erased thread part ii

[madelinemasoch]

null and void.

 

[alohadave]

Don't get worked up by Whackdoodle's comments. He complains about many stories and it's not worth giving his comments a second thought.

Delete it and move on.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Thanks, but I was just throwing that in because it's kind of funny. The Anonymous comment was the big one this time.

Also, I'd like to leave their ignorance on display. They're only telling on themselves.

No, for once Whackdoodle is completely on point. This is disgusting torture porn. The fact that you don't see that is, frankly, troubling. In just this one chapter, a male character is beaten for no reason other than that a female character is in a bad mood; there's no indication that he in any way enjoys what's happening. More egregiously, another male character is raped into submission for... attempted rape. The men are being held (for the most part) against their will, and they receive no pleasure from anything being done to them.

They haven't really (outside of Brendan) done anything wrong other than being white guys that want faithful girlfriends as far as I can tell. Like one of them was kind of controlling because he wanted his high school girlfriend to live alone at college and then didn't want her to cuck him? I think? I'll be honest: I'm not reading back through the rest of your story, because every one of the handful of chapters I did take a look at seems to say "how dare white men be treated like human beings," which... honestly, the fuck?

Yeah, for once, I agree entirely with Whackdoodle's assessment, and no, "you need therapy" is not code for suggesting self-termination, at least not here. This shit ain't healthy, and I'd argue almost every chapter breaks the content submission guidelines in at least one way: sexualised violence without reciprocal pleasure in the most recent chapter and others, definitely, but also incessant racial politics asserting (apparently with a straight face) the superiority of one race over another. This is not the most fucked up thing I've ever read on Lit, but it's in the running.

More concerning, though, is your assertion that this is a revenge story, but it's a revenge story against the cucks. When we talked about why I thought this entire series belonged in NC/R previously, you said that you hadn't really looked at the violence against the character who was beaten by the bull in a flashback as NC/R material, even though it was intended to be for sexual gratification on the part of people that get off on cuck stories. The fact that you're defending this as "well, it's revenge against these guys" is troublesome.

Look, I write in LW. That place is "overdone revenge" central. People being tortured or killed for simple infidelity is wrong there, and I've never said otherwise. What these guys did doesn't even begin to rise to that level from what I can tell. The idea that "attempted rape" is reasonably punished by ACTUAL rape is... Again, I say, "the fuck?"

So, yeah. They're right. You're wrong. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your response to very reasonable criticism is to say "they don't see my genius!" Whatever you're trying to "expose" here, it ain't working, because I think your perceptions of reality are completely out of whack if you think that anything that's happened is at all an appropriate level of "punishment" for any of these characters.

 

[KeithD]

Not complaining would be just not to bother to bring it to the discussion board at all.

 

[Duleigh]

He didn't say much: just dubbed the book "torture porn" and told me "go to therapy" (a covert way of encouraging someone to take their own life)

It's a shame we don't have a category for "Best Hyperventilating Drama"

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

Apparently, all of my characters are morally bankrupt. Anonymous also calls what happened "torture" (there's no torture in the story: no waterboarding, no blaring loud music, no mutilation, no maiming, no burning, no finger-peeling, no skin-rack, no boulder crushing with Matty screaming for "more weight!", none of that stuff).

So, I clicked on the story, and this is how it starts:

Darkness was all Brendan could see, feel, or breathe in. Submerged in utter blackness for a day and a half, he was beginning to believe he would be left there to rot.
[...]
He could move his fists within the twin circular slots they had been locked into, but to no avail at all. He could shut his eyes, but only to see nothing different than the blackness of the blindfold they had fastened around his head. He could move his head up and down about a centimeter each, but he would never escape the ring around his neck by himself.

I can tell you, for a fact: What you wrote IS torture! Confining a person for two full days (since they left him for the following night as well) in total darkness, bound and shackled, with nothing to occupy their senses, breaks people.

What then followed was a graphic description of a woman beating the ever-living crap out of another bound man, for absolutely no reason other than to vent her anger on him. And during that scene, you yourself call it torture!

Everything you write about seems to be about actual torture, pain, and cruelty. And, yes, I now support Whackdoodle's statement. This is not healthy. Neither for the people reading it, nor for the person writing it. It honestly scares me.

And, since I am not exactly inclined to read the rest of your series after this introduction, let me ask you directly:
If there is no maiming as you claim, where did Robin's testicles go?

See the double standard yet? These people only care when a man is subjected to harsh treatment.

No. A story like that, with the genders reversed... I guarantee you that all hell would break loose in the comments AND the forums.

