erotic choking

[Homburg]

Or you're exaggerating the risk, one or the other. Yes, people can die. But it isn't very likely and, like I say, I'm not at all persuaded that it is such a big deal - they're going to die anyway, and if they don't die during sex they're almost certain to die less pleasantly. Furthermore death by asphyxiation is not normally sudden. If you're not paying enough attention to notice that your partner is in a bad way you probably ought not to play any of these games.

You are ignorant. It's okay. That's fixable.

Do you know what happens when you compress the vagus nerve? Do you know how much pressure, and how long, a nerve sheath can take prior to damage? Do you know how long it takes someone to go unconscious when blood flow is cut off from the brain? Do you know how to cut off blood flow without cutting off airflow? Are you conversant in the anatomy of the throat so as to avoid damage to various blood vessels, nerves, and muscles? Have you ever watched someone convulse after going unconscious? Are you a medical doctor?

No, death by asphyxiation is not normally sudden. Death by cardiac arrest caused by compression of the vagus nerve, or cardiac arrest caused by nervous system feedback due to seizures brought on by asphyxiation = sudden. Brain damage is also a solid possibility, as blood vessels can burst due to excess pressure.

In short, all sorts of shit can go wrong that I am certainly not qualified to deal with, and you apparently don't care to worry about.

Well, if the worst you're worried about is what might happen to you as the survivor afterwards then I suggest you are the one who isn't taking it seriously enough.

I was referencing the absurdly flip tone in your post. As in feel free to tell the police officer, "In our culture we have a ridiculous taboo about death. Death is something that happens to us all; we're all going to die. It really isn't a big deal." I'm sure it will go over beautifully.


ETA: I despise these threads. I despise them because they keep showing up again and again due to people being too lazy to see if, wow, some other person has ever choked their partner and posted about it. I also despise them because of the inevitable input from ignorant types that are certain that passing out is just too damned much fun to be dangerous, and don't want to hear differently. If I'm lucky, the clueless person is not an arrogant dillweed about it.

Here's Jay Wiseman's eminently well-researched article on the subject (glad to see someone put it online again)

http://www.epedominion.com/HealthSafty/breath.htm

I have discussed my concerns regarding breath control with well over a dozen SM-positive physicians, and with numerous other SM-positive health professionals, and all share my concerns. We have discussed how breath control might be done in a way that is not life-threatening, and come up blank. We have discussed how the risk might be significantly reduced, and come up blank. We have discussed how it might be determined that an arrest is imminent, and come up blank.

Indeed, so far not one (repeat, not one) single physician, nurse, paramedic, chiropractor, physiologist, or other person with substantial training in how a human body works has been willing to step forth and teach a form of breath control play that they are willing to assert is acceptably safe -- i.e., does not put the recipient at imminent, unpredictable risk of dying. I believe this fact makes a major statement.

Other "edge play" topics such as suspension bondage, electricity play, cutting, piercing, branding, enemas, water sports, and scat play can and have been taught with reasonable safety, but not breath control play. Indeed, it seems that the more somebody knows about how a human body
works, the more likely they are to caution people about how dangerous breath control is, and about how little can be done to reduce the degree of risk.

 

[graceanne]

PYL = physican means no choking for me. He isn't going there, no way, no how. Not that I am complaining much. We do breathplay in the form of his covering my mouth and nose with his hands, something we both find very arousing. He has also been known to pinch my nose while my mouth and throat were filled, this too is mucho fun. In both examples my breathing is fully restricted but there is no risk of damage to the neck/throat.

Dude, you're preaching to the choir. I'm a huge fan of breath play. I just know what there is to know about it, and bringing it up is opening a HUGE can of worms in this forum.

All the years I've been here it's always been a huge button.

Which is slightly annoying. I've seen photo's of cat's behind bloody and raw from a steel brush, and whenever photo's of cutting pop up people just say 'hot' and don't lecture on keeping the cut clean and watching for infection.

But bring up breath play and BAM you're gonna get it.

 

[Homburg]

Which is slightly annoying. I've seen photo's of cat's behind bloody and raw from a steel brush, and whenever photo's of cutting pop up people just say 'hot' and don't lecture on keeping the cut clean and watching for infection.

