English teacher in Sudan falls fouls of evil seven years olds...

Calls in Sudan for Execution of Briton
Published: 11/30/07, 11:25 AM EDT
By MOHAMED OSMAN
KHARTOUM, Sudan (AP) - Thousands of Sudanese, many armed with clubs and knives, rallied Friday in a central square and demanded the execution of a British teacher convicted of insulting Islam for allowing her students to name a teddy bear "Muhammad."

In response to the demonstration, teacher Gillian Gibbons was moved from the women's prison near Khartoum to a secret location for her safety, her lawyer said.

The protesters streamed out of mosques after Friday sermons, as pickup trucks with loudspeakers blared messages against Gibbons, who was sentenced Thursday to 15 days in prison and deportation. She avoided the more serious punishment of 40 lashes.

They massed in central Martyrs Square outside the presidential palace, where hundreds of riot police were deployed. They did not try to stop the rally, which lasted about an hour.

"Shame, shame on the U.K.," protesters chanted.

They called for Gibbons' execution, saying, "No tolerance: Execution," and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad."

Gibbons' chief lawyer, Kamal al-Gizouli, said she was moved from the prison for her safety for the final nine days of her sentence.

"They moved this lady from the prison department to put her in other hands and in other places to cover her and wait until she completes her imprisonment period," he said, adding that she was in good health.

"They want, by hook or by crook, to complete these nine days without any difficulties, which would have an impact on their foreign relationship," he said.

Several hundred protesters, not openly carrying weapons, marched from the square to Unity High School, about a mile away, where Gibbons worked. They chanted slogans outside the school, which is closed and under heavy security, then headed toward the nearby British Embassy. They were stopped by security forces two blocks away from the embassy.

The protest arose despite vows by Sudanese security officials the day before, during Gibbons' trial, that threatened demonstrations after Friday prayers would not take place. Some of the protesters carried green banners with the name of the Society for Support of the Prophet Muhammad, a previously unknown group.

Many protesters carried clubs, knives and axes - but not automatic weapons, which some have brandished at past government-condoned demonstrations. That suggested Friday's rally was not organized by the government.

A Muslim cleric at Khartoum's main Martyrs Mosque denounced Gibbons during one sermon, saying she intentionally insulted Islam. He did not call for protests, however.

"Imprisoning this lady does not satisfy the thirst of Muslims in Sudan. But we welcome imprisonment and expulsion," the cleric, Abdul-Jalil Nazeer al-Karouri, a well-known hard-liner, told worshippers.

"This an arrogant woman who came to our country, cashing her salary in dollars, teaching our children hatred of our Prophet Muhammad," he said.

Britain, meanwhile, pursued diplomatic moves to free Gibbons. Prime Minister Gordon Brown spoke with a member of her family to convey his regret, his spokeswoman said.

"He set out his concern and the fact that we were doing all we could to secure her release," spokeswoman Emily Hands told reporters.

Most Britons expressed shock at the verdict by a court in Khartoum, alongside hope it would not raise tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims in Britain.

"One of the good things is the U.K. Muslims who've condemned the charge as completely out of proportion," said Paul Wishart, 37, a student in London.

"In the past, people have been a bit upset when different atrocities have happened and there hasn't been much voice in the U.K. Islamic population, whereas with this, they've quickly condemned it."

Muhammad Abdul Bari, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, accused the Sudanese authorities of "gross overreaction."

"This case should have required only simple common sense to resolve. It is unfortunate that the Sudanese authorities were found wanting in this most basic of qualities," he said.

The Muslim Public Affairs Committee, a political advocacy group, said the prosecution was "abominable and defies common sense."

The Federation of Student Islamic Societies, which represents 90,000 Muslim students in Britain and Ireland, called on Sudan's government to free Gibbons, saying she had not meant to cause offense.

"We are deeply concerned that the verdict to jail a schoolteacher due to what's likely to be an innocent mistake is gravely disproportionate," said the group's president, Ali Alhadithi.

The Ramadhan Foundation, a Muslim youth organization, said Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir should pardon the teacher.

"The Ramadhan Foundation is disappointed and horrified by the conviction of Gillian Gibbons in Sudan," said spokesman Mohammed Shafiq.

Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, spiritual leader of the world's 77 million Anglicans, said Gibbons' prosecution and conviction was "an absurdly disproportionate response to what is at worst a cultural faux pas."

Foreign Secretary David Miliband summoned the Sudanese ambassador late Thursday to express Britain's disappointment with the verdict. The Foreign Office said Britain would continue diplomatic efforts to achieve "a swift resolution" to the crisis.