 

[NoTalentHack]

No. A story like that, with the genders reversed... I guarantee you that all hell would break loose in the comments AND the forums.

Yeah, I didn't want to go with the "if the genders were reversed" argument, but we'd have eeeeeveryone in here dinging it if they were. In fact, I doubt it would have made it past the submission process.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I've written "revenge rape" in Fucky Friday... but the punishment fit the crime. Anthony took his wife against her will, so when the roles were magically reversed, she did the same back (in the ass, but still...).

That said, the only complaints I got were from men who thought she did wrong

Even if the OP's story in question doesn't contain torture (from the descriptions, it kinda sounds like it does ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(0_o⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯ ) people will still complain when women force men downward.

 

[TheSpleen]

I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt

I did that too, on another thread the OP started. I got turned off when they then made an out-of-left field inflammatory political comment in response to a compliment I gave another author.

Anyway, as to the OP's stories: Nobody's being forced to read them chapter-by-chapter. Anyone who does so only to abuse the writer is wrong on principle. If they don't like the stories, they can give constructive criticism and move on, or just move on. If the site is aware of the content, doesn't consider it torture porn and keeps hosting it, readers don't have grounds to flame the writer.

It's also true that male fragility factors into comments and votes. In Loving Wives, NC/R and others, male characters are given passes for things that would have white male readers frothing at the mouth if a female character did.

As a general note on Whackdoodle, I've seen their commenting style and they can be the worst. They're hyperbolic when getting points across so their comments take the form of attacks when they don't like a story. The rudeness isn't defensible. But. I sometimes find myself agreeing with their point. I haven't read the OP's work. From all descriptions it's not my thing so no need wasting my time, but it's possible I wouldn't disagree with Whackdoodle about it.

In a nutshell, the problem with Whackdoodle isn't the content but the delivery. I also agree that the therapy comment probably wasn't a suggestion for the OP to unalive their self.

 

[Mastered_again]

I have no business here. Just registering my regret in satisfying my curiosity

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

If the site is aware of the content, doesn't consider it torture porn and keeps hosting it, readers don't have grounds to flame the writer.

I agree with pretty much everything else you wrote in your post, except for this one line. There are simply too many stories getting posted, just to then being pulled again, for this to be true.

I fondly remember that story where a cheated husband injected the erogenous zones of his wife with acid, so all the nevers would die off and leave her incapable of ever enjoying sex again. That story was posted, despite being nothing but an instruction manual on creative torture. And it was only pulled after being reported by a multitude of users from the forum. That's why every story has a report button that users are free to click on.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

The castration is a surgical procedure they order after the fact and not a situation where they just lop the sack off with a rusty blade or whatever you may assume. Robin was anesthetized when that happened to him.

Great. So, the guy was anesthetized before they maimed him. But they still fucking maimed him!

See how the actual material is not as egregious as you (mis)characterize it to be?

Yes. That's also why you took such great care in describing his screams, whimpers, and general sounds of agony as he receives those open-handed slaps. Because they are all absolutely harmless and not at all painful.

Chapter 14 where Matty almost gets r-worded by Brendan has Zero comments about the issue: just hindsight2020 repeating himself with "racist drivel." That would've been full-on, by the way, if not for the site's content guidelines. I still personally find that scene more disturbing than the one in 16. There's much less of the reciprocal pleasure ya'll are so fond of bringing up to me in 14 than in 16.

I'm fairly certain, with everything else you describe in Chapter fourteen, it is in no way surprising that an attempted rape was at the very bottom of your commenter's priority list. This is not proof of some kind of double standard given the content being discussed.

I'll tell you that it makes me happy to write it. No health drawbacks as far as I can tell so far.

I could make a comment about the apparently already ongoing psychological treatment you admitted to receiving in an earlier post, but that would probably end up with too much speculation on my part...

 

[MediocreAuthor]

If they don't like the stories, they can give constructive criticism and move on, or just move on. If the site is aware of the content, doesn't consider it torture porn and keeps hosting it, readers don't have grounds to flame the writer.

What, in this context, does "flame the writer" mean? Does it mean "make personal attacks"?
I suppose I agree then. They don't have the right to do things that break Lit's rules about acceptable posts.

But I feel that the readers have the right to post anything they want about any story they want (within the guidelines)... especially considering the fact that the author has both the right and the ability to delete anything they want.