But bring up breath play and BAM you're gonna get it.

You can mitigate the risk of those activities. You can do them in a way that minimises chance of unintended permanent injury or death. Can't do that with breathplay. It can be assumed that the top knows to keep the wound clean when you see a cutting. You cannot assume that with asphyxiation.

Human beings have systems in place to handle being cut and abraded. We lack compensatory systems for dealing with lack of air.

What is the number one cause of death during BDSM play? Leaving the bottom unattended. What is the most common proximate cause of death in unattended bottoms? Asphyxiation.

 

[callinectes]

Dude, you're preaching to the choir. I'm a huge fan of breath play. I just know what there is to know about it, and bringing it up is opening a HUGE can of worms in this forum.

All the years I've been here it's always been a huge button.

Which is slightly annoying. I've seen photo's of cat's behind bloody and raw from a steel brush, and whenever photo's of cutting pop up people just say 'hot' and don't lecture on keeping the cut clean and watching for infection.

But bring up breath play and BAM you're gonna get it.

I did not mean to quote your pic, guess I hit the wrong button, sorry! I was responding the the thread in general, not you. Off to edit.

 

[00Syd]

You can mitigate the risk of those activities. You can do them in a way that minimises chance of unintended permanent injury or death. Can't do that with breathplay. It can be assumed that the top knows to keep the wound clean when you see a cutting. You cannot assume that with asphyxiation.

Why is that? Why can we assume that a top knows how to keep a wound clean but not that a top knows the risks of asphyxiation?

Human beings have systems in place to handle being cut and abraded. We lack compensatory systems for dealing with lack of air.

What is the number one cause of death during BDSM play? Leaving the bottom unattended. What is the most common proximate cause of death in unattended bottoms? Asphyxiation.

Yes, this is true. But I'm with Gracie here. People post about all sorts of incredibly dangerous play (I once saw a photo of someone doing a knife play/CBT scene where the top was pretending to cut this dudes cock off and all I could think was "What if you trip and ACTUALLY cut it off! BE CAREFUL, YOU FOOL!"), but breath play is the only sort of edge play that gets people this riled up about safety.

And don't get me wrong, safety is a very worthy thing to get riled up about, I'm just curious why this particular type of play elicits this response when other very dangerous types of play get little more than a "that's super hot."

And yes, I've been known to greatly enjoy a hand wrapped firmly around my throat while being fucked, and yes, I realize that one day that hand could be just a little too firm and I could die. Honestly though, I'm pretty fucking likely to get hit by a car and die, too. I'd rather die mid-fuck.

Yeah, I know that sounds like I'm not taking the safety seriously, but I am. I am pretty darn careful and aware when being choked. Similarly, I am very careful when I cross the street. I look both ways, I check to make sure no cars are coming, I only walk when I'm certain its safe. Despite that, I'm still pretty likely to get hit by a car one day. Same with breath play.

I'm aware of the risk. Still gonna do it.

 

[BiBunny]

*Sigh* Yes, it's dangerous. Yes, there are ways to reduce the risk. Yes, it's still dangerous. It's the same argument every freakin' time this subject comes up.

I like breathplay. I have done things that are breathplay related that would get me crucified if I mentioned them here. (Not to mention the things that AREN'T breathplay related that would get me crucified if I mentioned them here, LOL.)

I like having hands or other objects wrapped around my throat to restrict my breathing. Not so fond of things like bagging or whatever. I don't want my air cut completely off. I panic if I can't breathe at all. I like my air intake restricted to the point that it's extremely hard to breathe, but I can still force some oxygen into my lungs. That wards off a full-blown panic.

I do have a serious question, though. This is not me being a smartass. I have never heard of anyone dying or being severely brain-damaged while engaging in breathplay with a partner. All the reports I've ever heard of death by breathplay have been instances of autoerotic asphyxiation, presumably because the victim could not get loose from the death trap he/she put him/herself into.