Gibbons was arrested Sunday after another staff member at the school complained that she had allowed her 7-year-old students to name a teddy bear Muhammad. Giving the name of the Muslim prophet to an animal or a toy could be considered insulting.

The case put Sudan's government in an embarrassing position - facing the anger of Britain on one side and potential trouble from powerful Islamic hard-liners on the other. Many saw the 15-day sentence as an attempt to appease both sides.

In The Times, columnist Bronwen Maddox said the verdict was "something of a fudge ... designed to give a nod to British reproof but also to appease the street."

Britain's response - applying diplomatic pressure while extolling ties with Sudan and affirming respect for Islam - had produced mixed results, British commentators concluded.

In an editorial, The Daily Telegraph said Miliband "has tiptoed around the case, avoiding a threat to cut aid and asserting that respect for Islam runs deep in Britain. Given that much of the government's financial support goes to the wretched refugees in Darfur and neighboring Chad, Mr. Miliband's caution is understandable."

Now, however, the newspaper said, Britain should recall its ambassador in Khartoum and impose sanctions on the Sudanese regime.

___

Associated Press writers Jill Lawless, David Stringer and Kate Schuman in London contributed to this report.
 
This is getting completely out of hand. This quote especially speaks for itself:

"Imprisoning this lady does not satisfy the thirst of Muslims in Sudan. But we welcome imprisonment and expulsion," the cleric, Abdul-Jalil Nazeer al-Karouri, a well-known hard-liner, told worshippers.

"This an arrogant woman who came to our country, cashing her salary in dollars, teaching our children hatred of our Prophet Muhammad," he said.

It shows nothing but his blind hatred, and complete disregard of the facts.
 
Fuck them. If she is injured in any way at all the Brits should pull all diplomatic and civilian personnel and through the sudanesse diplomats in prison on some trumped up charge. If she gets killed on the way out of the country they should execute all the Sudanesse diplomats.

It's all the middle east seems to understand. A show of force.
 
Lisa Denton said:
Calls in Sudan for Execution of Briton
Published: 11/30/07, 11:25 AM EDT
By MOHAMED OSMAN
KHARTOUM, Sudan (AP) - Thousands of Sudanese, many armed with clubs and knives, rallied Friday in a central square and demanded the execution of a British teacher convicted of insulting Islam for allowing her students to name a teddy bear "Muhammad."

In response to the demonstration, teacher Gillian Gibbons was moved from the women's prison near Khartoum to a secret location for her safety, her lawyer said.
Goes to prove, Lisa, the courts in Khartoum were reasonable and intellegent. The woman will spend 15 days behind prison walls where the ax weilding insane cannot reach her, then be transported to the airport and shuffled quickly out of the cournty, most likely in the middle of the night.

Could she have been caned or executed? Yes. However, the court saw an outcome of serious international importance which obviously the morons running the Sudanese government did not.
 
Jenny_Jackson said:
Goes to prove, Lisa, the courts in Khartoum were reasonable and intellegent. The woman will spend 15 days behind prison walls where the ax weilding insane cannot reach her, then be transported to the airport and shuffled quickly out of the cournty, most likely in the middle of the night.

Could she have been caned or executed? Yes. However, the court saw an outcome of serious international importance which obviously the morons running the Sudanese government did not.

Yes, but if the ax weilding insane who want her dead are the respectable law abiding citizens I kinda wonder about the people in the prison where she was locked up, or the people wherever she is locked up now.

I agreed with this quote:
"The Muslim Public Affairs Committee, a political advocacy group, said the prosecution was "abominable and defies common sense"

But of course they are not a sudanese based organization and therefore, could be argued to be ignorant of the cultural and religious issues.

Or at least that might be argued by some who know more who are not a member of that committee, sudanese citizens, or a member of any sudanese based organizations.

:rose:
 
Jenny_Jackson said:
Ok... so the thing that's really confusing is this -

You can name your kid Muhammad ut not your teddy bear? :eek:

Yup.

Naming a child is a question of piety and respect. Craven images - think of the Danish cartoons - is heresy. A bear in Sudan is particularly insulting.

But, hey, we're all falling for a political gambit here.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
OG

The bottom-line is people have to decide which team they support. Whose colors do you wear to the game?

The first time I was in combat I agonized over all the relevant aspects of the situation, but when the shooting started I had to pick my team....like it or not.

We Brits are not at war with Sudan. We are trying, with others, to get the Sudanese government to address the crimes committed in Darfur.

