England to 'decentralize' National Health Plan!

[amicus]

No, the degree of penalty is quite relevant. It just doesn't bode well for your side of the argument so you choose to disregard it. The government isn't trying to force everyone at gunpoint to buy their insurance as you are trying to imply. That is just spin.

They are only illegally here because we have stricter immigration now which isn't their fault or choice. If you choose to argue about the moral implications of individual rights then that argument should apply equally to all issues.[/QUOTE]

~~~

Well you are persistent even if you are in error. The government is trying to force everyone to buy insurance and the penalties are written into law already; they range from fines to jail sentences and of course, raiding your bank and savings accounts. Read the Bill.

The US has some of the most open immigration policies of any nation in the world. In Mexico, where many of our immigrants come from, you are required to carry your passport or visa and if you do not, you go to a Mexican jail and thas no picnic.

I do argue that human rights are held by all humans in all countries and in all times. That does not mean that the United States can protect the rights of all, even though we have, for the past hundred years, gone to the assistance of all oppressed people as we were able to do so.

Perhaps if you explain your moral and political philosophy in detail, we can discover where you go off the track?

Amicus

 

[Seduc1ove]

No, the degree of penalty is quite relevant. It just doesn't bode well for your side of the argument so you choose to disregard it. The government isn't trying to force everyone at gunpoint to buy their insurance as you are trying to imply. That is just spin.

They are only illegally here because we have stricter immigration now which isn't their fault or choice. If you choose to argue about the moral implications of individual rights then that argument should apply equally to all issues.[/QUOTE]

~~~

Well you are persistent even if you are in error. The government is trying to force everyone to buy insurance and the penalties are written into law already; they range from fines to jail sentences and of course, raiding your bank and savings accounts. Read the Bill.

The US has some of the most open immigration policies of any nation in the world. In Mexico, where many of our immigrants come from, you are required to carry your passport or visa and if you do not, you go to a Mexican jail and thas no picnic.

I do argue that human rights are held by all humans in all countries and in all times. That does not mean that the United States can protect the rights of all, even though we have, for the past hundred years, gone to the assistance of all oppressed people as we were able to do so.

Perhaps if you explain your moral and political philosophy in detail, we can discover where you go off the track?

Amicus

No, you argue it is morally wrong to require under any circumstance someone to do anything that is decided by the majority of people. I would say that taxes and laws fall under this umbrella, but I bet you are glad we have those. I would also say that it is far more wrong to force someone to live under the conditions that force them to so desperately want to come to our country. Going to their assistance does not make them U.S. citizens and will never give them our rights or freedoms. Someone who would so easily throw these people to the wolves because of where they were born should never argue on the principle of basic morality especially regarding something as trite as a small tax penalty for not having health insurance which most people who work already have.

 

[amicus]

No, you argue it is morally wrong to require under any circumstance someone to do anything that is decided by the majority of people. I would say that taxes and laws fall under this umbrella, but I bet you are glad we have those. I would also say that it is far more wrong to force someone to live under the conditions that force them to so desperately want to come to our country. Going to their assistance does not make them U.S. citizens and will never give them our rights or freedoms. Someone who would so easily throw these people to the wolves because of where they were born should never argue on the principle of basic morality especially regarding something as trite as a small tax penalty for not having health insurance which most people who work already have.

~~~

That is a long and rambling paragraph but you appear to be sincere, so I will try to untangle it for you.

No, you argue it is morally wrong to require under any circumstance someone to do anything that is decided by the majority of people. I would say that taxes and laws fall under this umbrella, but I bet you are glad we have those.

It is morally wrong to force someone to do something against their will.

Taxes and Laws do fall under that umbrella, but in the United States, government is limited, by law, as to what it can and can not do.

If you follow US History since the beginning, you will witness a long struggle between those who want less or more government. Our government does not just follow the majority of voters or representatives to determine what becomes law, it is weighed against the Constitution and in many cases, is placed before the judgment of the Supreme Court to determine its' constitutionality.

Approximately 20 US States are questioning the constitutionality of the Obamacare plan and it will go before the Supreme Court.

I would also say that it is far more wrong to force someone to live under the conditions that force them to so desperately want to come to our country.

There is and has been injustice all over the world, but I will not accept blame for the conditions of people in other countries. I would personally like to invade Mexico and set the people free to live their lives as they chose.

I understand your belief that everyone is entitled to healthcare; my question to you remains, what gives you the right to force me to pay for your healthcare?

I earn my money by working; I have the right to spend it as I choose, not as you choose. Most people are quite willing, as I am, to pay a percent or two of what I earn to fund an army, the courts and a police force, all constitutionally authorized.

Beyond that, if you wish to help others, you may, but do not threaten my existence by attempting to force me to follow your dream; I have my own, thank you.

Amicus

 

[Seduc1ove]

~~~

That is a long and rambling paragraph but you appear to be sincere, so I will try to untangle it for you.



It is morally wrong to force someone to do something against their will.

Taxes and Laws do fall under that umbrella, but in the United States, government is limited, by law, as to what it can and can not do.