With the way the media covers such instances ("ZOMG, look what these freaks did!!!!!!"), one would assume that a death-by-breathplay-with-a-partner story would be covered far and wide. Especially considering the sensationalism of such a story. ("Woman Strangled to Death by Lover.") Are there really tons of unreported cases of death-by-breathplay-with-a-partner? Or is the "don't ever do it!!!!!" contingent just erring on the side of caution? Just curious.

 

[Homburg]

Why is that? Why can we assume that a top knows how to keep a wound clean but not that a top knows the risks of asphyxiation?

Because it is possible to mitigate risk in cutting. Thus it is more likely for someoen to assume that the top knows what he or she is doing than breathplay. You know, where it is impossible to "know what he or she is doing".

You can learn to use single-tails. You can learn to use blades. You can learn to do suspension. There are acceptable safe practices. Erotic Asphyxiation has no acceptable safe practices.

Yes, this is true. But I'm with Gracie here. People post about all sorts of incredibly dangerous play (I once saw a photo of someone doing a knife play/CBT scene where the top was pretending to cut this dudes cock off and all I could think was "What if you trip and ACTUALLY cut it off! BE CAREFUL, YOU FOOL!"), but breath play is the only sort of edge play that gets people this riled up about safety.

Because there is no safe way of doing it. Nor even a semi-safe way of doing it.

And don't get me wrong, safety is a very worthy thing to get riled up about, I'm just curious why this particular type of play elicits this response when other very dangerous types of play get little more than a "that's super hot."

I don't usually get riled up over it. I usually just mention the risks and call it done.

And yes, I've been known to greatly enjoy a hand wrapped firmly around my throat while being fucked, and yes, I realize that one day that hand could be just a little too firm and I could die. Honestly though, I'm pretty fucking likely to get hit by a car and die, too. I'd rather die mid-fuck.

Yeah, I know that sounds like I'm not taking the safety seriously, but I am. I am pretty darn careful and aware when being choked. Similarly, I am very careful when I cross the street. I look both ways, I check to make sure no cars are coming, I only walk when I'm certain its safe. Despite that, I'm still pretty likely to get hit by a car one day. Same with breath play.

I'm aware of the risk. Still gonna do it.

*shrug* Fill your boots. It's your life. You don't see me griping at Graceanne, do you? Nope, I'm directing the majority of my statements at those who are ignorant of the risks, and, in the case of the post you quoted, those who are too arrogant to believe that the risk could be that serious.

And, statistically speaking, you are VASTLY more likely to die per each session of erotic asphyxiation than you are by getting hit by a car whenever you cross the street. They aren't comparable risks.

 

[Homburg]

I do have a serious question, though. This is not me being a smartass. I have never heard of anyone dying or being severely brain-damaged while engaging in breathplay with a partner. All the reports I've ever heard of death by breathplay have been instances of autoerotic asphyxiation, presumably because the victim could not get loose from the death trap he/she put him/herself into.

With the way the media covers such instances ("ZOMG, look what these freaks did!!!!!!"), one would assume that a death-by-breathplay-with-a-partner story would be covered far and wide. Especially considering the sensationalism of such a story. ("Woman Strangled to Death by Lover.") Are there really tons of unreported cases of death-by-breathplay-with-a-partner? Or is the "don't ever do it!!!!!" contingent just erring on the side of caution? Just curious.

There was a case as recently as last year where a woman was charged with the death of her partner. She tied him up, gagged him, and left him to stew, and he choked to death on the gag. Can't remember her name, but it was on Yahoo's front page. There was also a more recent case involving a pro-domme doing the same thing and stuffing the chap in a closet.

You aren't all that likely to see it in the paper. It's less sensational than the preacher dressed up as Britney Spears with a gas mask and the hose of said mask jammed in his ass. You hear more about the autoerotic asphyxiation deaths because the person died alone and there was no one around to clean up with scene. After all, if the preacher's wife found him like that, she's probably pull the mask off and hide it before the coroner got there, trying to save the family the embarrassment. When Madge and Biff decide some happy choking is in order, and Biff dies, Madge does what she can to prevent it from looking like she killed good old Biff.

