have to hold them up to any set of writing standards.

Each year hundreds of novels and short stories are published that will never be compared to Hemmingway. However, more often than not, these stories have something in common: proper grammar and spelling.

Since most of the stories published on Literotica will never be published elsewhere should we hold ourselves to a lower standard? Or is erotica itself so marginalized that nobody cares if it's to, too or two? Or does it matter if verb tenses and point of view leap around in a story so as to make it unreadable as long as the girl getting fucked is described in a way to make it easier to get off?

I personally feel that erotica is a legitimate literary form and that even if we only write and publish on this site we should expect more from our stories and others' writing. I know my writing has many faults but I try to pay some attention to details such as grammar and spelling. I realize each story and writer is not at the same level in abilities to develop characters, plot or narrative voice, but basic rules of spelling and grammar make each story so much easier to read and comprehend. Then and only then can a story be fairly evaluated for its plot and characters instead of slogging through mangled words.

How do others feel? Should grammar and conventional English be chucked aside because it's erotica? Does content matter more than form or are both equally important?

J.Q. Hack

 

[cloudy]

I agree that grammar, punctuation, and spelling should be a priority for those who write here. This will probably sound awful, but a story with just a couple of typos, etc., doesn't bother me - that happens to everyone at one time or another - but if its so sloppy that I'm paying more attention to the mistakes than the story, well.....back click is my usual action.

I think anyone that writes anything should have enough pride in themselves and their work to at least get the things they can get right, right.

Many of us are trying out our wings here, to see if our dream of writing is one we should follow or not. Others write purely for enjoyment, and I'm sure some are a little of both, but just because it's erotica doesn't mean it shouldn't be held up to some standards.

 

[GingerV]

Anything worth doing is worth doing to the best of one's ability. I don't serve burned food, and I don't post un-proof read stories.

But then again, I know how to fix the problems (some of them, anyway...still learning). Writing is the sort of thing you have to do wrong a lot before you learn how to do it right. I don't think people who write imperfect stories should be discouraged from trying.

But at the same time, while I'll read a story that needs technical work...it will be as a favor, because they asked for help. I won't do it for fun, I don't enjoy them nearly as much. If there are those who insist that they could do better, but won't bother. Or, worse yet, that they can't do better and don't think they should bother to learn...I don't think there will ever be a meeting of minds. They'll think I'm wasting my time on rewrites, I'll think they're wasting their time on unfinished work. And thankfully, neither of us is forced to read the other at all.

It's a long way around to "to each his own," but I think that's the best answer you're going to get in a place that caters to all tastes.

G

 

[nushu2]

It's funny, I can still remember some horribly written stories because they had a simple idea that has transferred into my library of fantasies. That's all it takes for the more primitive sections of our brains and there are plenty of readers that wish to satiate that part. That is not to say they are not intelligent, complex people, just fulfilling a desire. In fact, they might view our attempts as feeble and trite, then open their Hemmingway to get real writing. (the misguided fools)

I have to apologize to those people who are just looking for lust candy because I can't write that way. I feel no motivation to write a story that doesn't appeal to the intellectual side of the brain. I'm no Hemmingway either, thank God, but like to write for people that can appreciate the work involved, mostly other writers.

I forget who said, "Once a fantasy becomes close to being reality, it can no longer be a fantasy." In other words, our attempts at realism may be working against us. However, I feel no obligation to fulfill someone's fantasy, only their expectations. I might even surpass their expectations, on a good day.

 

[Aaron Dazer]

There are multiple types of writing in all of Lit. and from what i've read. Dictation is more common then correct grammar. Something that is understood but doesn't follow grammar rules. I'd also like to note that for someone with out higher English Education reading:
Me and Sally,
Sally and I,
I and Sally, or
Us
Doesn’t make a shit load of fucking difference. When I write I like to get my idea across and if I read it later and what I waned to express is explicitly understood. In my mind I did great. However in the spirit of making others enjoying as well I’ll put forth and effort to make it grammatically correct.