This incident has not helped the international effort, nor the Sudanese government, to deal with the real problems of Sudan. It has been policitised to become a dispute between the fanatics and those who want to improve the situation in Sudan. The overreaction has been condemned by many groups of Muslims around the world, including in Sudan.

Muslims are NOT the enemy. Those who pervert the Muslim religion as a means of seeking war at any cost are the enemies, not just of the Western powers, but of their fellow Muslims.

What is needed is not condemnation of the Sudanese government and judiciary, but mutual abhorrence of the hatred fostered in the name of Islam.

We need to distinguish between those who are enemies of reasonable behaviour and those, who might not be our friends, but who are also trying to prevent those who want to destroy any government that does not agree with the extreme views of a minority.

Og
 
oggbashan said:
We Brits are not at war with Sudan. We are trying, with others, to get the Sudanese government to address the crimes committed in Darfur.

This incident has not helped the international effort, nor the Sudanese government, to deal with the real problems of Sudan. It has been policitised to become a dispute between the fanatics and those who want to improve the situation in Sudan. The overreaction has been condemned by many groups of Muslims around the world, including in Sudan.

Muslims are NOT the enemy. Those who pervert the Muslim religion as a means of seeking war at any cost are the enemies, not just of the Western powers, but of their fellow Muslims.

What is needed is not condemnation of the Sudanese government and judiciary, but mutual abhorrence of the hatred fostered in the name of Islam.

We need to distinguish between those who are enemies of reasonable behaviour and those, who might not be our friends, but who are also trying to prevent those who want to destroy any government that does not agree with the extreme views of a minority.

Og
Well spoken :rose:
 
sr and slyc, I broadly agree with you.

Lisa, with all respect, you are ranting without really knowing the facts.

I checked, Sharia law does NOT apply in Sudan. Sudan is an oligarchy controlled by al-Qaida sympathisers who want people like you to react in the way you do.

Today's demonstration was so obviously stage managed as to be ridiculous. The court seemed to take a politically sensible escape route. Sorry, the teacher - through stupidity not intent - broke the law.

Yes, children in the US are banned from singing religious songs at Xmas, using names like Jesus or Mohammad for toys in schools is illegal under the constitution.

We persecute women who want to wear the niqab.

Given all the circumstaces, I think Ms Gibbins should be grateful to get out of this so lightly.

She hadn't malicious intent, she was just too proud.
 
lloyd_5 said:
sr and slyc, I broadly agree with you.

Lisa, with all respect, you are ranting without really knowing the facts.

I checked, Sharia law does NOT apply in Sudan. Sudan is an oligarchy controlled by al-Qaida sympathisers who want people like you to react in the way you do.

Today's demonstration was so obviously stage managed as to be ridiculous. The court seemed to take a politically sensible escape route. Sorry, the teacher - through stupidity not intent - broke the law.

Yes, children in the US are banned from singing religious songs at Xmas, using names like Jesus or Mohammad for toys in schools is illegal under the constitution.

We persecute women who want to wear the niqab.

Given all the circumstaces, I think Ms Gibbins should be grateful to get out of this so lightly.

She hadn't malicious intent, she was just too proud.

When did discussion became ranting around here and who on earth are you?

No, I don't know all the facts, I wasn't even in the courtroom, and in particular I never mentioned sharia law so what are you talking about?

The last sentence is even more puzzlin, are you saying she was too proud to tell the children to name the teddybear JoeBob?

Did the entire GB migrate to the AH lately or something?

:rose:
 
In all the over-heated reaction from all sides, I think a nod of respect to the Sudanese court is called for.

They tiptoed through a minefield, found a punishment that was sufficiently severe for local consumption and repected international concern.

Then they took advantage of a politically organized 'protest' to get the woman out of prison and put her under house arrest. 'for her security'. I'm impressed.

Lisa, and others, please see this is not a religious problem but political. Read the comments of Og, slyc, lloyd and sr.

In a third world country in the midst of civil war, Ms Gibbins was silly, perhaps naive, and a deal of respect is owed to a judiciary who extricated her from the brown stuff with a degree of subtlety.

We should be cognisant of that.
 
elfin_odalisque said:
In all the over-heated reaction from all sides, I think a nod of respect to the Sudanese court is called for.

They tiptoed through a minefield, found a punishment that was sufficiently severe for local consumption and repected international concern.

Then they took advantage of a politically organized 'protest' to get the woman out of prison and put her under house arrest. 'for her security'. I'm impressed.

Lisa, and others, please see this is not a religious problem but political. Read the comments of Og, slyc, lloyd and sr.