ETA: Also, remember that, as Jay's article points out, one of the big killers in Erotic Asphyxiation is cardiac arrest. If Biff is 57 and a two pack a day smoker, and Madge accidentally gives him a heart attack with some chokey-chokey, paramedics aren't necessarily going to look to closely. If Madge didn't leave marks, and she says he was clutching his chest etc, later admitting it happened during vigorous sex, why would they wonder if she choked him? No defensive wounds, etc.

The mechanics behind death by breathplay are solid, and backed up by research. But, for me, I don't need that. I've taken martial arts, and been choked out, and choked out a lot of people. I got goo at it. Most of the time, it was no big deal. You felt weird afterwards, but that was it. But that one time in whatever where you are holding your buddy down while he froths at the mouth and convulses, and you try to force something in his mouth keep him from biting off his tongue or swallowing it? Well, you tend to remember that.

And, in my case, I can reach up and feel the massive lump on a tendon on my jaw that is the result of a chokehold done poorly. Short of surgery, I'll carry that forever.

Still, as I said, fill your boots. So long as you are fully aware of the risks, go ahead and kill yourselves. RACK is the word of the day. I don't judge anyone for taking part in dangerous shit. I just dislike plain old ignorance, and can't fucking stand the willful version of same.

 

[BiBunny]

There was a case as recently as last year where a woman was charged with the death of her partner. She tied him up, gagged him, and left him to stew, and he choked to death on the gag. Can't remember her name, but it was on Yahoo's front page. There was also a more recent case involving a pro-domme doing the same thing and stuffing the chap in a closet.

You aren't all that likely to see it in the paper. It's less sensational than the preacher dressed up as Britney Spears with a gas mask and the hose of said mask jammed in his ass. You hear more about the autoerotic asphyxiation deaths because the person died alone and there was no one around to clean up with scene. After all, if the preacher's wife found him like that, she's probably pull the mask off and hide it before the coroner got there, trying to save the family the embarrassment. When Madge and Biff decide some happy choking is in order, and Biff dies, Madge does what she can to prevent it from looking like she killed good old Biff.

ETA: Also, remember that, as Jay's article points out, one of the big killers in Erotic Asphyxiation is cardiac arrest. If Biff is 57 and a two pack a day smoker, and Madge accidentally gives him a heart attack with some chokey-chokey, paramedics aren't necessarily going to look to closely. If Madge didn't leave marks, and she says he was clutching his chest etc, later admitting it happened during vigorous sex, why would they wonder if she choked him? No defensive wounds, etc.

The mechanics behind death by breathplay are solid, and backed up by research. But, for me, I don't need that. I've taken martial arts, and been choked out, and choked out a lot of people. I got goo at it. Most of the time, it was no big deal. You felt weird afterwards, but that was it. But that one time in whatever where you are holding your buddy down while he froths at the mouth and convulses, and you try to force something in his mouth keep him from biting off his tongue or swallowing it? Well, you tend to remember that.

And, in my case, I can reach up and feel the massive lump on a tendon on my jaw that is the result of a chokehold done poorly. Short of surgery, I'll carry that forever.

Still, as I said, fill your boots. So long as you are fully aware of the risks, go ahead and kill yourselves. RACK is the word of the day. I don't judge anyone for taking part in dangerous shit. I just dislike plain old ignorance, and can't fucking stand the willful version of same.

Thanks for your answer. Looking at it that way, it makes sense that death-by-breathplay-with-partner would not be reported like the autoerotic asphyxia deaths, or even known about at all.

The domme with the ballgag thing is just pure stupid, though.

 

[Etoile]

MisterSir and SimonBrooke - I was trying to make a point, not be scientific, philosophical, mathematical, or romantic.

Sorry if that got on anybody's nerves.

 

[Homburg]

Thanks for your answer. Looking at it that way, it makes sense that death-by-breathplay-with-partner would not be reported like the autoerotic asphyxia deaths, or even known about at all.

The domme with the ballgag thing is just pure stupid, though.

I completely agree.

Look, I will put my hand on her throat and give a little squeeze too, and often times will cover mouth and nose with one of my over-sized mitts. But it is never to the point where she is red in the face, seeing stars, or in even remote danger of anoxia. It is easy to provide the physical and mental sensations without causing trauma, and that sort of mindfuck carries mitigatible risk. Netz's classic example of the plastic bag with the big hole in the back is another.