I've only gotten one received one comment from Wackdoodle:

"Mediocre is a bad name for you. You should be "Shit-author"

That was mean, (a little funny) and one of the few comments I've deleted. But it was well within his rights to say it, imo

 

[Bamagan]

I've only gotten one received one comment from Wackdoodle:



That was mean, (a little funny) and one of the few comments I've deleted. But it was well within his rights to say it, imo

I interpret his behavior as lashing out at the people who give him unwanted boners. He loves our stuff, and hates himself for loving it, and has to project.

 

[NoTalentHack]

That's because it isn't written in his POV. Also, the reason is because she just got dumped. But nobody seems to care about the subversion where it's set up so that it seems Leya will leave Finn for Jamal at the end, but gets left by Jamal before that can even happen.

Oh, she got dumped? Yes, of course that excuses aggravated assault. How silly of me.

This is just not true. There wouldn't be extraneous descriptions of the girls' tits if it was. Let's just put it that way.

Here's the thing; I can't show a character enjoyed something if I'm not writing in their POV for that section. Do you really think Brendan, the pervert, porn-addicted, self-admitted fluffer of cocks, and sissy-enjoyer didn't enjoy being fucked in the ass even a bit? Of course he did. He thanks them at the end.

Except... the whole thing is written in third person. That's one of the great things about writing in third person, even close third person, which this doesn't seem to be. You can just say, "he totally got off on this." You even do it earlier in this chapter! And as to thanking him, the dude literally just raped him and it's clear the rape can continue. Of course he says he's learned his lesson and "thank you!" That's what torture does to people: it makes them do whatever they need to get the torture to stop.

He struggled to find the reason why he should feel badly for what he'd done, aside from the fact that if he hadn't done it--if he had only stayed in his room that night--he may still have the same limited amount of freedom as the other losers. Perhaps if he hadn't been such a coward, he would have made a run for it long before then, or at least tried to escape with Finn and Mason that one time.

How does she know he's struggling, if it's supposed to be POV? How does she know his internal thinking? She doesn't.

The change of scenery was nice, she thought--though there were markedly less black cocks around. Dominik was all she had, and all she really needed in that regard, unless some wild tsunami of disorder was about to break into her life unannounced.

"The change of scenery was nice, she thought." She thought. It's right there. "My, I'm enjoying this big cock in my ass quite a lot more than I expected," he thought.

You can't both say "well, it's a POV thing, the lovingly lingering on tits is clearly supposed to be because the guys are paying attention to them, I can't just SAY they are" and then turn around and explicitly state another character's thoughts, ESPECIALLY if you still sometimes include that other character's internal struggles. Not in third person POV. You can't have your cake and eat it, too; at least not if you want to put something coherent together.

Everything they've done in the past isn't described or revealed yet. Also, the punishment isn't supposed to be proportional. It's just: don't fuck with Eleanor. That's the point.

O... kay. And that's still, you know... wrong? Like, the question the commenters had about "why would they put up with this?" in an earlier chapter are perfectly reasonable questions to have. Even "FFS, if someone did that to me, I'd come back with a gun and make shit right" is understandable.

I mean, their comments portray a very literal misunderstanding of the material they're supposedly reading, but I covered that in both posts already. Again, the punishment isn't supposed to be "appropriate" by any normal moral standard. It's supposed to be worse, because that's who the characters are. You don't have to agree with them or even like them, but that's who they are. Not necessarily who I am. But who I am is supposed to be ambiguous, so I'll leave it at that. This isn't about my perceptions of reality, it's about the characters' perceptions within an idea I just happened to be the catcher of.

You keep saying "they don't get what I'm saying," but it's not on them to get it. It's on you to relay it. I've tried to give yout he benefit of the doubt in the past, but you aren't relaying it. Not only are you not relaying it, but your methods of relaying what you ARE relaying are contradictory. You tell internal thoughts sometimes and you don't others, but then claim the reader should be able to figure it out based on what you describe. Hell, the fact that Matty is named Madeline... I can very easily understand why the readers think these are really things you believe.

It is not a literal misunderstanding of the material. It's a failure to convey what you want them to understand. You are communicating what you want to poorly in the story, and you're choosing to believe the worst of your readers (saying they want you to kill yourself? Really?) because they react poorly to your failure to convey information. You have multiple writers telling you this. Go back through and read it as though you didn't know what you were trying to convey with the story, because I'll say this: I have no fucking clue where you're going with this.

 

[madelinemasoch]

Great. So, the guy was anesthetized before they maimed him. But they still fucking maimed him!

It's a surgery.

Yes. That's also why you took such great care in describing his screams, whimpers, and general sounds of agony as he receives those open-handed slaps. Because they are all absolutely harmless and not at all painful.