In a third world country in the midst of civil war, Ms Gibbins was silly, perhaps naive, and a deal of respect is owed to a judiciary who extricated her from the brown stuff with a degree of subtlety.

We should be cognisant of that.

I believe I said it was a political statement several times, and I was having a amicable discussion with peoples whose opinions I respect like Og.

I read this quote by someone you named, it was the start of any "heat", and it was neither religious or political, but personally insulting. Stand behind it if you want, but don't tell me to re-read it.

"Originally Posted by sr71plt
Yep, you're missing something. And this is where you go off the rails in not being able to see beyond your nose.

Where have you been? Under a rock?

You must lead an insular life if you can't grasp that this isn't about you and your apparently hermetic perceptions.

What you think about that is pretty irrelevant to the case and to Muslim culture.

What you can't comprehend here is .......

........... you're the one who isn't comprehending."

:rose:
 
Last edited:
Let's say that the above quoted opinion is the correct one. It doesn't matter if this hapless Englishwoman had been living under a rock or in a cave, or if she didn't look beyond her own nose.

Taking umbrage over an ignorant violation of ettiquette or protocol, or even a religious tenet that has nothing to do with theft or murder and demanding lashes over it, let alone the death penalty, is pre-20th-century stuff, is not worthy of a culture that wishes to engage the rest of the world in the 21st century.

Nowadays, colonialising over countries and telling the natives that you just don't go killing people over stuff like that evidently is not cool anymore. Therefore, the sooner we in the west develop our own sources of energy where we don't have to depend on their oil, and leave them to stew in their own juices, the better.
 
SlickTony said:
Let's say that the above quoted opinion is the correct one. It doesn't matter if this hapless Englishwoman had been living under a rock or in a cave, or if she didn't look beyond her own nose.

Taking umbrage over an ignorant violation of ettiquette or protocol, or even a religious tenet that has nothing to do with theft or murder and demanding lashes over it, let alone the death penalty, is pre-20th-century stuff, is not worthy of a culture that wishes to engage the rest of the world in the 21st century.

Nowadays, colonialising over countries and telling the natives that you just don't go killing people over stuff like that evidently is not cool anymore. Therefore, the sooner we in the west develop our own sources of energy where we don't have to depend on their oil, and leave them to stew in their own juices, the better.

Tony, the obove qouted opinion was directed to me, not the woman in the subject, it was the start of some heated discussions, in particular I replied to the post with a Fuck off to the person.

Which I thought was a polite and subtle reponse to what he said to me.

Oh well, I'm off to look at some forums like the AH used to be, without a bunch of personal shit being hurled at me for stating my opinions.
 
Lisa Denton said:
Tony, the obove qouted opinion was directed to me, not the woman in the subject, it was the start of some heated discussions, in particular I replied to the post with a Fuck off to the person.

Which I thought was a polite and subtle reponse to what he said to me.

Oh well, I'm off to look at some forums like the AH used to be, without a bunch of personal shit being hurled at me for stating my opinions.

Thanks for the clarification. But my opinion of the Sudanese and their attitude stands.
 
Lisa Denton said:
Tony, the obove qouted opinion was directed to me, not the woman in the subject, it was the start of some heated discussions, in particular I replied to the post with a Fuck off to the person.

Which I thought was a polite and subtle reponse to what he said to me.

Oh well, I'm off to look at some forums like the AH used to be, without a bunch of personal shit being hurled at me for stating my opinions.

I stand by what I posted (which led not only to your use of profanity--which I never used--but also to your charge that I was posting what I did because I was anti-women). The situation was repeatedly explained to you and what is at stake are the perceptions in the Sudan, not yours--which are quite uninformed, as I noted (and as you admitted when you made conclusions on what Muslims believe and then admitted you've never even read the Koran). You continually refused to understand or absorb what you were being told, so, yes, I think you are clueless on this. I also don't think you are 18 yet. These are not the postings of an adult.
 
sr71plt said:
I stand by what I posted (which led not only to your use of profanity--which I never used--but also to your charge that I was posting what I did because I was anti-women). The situation was repeatedly explained to you and what is at stake are the perceptions in the Sudan, not yours--which are quite uninformed, as I noted (and as you admitted when you made conclusions on what Muslims believe and then admitted you've never even read the Koran). You continually refused to understand or absorb what you were being told, so, yes, I think you are clueless on this. I also don't think you are 18 yet. These are not the postings of an adult.

I stand by what I said Fuck off.

You started by a personal attack on me, insults are insults without profanity. Yours were directed at me personally and without any provocation.