If you follow US History since the beginning, you will witness a long struggle between those who want less or more government. Our government does not just follow the majority of voters or representatives to determine what becomes law, it is weighed against the Constitution and in many cases, is placed before the judgment of the Supreme Court to determine its' constitutionality.

Approximately 20 US States are questioning the constitutionality of the Obamacare plan and it will go before the Supreme Court.



There is and has been injustice all over the world, but I will not accept blame for the conditions of people in other countries. I would personally like to invade Mexico and set the people free to live their lives as they chose.

I understand your belief that everyone is entitled to healthcare; my question to you remains, what gives you the right to force me to pay for your healthcare?

I earn my money by working; I have the right to spend it as I choose, not as you choose. Most people are quite willing, as I am, to pay a percent or two of what I earn to fund an army, the courts and a police force, all constitutionally authorized.

Beyond that, if you wish to help others, you may, but do not threaten my existence by attempting to force me to follow your dream; I have my own, thank you.

Amicus

Yes, and the Supreme Court is also balanced as well and is not infallible. I also like how you earlier stated that the Constitution is written in stone and easy to understand yet you acknowledge the place of the Supreme Court to actually have to interpret it in order to determine the limits of government.

Your quite random argument has gone from ineffective to morally wrong to unconstitutional. You also seem completely unable to have a conversation without both insulting and being condescending to the person you are speaking to and the healthcare reform which you dub "Obamacare".

By 20 US states did you mean 20 Republicans?

Again, you contradict yourself by saying taxes and laws are not morally right, but somehow if the constitution allows them then it becomes okay. So unless the new reform is found unconstitutional then you should have no problem at all with it just like the other taxes and laws decided by the majority and everyone is forced to obey?

As I said numerous times that you refuse to listen to no one is "threatening your existence". I'd really love to know how a small tax penalty could "threaten your existence". I'd also love to know if you already have health insurance. In which case you are arguing completely out of your ass because you are arguing for a possible penalty that would never even apply to you. Your next statement would be that you should stand up against this even if it doesn't affect you because it is morally wrong. Then why aren't you standing up against the other more morally objectionable things going on in the world? Why waste your precious time as the moral crusader fighting a small tax penalty that doesn't affect the majority of Americans? You know why, because you are full of hot air.

 

[cloudy]

Both a specious and smarmy comment as usual.

You're both predictable and boring.

I was merely agreeing with you that if the President wants to make sure that everyone has decent healthcare, it's a sure sign that he's a tyrant.

There...see how fucking silly that sounds? That's what you said.

(btw: can you please use that thing up there in your head, you know...your brain...and come up with some new insult? For f's sake, talk about 'predictable.' )

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Ah! But all MDs and hospitals and meds and schemes arent equal. Obama and Pelosi and Hillary wont share ObamaCare with you; theyll use the good stuff. Youll get what Cubans get....2 aspirin and a sign-up clipboard to see the circuit-riding EMT when she comes to town next month.

 

[Scotsman69]

Cuban life expectancy

On the basis of the latest UN figures that google can produce, Cuba has marginally longer life expectancy than the USA. On a very much lower health spend per capita.

Oops, but I forgot... in your head the UN is probably just a world communist plot...

So that allows you to ignore any facts that don't massage your peculiar mindset.

Ah! But all MDs and hospitals and meds and schemes arent equal. Obama and Pelosi and Hillary wont share ObamaCare with you; theyll use the good stuff. Youll get what Cubans get....2 aspirin and a sign-up clipboard to see the circuit-riding EMT when she comes to town next month.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

On the basis of the latest UN figures that google can produce, Cuba has marginally longer life expectancy than the USA. On a very much lower health spend per capita.

Oops, but I forgot... in your head the UN is probably just a world communist plot...

So that allows you to ignore any facts that don't massage your peculiar mindset.

In Cuba they quietly cull and dispose of their local problems.

The facts are: Castro exports MDs to pay for gasoline and clothing/shoes for everyone. Or he uses his MDs to treat rich Canadians. You know how fucking stingy Canadians are!

 

[oggbashan]

Facts to inscribe on Amicus' dead fish

The following countries provide universal health care and better life expectancy than the restricted health care in the US and at a significantly lower cost per head:

Japan, Spain, Canada, Norway, Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Korea, France, Portugal, United Kingdom, Luxembourg, Denmark.

Og

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The niggaz and Mexicans hold us down.

 

[Scotsman69]

Yeah, fine

The reality is, you just can't cope with facts that contradict your irrational and unpleasant mindset. The last I heard, blacks and latinos are human beings too, and most of them in your country are citizens.

It's not worth trying to convince a serious racist. You'll never change, but fortunately popular opinion changes, in the USA as in every other country.

You remind me of the hardline unionists in Northern Ireland, who just get more vicious as realisation slowly dawns on them that very soon, NI Unionists of every hue will be a minority in their gerrymandered statelet. Even Paisley's DUP has recognised that.

You are an unpleasant hangover from the days of slavery. That passed in your land a long time ago. The Confederacy will never return, and you're scared of current reality.