This is just one of those situations where ignorance can lead to death.

 

[Kajira Callista]

the sky is falling...the sky is falling!

 

[graceanne]

And still, it's up to the person to make that decision. You can get irate, call people idiots, and not approve, but it's still their decision to make. The whole 'whatever floats your boat' thing.

If both people are willing to take that risk, there's nothing anyone can do and calling them idiots isn't going to make a difference.

It's the same argument every freakin' time this subject comes up.

A-MEN.

I don't even know why I open these threads anymore.

I completely agree.

Look, I will put my hand on her throat and give a little squeeze too, and often times will cover mouth and nose with one of my over-sized mitts. But it is never to the point where she is red in the face, seeing stars, or in even remote danger of anoxia. It is easy to provide the physical and mental sensations without causing trauma, and that sort of mindfuck carries mitigatible risk. Netz's classic example of the plastic bag with the big hole in the back is another.

This is just one of those situations where ignorance can lead to death.

So . . . your mitigating the risk? You're minimizing the chances of unintended permanent injury or death? Breath play is playing with the BREATH. It's not always asphyxia, it's not necessarily 'choke her till she passes out'. You are assuming that everyone who does breath play is doing that, just like one could assume that everyone who plays with sharp objects doesn't make sure everything is clean. Ignorance of proper knife play could also lead to death. Blood poisoning is not fun, I know.

Um, that's what most of us have been suggesting. I've never been red in the face, seen stars or even been in remote danger of passing out. I just like it when it's difficult to breathe. I think that's hot. I can't speak for the rest of the breath play people on this forum, but most of the ones I talk to like to have it so that it's difficult to breathe - it's freaken HOT.

And, honestly, some people can't do knife play, PERIOD. Those of us with fucked immune systems have to be careful cause we don't heal 'right'. My stitches took a month to heal, and I was three weeks healing from my oral surgery. I want piercings and tattoo's but my doctor continues to veto it because I can't heal - I haven't even bothered to ask about playing with sharp things. I can read between the lines.

the sky is falling...the sky is falling!

Goosey loosey? How I've missed you! *hugs*

 

[Homburg]

So . . . your mitigating the risk? You're minimizing the chances of unintended permanent injury or death? Breath play is playing with the BREATH.

No, I'm not playing with breath. I'm playing with mindfuck. Airflow is not cut-off, nor is blood flow.

It's not always asphyxia, it's not necessarily 'choke her till she passes out'. You are assuming that everyone who does breath play is doing that, just like one could assume that everyone who plays with sharp objects doesn't make sure everything is clean. Ignorance of proper knife play could also lead to death. Blood poisoning is not fun, I know.

Actually, I made a pretty sharp distinction. If you noticed, I used "asphyxiation", "erotic asphyxiation", and references to strangulation. Telling someone to hold their breath is technically breath play, but it is not the same thing. The risks mentioned were damage to the throat and neck, nerves, cardiac arrest etc. Pretty clearly referring to the sort of asphyxiation and neck trauma associated with people who are using anoxia to get off.

As to blood poisoning, honestly, I give people the benefit of the doubt. That is because everything BUT asphyxiation has that doubt associated with it. I'm not the BDSM police, and don't pretend to be. But this is one subject where ignorance is pervasive, and it happens to be bloody dangerous.

And blood poisoning is not likely to kill you before the paramedics get there. Cardiac arrest, not so much.

And, honestly, some people can't do knife play, PERIOD. Those of us with fucked immune systems have to be careful cause we don't heal 'right'. My stitches took a month to heal, and I was three weeks healing from my oral surgery. I want piercings and tattoo's but my doctor continues to veto it because I can't heal - I haven't even bothered to ask about playing with sharp things. I can read between the lines.

You have a specific physical condition that contraindicates certain types of play. You have to make your own choices regarding that certain type of play. Everyone has physical issues with asphyxiation. It doesn't make sense to warn people "Hey, you might have a problem with healing if you have X medical condition, so see your doctor first." It does make sense to note that anyone can go into cardiac arrest from vagus nerve compression.