 

[HawaiiBill]

In several story comments and bulletin board posts people have written that they aren't coming to Literotica to read Faulkner, Hemmingway or great literature. J.Q. Hack

It's Hemingway, by the way.

A word is a symbol for an idea. Symbols are extremely powerful. To use
them carelessly -- especially on the internet! -- is a mistake. Slop clogs up
bandwidth needed for more important or more elegant messages. Symbols
deserve proper foundation and framework. For those of us who love erotica
the tender caress of a word can be as powerful as the gentle touch of
a hand. Or, as much an assault as rape.

Hemingway and other great writers demonstrate that careful use of language
is extremely important if you want to be appreciated and remembered. If that
means nothing to an author it will be evident in the writing and people will
soon ignore everything done by that person. Such writers wither on the
vine and are rarely seen after a very short while.

As you express in your very welcome note you find every example of writing
in Literotica. It's good to note how few were chosen for inclusion in the
Literotica book! The rest of a quarter of a million or so stories -- was
not good enough

It should be clear that "good enough" includes grammar, spelling, thought
and respect. And, because it was published by the owners of Literotica, it
should be considered a Style Book and its contents studied for what
is most welcome here.

Is that something civilized people fail to know? I don't think so.

It is impolite to write carelessly. If you want to be read -- and why else write?
-- you owe it to those who oblige to speak their language. While it may
be stretching a point to equate it to dressing up for a nice party or to use
language as carefully as you might with your favorite Aunt Tilly, the spirit
is the same.Approach your reader as though you are asking for a job.

When you release careless words and have the audacity to think that's
just fine, it is an insult to most readers. Not all, of course, because some
folks speak that way on their own, but most readers don't want to struggle
through convoluted sentences, habitual misspelling or careless words!

Careful use of language is also owed any ideas that deserve to be shared. It
is clear that the person right up there /\ -- has contempt rather than healthy
respect for readers. No problem. Nothing is lost.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Erotica, Grammar & Hemmingway

. . . It is impolite to write carelessly. If you want to be read -- and why else write?
-- you owe it to those who oblige to speak their language. While it may
be stretching a point to equate it to dressing up for a nice party or to use
language as carefully as you might with your favorite Aunt Tilly, the spirit
is the same.Approach your reader as though you are asking for a job.

When you release careless words and have the audacity to think that's
just fine, it is an insult to most readers. Not all, of course, because some
folks speak that way on their own, but most readers don't want to struggle
through convoluted sentences, habitual misspelling or careless words!. . .

Yes. It is very impolite to write carelessly.

I am offended when I attempt to read something on Lit that a writer hasn't spent even two minutes editing.

Yes, I want to hear about the terrific sex. I'd like to know how John got Jane or how Jane got Susie or how Bill and Fred and a couple of friends got Jennifer - but hey! I'd like to be able to sift through the typos.

It isn't a damn diary - it's a story site. Choose your words carefully and then make them presentable!

 

[Aaron Dazer]

Re: Re: Erotica, Grammar & Hemmingway

It's Hemingway, by the way.

A word is a symbol for an idea. Symbols are extremely powerful. To use
them carelessly -- especially on the internet! -- is a mistake. Slop clogs up
bandwidth needed for more important or more elegant messages. Symbols
deserve proper foundation and framework. For those of us who love erotica
the tender caress of a word can be as powerful as the gentle touch of
a hand. Or, as much an assault as rape.

Hemingway and other great writers demonstrate that careful use of language
is extremely important if you want to be appreciated and remembered. If that
means nothing to an author it will be evident in the writing and people will
soon ignore everything done by that person. Such writers wither on the
vine and are rarely seen after a very short while.