You immediately insulted Jenny when she asked a question, but I insinuated you may have gotten us mixed up, you make your views on women clear with statements like "refusing to absorb what you are being told" and I don't think you are anti-women, you feel they are just useless.

I doubt if you could fly your airplane out of the cereal box it came in and your mother posting as Loyld and saying "I don't know nothing but I agree with everything he says" was actually quite funny, tell her I enjoyed that part.

I never said anything about what muslims believe but that I think peoples of any culture or religion who want to interact with other cultures shoud have some tolerance.

You end this post with some childish insults.

You came in here and blasted me personally and your "take no prisoners, kill em all" attitude was never intended as discussion. You don't want to discuss, its a war of the words you want to win at all costs and extra points for insults and open hatred and hostility. It shows your outlook on life and how you feel powerless and impotent as you hide behind on-line aninimity to bravely shout your hatred, afraid to do so in person, or to have a discussion, with disagreements, and without insults.

I will not childishly say you are immature, you sir, are an asshole.

:rose:
 
I . . . .

You know, I wish I could say something here, but this is just too ridiculous.
 
slyc_willie said:
I . . . .

You know, I wish I could say something here, but this is just too ridiculous.

I'm content with what has been said reflects. :)
 
I was quite shocked to find out the West is sending foreign aid to Sudan. Why on Earth would we be doing that, given their abysmal record on civil liberties and their condoning of the atrocities in Darfur? I say cut them off without a penny. I would have said that even before this latest abomination, by the way. :mad:
 
Boxlicker101 said:
I was quite shocked to find out the West is sending foreign aid to Sudan. Why on Earth would we be doing that, given their abysmal record on civil liberties and their condoning of the atrocities in Darfur? I say cut them off without a penny. I would have said that even before this latest abomination, by the way. :mad:

Why wouldn't we? It's an exercise in gaining sympathy with a potential ally.

The Sudanese government, after all, showed leniency toward Gibbons. That shows the possibility of influence on our part.
 
Boxlicker101 said:
I was quite shocked to find out the West is sending foreign aid to Sudan. Why on Earth would we be doing that, given their abysmal record on civil liberties and their condoning of the atrocities in Darfur? I say cut them off without a penny. I would have said that even before this latest abomination, by the way. :mad:

Well, we're sending it to the Sudanese people, actually--not least for propaganda purposes aimed in several directions. There is political posturing involved (not least internal pressure inside the United States about not doing whatever we can for the people in Dafur in spite of the Sudanese Government). It's one of those one step backward, hopefully two steps forward shuffles that go on because issues like this aren't nicely laid out in a "all you bad people over there and all you nice people over here" pattern.
 
sr71plt said:
Well, we're sending it to the Sudanese people, actually--not least for propaganda purposes aimed in several directions. There is political posturing involved (not least internal pressure inside the United States about not doing whatever we can for the people in Dafur in spite of the Sudanese Government). It's one of those one step backward, hopefully two steps forward shuffles that go on because issues like this aren't nicely laid out in a "all you bad people over there and all you nice people over here" pattern.

The Sudanese people? You mean the ones who took to the streets calling for killing this British woman for a harmless gaffe? Or, do you mean the ones who sat at home and didn't counter demonstrate, or do anything else?

Does it occur to you that we are basically buying the weapons and other things they use in their genocide?
 
Boxlicker101 said:
The Sudanese people? You mean the ones who took to the streets calling for killing this British woman for a harmless gaffe? Or, do you mean the ones who sat at home and didn't counter demonstrate, or do anything else?

Does it occur to you that we are basically buying the weapons and other things they use in their genocide?

Ah, yes, I see. You don't want to win their hearts and souls and coexist with others on the planet; you just want to mow them down and set up house on their land--thus fomenting all the nonsense like we're experiencing now between now and when we can goose step into their country (assuming we can find more warm bodies to do our goose stepping).

In that case, I guess you won't be sending any aid. The U.S. government has different policies and perspectives, most of them formed from a balancing of the needs and perspectives they feel they have to juggle.

To change that, guess you'll have to find candidates who agree with your approach and vote for them. Fine with me.

And as far as weapons, yes, it occurs to me that we, as the world's largest supplier--to almost anyone willing to pay--are providing most of the weapons turned against us (both internationally and domestically). For instance, we could be sure that the Iraqis did have weapons of mass destruction at one time, because we sold them to Iraq--to use on Iran. Our tough luck that they didn't keep any to justify our reasoning for invading Iraq. :)
 
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