You wonder why you open these threads. Honestly, I do too. I wonder why you do, and wonder why I do. I guess in my case, I feel like giving a warning might cause the random person just getting into it to think twice, do some research, and get informed about the risks.



Personally, I find it interesting that people get defensive about something that is almost universally regarded as bloody dangerous and potentially deadly. You've taken the time to understand the risks, right? Then why get defensive? Am I saying you, or anyone else, is stupid for taking part in it? No, I'm not. I have made disparaging comments regarding ignorance. That's it. If you are informed, then you are not ignorant.


ETA (because I am in a Netzach mood): Breathplay is not the only edgeplay topic that gets people wound up. Scat fires everybody up too, as does bestiality. You just see them less often because they are kinks less often stumbled on to by Madge and Biff.

 

[BiBunny]

Ok, I'm stupid. What's the difference? As I mentioned in my earlier post, I like to have pressure applied to my neck/throat that makes it difficult for me to breathe, but doesn't cut off airflow altogether. I'm pretty sure my face has turned red, and there's occasionally audible wheezing, but I don't think I've ever been in danger of passing out. What does that fall under? (Just curious.)

 

[graceanne]

No, I'm not playing with breath. I'm playing with mindfuck. Airflow is not cut-off, nor is blood flow.

Same difference. You're playing with breath to fuck with their mind.

You wonder why you open these threads. Honestly, I do too. I wonder why you do, and wonder why I do. I guess in my case, I feel like giving a warning might cause the random person just getting into it to think twice, do some research, and get informed about the risks.

I'm all for giving each person A warning or two. But we normally end up with pages of pages on why you should not. A bit of overkill if you ask me.

Personally, I find it interesting that people get defensive about something that is almost universally regarded as bloody dangerous and potentially deadly. You've taken the time to understand the risks, right? Then why get defensive?

Most likely cause I'm bitchy. It's allowed to happen occasionally.

Am I saying you, or anyone else, is stupid for taking part in it? No, I'm not. I have made disparaging comments regarding ignorance. That's it. If you are informed, then you are not ignorant.

You made disparaging comments about ignorance, but you aren't saying that I, or anyone else, is stupid for taking part in it? Huh?

ETA (because I am in a Netzach mood): Breathplay is not the only edgeplay topic that gets people wound up. Scat fires everybody up too, as does bestiality.

True enough.

I despise these threads. I despise them because they keep showing up again and again due to people being too lazy to see if, wow, some other person has ever choked their partner and posted about it.

On that we can agree. If there was a thought of the day calender I'd quote that.

 

[Homburg]

Ok, I'm stupid. What's the difference? As I mentioned in my earlier post, I like to have pressure applied to my neck/throat that makes it difficult for me to breathe, but doesn't cut off airflow altogether. I'm pretty sure my face has turned red, and there's occasionally audible wheezing, but I don't think I've ever been in danger of passing out. What does that fall under? (Just curious.)

Depends on where the hands are placed and pressure is applied.

Choke = restricting blood flow
Strangle = restricting airflow

Most of these sorts of things are a mixture of both, as it is difficult to restrict one without restricting the other if one is grabbing someone around the throat.

If you are getting red in the face, yeah, there is blood/air flow restriction. It can lead to patichea (sp?), ie blotches on the face from (IIRC) blood vessels bursting under the skin (it's been a while since I read up on this)

Severe bloodflow restriction, such as a properly applied chokehold a la judo, sombo, etc, takes 6-9 seconds to induce unconsciousness. You are fine, you are fine, you are fine, you are fine, you are... um, uh, fnn.... you are - .......

Actually, it probably takes longer to read that than it does to pass out from a properly applied chokehold. Most people won't experience this in chokey-chokey during sex because the one or two-handed front grip on the throat that is the most common way of doing it doesn't actually apply the sort of pressure needed to completely close off the two big arteries leading to the brain. It compresses them, sure, and dorks up the windpipe, but it doesn't pinch them off like a Rear Naked choke, or a Sliding Lapel choke will.