As you express in your very welcome note you find every example of writing
in Literotica. It's good to note how few were chosen for inclusion in the
Literotica book! The rest of a quarter of a million or so stories -- was
not good enough

It should be clear that "good enough" includes grammar, spelling, thought
and respect. And, because it was published by the owners of Literotica, it
should be considered a Style Book and its contents studied for what
is most welcome here.

Is that something civilized people fail to know? I don't think so.

It is impolite to write carelessly. If you want to be read -- and why else write?
-- you owe it to those who oblige to speak their language. While it may
be stretching a point to equate it to dressing up for a nice party or to use
language as carefully as you might with your favorite Aunt Tilly, the spirit
is the same.Approach your reader as though you are asking for a job.

When you release careless words and have the audacity to think that's
just fine, it is an insult to most readers. Not all, of course, because some
folks speak that way on their own, but most readers don't want to struggle
through convoluted sentences, habitual misspelling or careless words!

Careful use of language is also owed any ideas that deserve to be shared. It
is clear that the person right up there /\ -- has contempt rather than healthy
respect for readers. No problem. Nothing is lost.

ROTFLMAO HawaiiBill you bust me up. I want to note I've a new respect for you. That was pure poetry. You should increase that to about 500 words and publish it.

Next note. I was being waggery above. My point however was many people have degrees of understanding of the English language. The ones who understand totally correct grammar are about 10% of them. The rest wouldn’t know the correct way to write or read my example above. One doesn’t need to have commercially publishable ability to write an enjoyable story. Which Lit is full of. There is a good point though it is rude and inconsiderate to write well below your ability.

 

[snooper]

Re: Re: Re: Erotica, Grammar & Hemmingway

... I am offended when I attempt to read something on Lit that a writer hasn't spent even two minutes editing. ...

I agree, with the proviso that I make allowances for those for whom English is clearly not their first language.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Erotica, Grammar & Hemmingway

I agree, with the proviso that I make allowances for those for whom English is clearly not their first language.

Of course. (As a matter of fact I used to proof a friend's papers in grad school. Professors were not at all understanding about language difficulties.)

But I'm referring to those stories which were written in half an hour and then immediately submitted. I'm not a grammar fiend, prowling throughout the lists, hoping to nab a careless fool.

Then again, maybe I am!

Muah ha ha haaaaaaaa!

I need sleep.

 

[Sappholovers]

Sin & Syntax

For those who want a wonderful guide to style, grammar, and prose style, I highly recommend Constance Hale's "Sin and Syntax: How to Craft Wickedly Effrective Prose."

She shows us the way writing should be taught in high school and college. I feel sorry for all the students who have had to put up with badly written textbooks on style and writing for Freshman Composition classes. This book is an antidote.

I am not related to the author. I just highly recommend this book to writers and readers who love sensuous, beautiful prose.

 

[Aaron Dazer]

Re: Re: Erotica, Grammar & Hemmingway

It's Hemingway,
When you release careless words and have the audacity to think that's
just fine, it is an insult to most readers. Not all, of course, because some
folks speak that way on their own, but most readers don't want to struggle
through convoluted sentences, habitual misspelling or careless words!

Careful use of language is also owed any ideas that deserve to be shared. It
is clear that the person right up there /\ -- has contempt rather than healthy
respect for readers. No problem. Nothing is lost.

I'd like to Prove or disprove your point with a Pole. I feel your Some and Many may be incorrectly stated. Not to start but in the Interest of the truth.

With your permission (or your starting, to avoid misquoteing.) the following.

In a Erotic story how important is grammar to you?

1. "If they spell Pussy and Dick right I don’t care give me Porn.”

2. “I see threw lack of English Skills and seek the Imagination of the Writer. though really bad will discurage me.”

3. “If I can understand it it’s fine. But complete lack of grammar discourages me.”

4. “If it’s not up to my level I pass it up.”

5. “Give me publishable/professional quality or Give me death.”

When agreed I’d like to start on the General Thread.

 

[HawaiiBill]

Advice for those who need it.

Try not to act like an asshole.