...is a character never supposed to be in physical pain?

I'm fairly certain, with everything else you describe in Chapter fourteen, it is in no way surprising that an attempted rape was at the very bottom of your commenter's priority list. This is not proof of some kind of double standard given the content being discussed.

LOL. You are the problem I'm criticizing. 14 is pretty tame aside from that last scene in question. Eleanor's getting fucked rough, orgy's happening around her, she makes him cum in Robin's mouth instead of on herself, then Matty's being comforted by an attractive black woman because she's fallen into sadness for not being there with her...

Wow, how horrible!

The fact that you think any of those things is more egregious than a character being sexually harassed outside of the boundaries set by the normal standards of operation exposes that the double standard exists within you, as well.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

It's a surgery.

Now I know you're just trolling.

Moving on.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

Just for the record...

I didn't half-ass anything, and I don't give a fuck about the rise it got out of you. That's not why I wrote it.

Also you, after you have been accused of intentionally writing the OPPOSITE of what readers want:

But the reason why I'm pissed is the same reason why I want to write something like that deliberately. It's just a motivator. I don't see anything wrong with using that as a motivator.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I didn't make them stupid.

You appear to have a very low regard for your readers, yet you repeatedly come here bewailing they don't get you.

Who was it said, "The customer's always right. Even when they're wrong, refer Rule #1"?

 

[StillStunned]

If I've learned one thing from spending a quantifiable part of my adult life on discussion forums, it's this: any disagreement is less likely to be resolved every time a new post is added.

Essentially, if you don't agree with each other after the first two or three posts, you're never going to. All further engagements are just a shouting match that leaves everyone unhappy.

 

[TheSpleen]

I agree with pretty much everything else you wrote in your post, except for this one line

Then we agree completely. Stories violating the content guidelines sometimes get through, so they should be reported. The story you mention, yes that shit should definitely be removed. I'd like to believe the reason it got posted in the first place is that the site mod wasn't really aware.

That said, when the site is aware of content and chooses to keep hosting it, I wouldn't bother flaming the author. For instance, there was a story several readers and forum users reported as snuff. It got removed, but then reinstated when the author made a case for it. At that point, the answer is to move on, not comment abusively.

What, in this context, does "flame the writer" mean? Does it mean "make personal attacks"?

Yes.

But I feel that the readers have the right to post anything they want about any story they want

I agree they do. But they don't have the right to be abusive. That's never justified, no matter how much they hate the story. Not to say their feedback can't be honest. It's possible to be negative, even very negative, without turning it into an attack.

As for Whackdoodle's comment to you, yes it pushes the line. It would have been fine for them to give reasons why they don't like your work, but blanket-calling you shit was unnecessary. I'd delete it too.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Then we agree completely. Stories violating the content guidelines sometimes get through, so they should be reported. The story you mention, yes that shit should definitely be removed. I'd like to believe the reason it got posted in the first place is that the site mod wasn't really aware.

That said, when the site is aware of content and chooses to keep hosting it, I wouldn't bother flaming the author. For instance, there was a story several readers and forum users reported as snuff. It got removed, but then reinstated when the author made a case for it. At that point, the answer is to move on, not comment abusively.

As you've said it yourself, there are worse stories hosted on this website than the stuff that is being described in this thread. Many have been reported but they are still there.

I am amazed that no one wanted to assume that these stories go through the process and remain online because Lit wants them to stay online, not because - or not only because they "slip through" the system. As I've mentioned before, the problems of this site are story-side, not forum-side, and the problems I mention are not created by authors.

 

[TheSpleen]

Go for a walk. Choose a random passerby and follow them. Observe the way they walk, talk, and move their hands.

 

[TheSpleen]

Hi there, Tilan

if, by chance, you didn't get to read my stuff

I promise I did try, but my eyeballs just viscerally rejected all your words.

This alt will disappear tomorrow,

It's what we're all praying for.

And if, by chance, you didn't get to read my stuff, don't worry. Your great-great-great-grandchildren will.

They'd have better sense than to do so intentionally. If they do by mistake, I hope they have a handy saline solution for the eye rinses they'll need.

I'm finished with you. I sincerely hope the rest of your weekend is enjoyable enough that the highlight of it isn't trolling. Bye.

 

[SimonDoom]

Then we agree completely. Stories violating the content guidelines sometimes get through, so they should be reported.

I understand that some people feel this way, but I do not. It's up to the Site to enforce its content rules. If they let something slip, it's fine with me. I feel no obligation to report nonconforming stories. I don't think I ever have reported a story and I doubt I ever will.