Strangulation takes longer, and this is actively a bad thing. Because it takes longer to affect the victim with airflow restriction, the nerves, blood vessels, and other tissues suffer under undue compression for longer.

If you are asking what is the difference between the mindfuck version and what you do, I would say that getting red in the face is a symptom of greater pressure than what I am talking about. All of the shit mentioned above is symptomatic of the trauma associated with chokes and strangles applied to the neck.

 

[Homburg]

Same difference. You're playing with breath to fuck with their mind.

Um, no. As I said, neither air nor blood are restricted.

The book "Loving Dominant" has an example of a mindfuck involving a branding where the dominant sets up all the element of the branding - fire, branding iron, etc. Then, when the time comes to brand, he waves the hot iron around a bit, and then presses an ice cube to the spot to be branded. The bottom screams, struggles, and flips out just as if the brand was used, yet no branding happened. This is not a branding. It is a mindfuck.

In a similar vein, if the top gives the impression of restriction of blood/air, but restricts neither, it is a mindfuck, not breathplay.

I'm all for giving each person A warning or two. But we normally end up with pages of pages on why you should not. A bit of overkill if you ask me.

The last couple of breathplay threads went down like that. It's been a while since it went on like this.

Most likely cause I'm bitchy. It's allowed to happen occasionally.

Get outta here. You need to quit lying.

You made disparaging comments about ignorance, but you aren't saying that I, or anyone else, is stupid for taking part in it? Huh?

Ignorance is treatable. Stupidity is terminal.

See above where I say "You are ignorant. It's okay. That's fixable." I am ignorant of what you had for dinner. That is no comment on my mental faculties. It is simply an acknowledgement of a lack of knowledge on a given subject. Should you choose to tell me what you had for dinner, I will no longer be ignorant of the topic. I am no smarter for having learned this, and no less smart for being ignorant of it. QED, ignorant does not equal stupid.

If I honestly thought that the people involved int he conversation were stupid, I would not try to make any comments at all. It is not worth trying.

On that we can agree. If there was a thought of the day calender I'd quote that.

Choking is honestly the only topic that I really wish we had another sticky to cover. It is the bad penny of Lit BDSM.

 

[graceanne]

Get outta here. You need to quit lying.

Pbbth!

Choking is honestly the only topic that I really wish we had another sticky to cover. It is the bad penny of Lit BDSM.

A-MEN!

 

[RJMasters]

Being informed and also taking serious the risks is important.

Today I took some serious life threatening risks. I was in my car going 60 mph on a double lane two way hwy. Another car going the other way passed me doing about the same speed. The only thing that stood between certain death was a yellow line painted on the ground. Both me and the other driver knew the risks and we went for it. Its a good thing we both understood that there are certain lines you don't cross and that observing these lines prevented a 120 mph collision which would have no doubt killed us both.

I am glad there are those who take safety seriously, but for me I am confident in the level of play that I do, because I do know the dangers and I take them seriously enough to have a sober mind and action when such play is being done.

I do find it sort of funny however that I of all people would actually be doing what many on the board consider edge-play and feel a calm confidence in doing so. In my way of thinking, that should be like breaking a law of the universe or something. lol

Risk-taker Mcgee signing off for the evening. Night.

 

[CutieMouse]

Being informed and also taking serious the risks is important.

Today I took some serious life threatening risks. I was in my car going 60 mph on a double lane two way hwy. Another car going the other way passed me doing about the same speed. The only thing that stood between certain death was a yellow line painted on the ground. Both me and the other driver knew the risks and we went for it. Its a good thing we both understood that there are certain lines you don't cross and that observing these lines prevented a 120 mph collision which would have no doubt killed us both.

I am glad there are those who take safety seriously, but for me I am confident in the level of play that I do, because I do know the dangers and I take them seriously enough to have a sober mind and action when such play is being done.

I do find it sort of funny however that I of all people would actually be doing what many on the board consider edge-play and feel a calm confidence in doing so. In my way of thinking, that should be like breaking a law of the universe or something. lol

Risk-taker Mcgee signing off for the evening. Night.

I was thinking the exact.same.thing.

 

[the captians wench]

So why hasn't any one mentioned "tap outs" or other signals?

I've only ingaged in choking a couple of times, they were very short and did not involve sexual activity. The main partner I did this with was a buddy of mine who I was trading a kilt for pain play with. Gotta love the barter system. Anyway, he only ever did it for a few seconds at a time, never even a full minute. It was always just enough to try to put the fear of him into me.

But breath play can involve other things, and with most every one else I've played with it's involved having a cock down my throat and pushed in a way that I was not physically able to breath. In most cases I have been given the freedom to pull away when I need air, but in a few I had to tap out.

In the scenes where I have to tap out, my head is being held so that I can not move it, even if I struggle. His cock is cutting off my breath, and his hands are keeping me in place. I can try to pull away, but it won't do any good. I struggle until I have to have a breath now. Two quick taps on his thigh and I'm released enough to take a breath. From there it's either repeated or we move on according to his whim.

I want to mention that the two quick taps was not something that was told of me to do. It came completely natural, almost instinctual. The best kind of safe signals I think.

The other way I am either guided, but loosely enough that I can pull away when I need a breath, always keeping him in my mouth. Or, I might be given full freedom to dictate when and for how long my breath is cut off.

It is dangerous, so dangerous that Jounar will only participate in the very last bit, allowing me to see how long I can go with out his intervention at all. Kind of like holding your breath as a kid.

No it's never going to be safe. No it's not highly advisable. No there are no full proof safety precautions, but very little we do have these things. I think it's important for us to talk about what little precautions are out there and not just dismiss this as "duuuuudddeee you soooo don't want to go there"

 

[ChainedEros]

Being informed and also taking serious the risks is important.

Today I took some serious life threatening risks. I was in my car going 60 mph on a double lane two way hwy. Another car going the other way passed me doing about the same speed. The only thing that stood between certain death was a yellow line painted on the ground. Both me and the other driver knew the risks and we went for it. Its a good thing we both understood that there are certain lines you don't cross and that observing these lines prevented a 120 mph collision which would have no doubt killed us both.

I am glad there are those who take safety seriously, but for me I am confident in the level of play that I do, because I do know the dangers and I take them seriously enough to have a sober mind and action when such play is being done.

I do find it sort of funny however that I of all people would actually be doing what many on the board consider edge-play and feel a calm confidence in doing so. In my way of thinking, that should be like breaking a law of the universe or something. lol

Risk-taker Mcgee signing off for the evening. Night.

You're not the only one. Others are quite confident and comfortable. We're just not saying anything about it.

 

[DVS]

I think what we need to remember here is that some people will experiment with breath play at more dangerous levels that others will. And, like many fetishes, with more experience, some will take higher risks to achieve that ultimate rush.

While breath play can be relatively safe, when players are aware of the risks and keep within the safer areas, there will always be those who take it to the extreme and that is where the problem with breath play can be.

Sure, there are other fetishes that can also be taken to the extreme. Breath play is not the only one, by far. But, it is one of them and the OP post asked the question, so I think it is only fair that some people say that breath play can be dangerous. To say it isn't ever dangerous would not be true.

But, as long as you educate yourself about the subject, the threat levels, who's more prone to be at risk and use appropriate safeguards so that it doesn't get out of hand, the risk level can be controlled. And, as with any other new thing, never allow your partner to go beyond what you consider to be your safe zone.

Just don't say there is no degree of danger, because we all know there is some. To tell someone who's new to the fetish that there is no health risk with cutting off the breath or blood flow to your partner's brain is doing them a disservice.

The problem is people will be people. There will be those who want to take the risk to higher and higher levels to achieve that ultimate orgasm. Those who prefer to live on the edge and are willing to go to that next level of risk are also escalating the danger level.

To use RJMasters' analogy of the subject of danger, as long as you stay on your side of the road and at a speed you feel safe with, the danger level is somewhat contained. Unless something unexpected happens like maybe your car blows a tire.

This kind of lifestyle has its risks. Just be aware of what can happen. I think that's all I'm saying.

 

[RJMasters]

Well said DVS.