Get on your Harley and roar into the sunset, where you belong. To resounding applause from most of the citizens of your great country.

The niggaz and Mexicans hold us down.

 

[Scotsman69]

You don't understand facts.

Most of them do not substantiate your beliefs.

Are you seriously challenging UN statistics?

In Cuba they quietly cull and dispose of their local problems.

The facts are: Castro exports MDs to pay for gasoline and clothing/shoes for everyone. Or he uses his MDs to treat rich Canadians. You know how fucking stingy Canadians are!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Most of them do not substantiate your beliefs.

Are you seriously challenging UN statistics?

Did God die and leave the UN thieves in charge?

 

[Scotsman69]

That's not an answer.

Because you don't have one. Pathetic racists never do.

Facts are chiels that winna ding.

Did God die and leave the UN thieves in charge?

 

[Pure]

reply re race

US infant mortality is poorer than most european countries with 'socialized medicine'. It's 6.3 per thousand. The best european cases are in the 3 or 4 range. See below.

Is this the 'fault' of black and hispanics? the black rate is more than 2 times the white, but excluding black people (since they're a small minority) only reduces the US rate to 5.6/1000 {corrected, still double the rate for Sweden, one of the best European cases.

taking a more typical case, Germany, with 4.3. the excess deaths in the US, the *really valuable* white babies, represent more than 4000 per year.
(i.e. assuming the US could reduce its rate to that of Germany).


the sort of special pleading is fairly sleezy, if not confused. first, the black people are americans. second, if the US is allowed to exclude its highest groups for infanty mortality, why should that be compared to countries NOT making the exclusion. put differently, for a fair comparison of the modified US rate, we'd have to modify the European figures. hence the gap remains.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

deaths per 1000

Japan 2.79
Sweden 2.75
Finland 3.7
Belgium 4.2
Germany 4.3
========

http://www.prb.org/Articles/2007/ColorDivideinInfantMortality.aspx

US overall. 6.3 deaths per 1000

Breakdown by race:

5.6 US non hispanic white
13.5 US non hispanic black
[...]

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

PURE

Youre excluding the prevalence of violence, lifestyle problems, drug-alcohol issues, etc. Niggaz and wetbacks shit in the punchbowl and you say, IT AINT SHIT ITS MERDE...FROM FRANCE!

 

[oggbashan]

Added reply re race

The UK has significant numbers of immigrants, and descendants of recent immigrants. [Almost everyone in the UK is descended from an immigrant because the UK was uninhabitable during the last Ice Age. My family has only been in the UK since 56BC]

However, that doesn't significantly affect our health statistics because everyone, recent immigrant or not, can access health care. Visitors from other EU countries receive reciprocal health care by carrying a (free) credit card size authority. If I visit an EU country I carry that card and am entitled to health treatment on the same basis as citizens of the country I'm visiting.

Og

 

[Scotsman69]

Sounds as though you are clinically insane...

...as well as being a self-proclaimed racist. No sensible person is posting here to try and convince you. One can't persuade solid crap with reason. But I for one persist because rational argument does influence the rational folks who are reading this.

And every time you type a word, everyone knows what (at best) a numpty you are.

You defeat your cause with every illogical word you type. Please, let's have more of them! You're helping Obama with every post.

PURE

Youre excluding the prevalence of violence, lifestyle problems, drug-alcohol issues, etc. Niggaz and wetbacks shit in the punchbowl and you say, IT AINT SHIT ITS MERDE...FROM FRANCE!

 

[Handley_Page]

I'd like to know why American citizenry is broken into "types", such as "Native Americans", "Hispanic" ditto, and then there's the political types; "the Jewish lobby", the "Catholics".

Why is it not all American?

 

[djserani]

I'd like to know why American citizenry is broken into "types", such as "Native Americans", "Hispanic" ditto, and then there's the political types; "the Jewish lobby", the "Catholics".

Why is it not all American?

Most thinking Americans have been wondering that for a very long time, HP.

 

[Seduc1ove]

I'd like to know why American citizenry is broken into "types", such as "Native Americans", "Hispanic" ditto, and then there's the political types; "the Jewish lobby", the "Catholics".

Why is it not all American?

Everyone says they want to keep their heritage or cultural identity which may be preventing us from finding a common one as Americans. Maybe we are just too diverse.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

...as well as being a self-proclaimed racist. No sensible person is posting here to try and convince you. One can't persuade solid crap with reason. But I for one persist because rational argument does influence the rational folks who are reading this.

And every time you type a word, everyone knows what (at best) a numpty you are.

You defeat your cause with every illogical word you type. Please, let's have more of them! You're helping Obama with every post.

In your dreams. Every day Obama motivates whites to redeem their balls and dignity.

 

[Scotsman69]

Please, PLEASE

Keep churning out your hateful shit.

You edge another waverer to humanity with your every sick illogical pontification. Now you've overtly (sorry, I know a hard word) excluded women from your imagined world of white supremacy. More, more, please. I love to see a racist shit digging his own metaphorical (oops, sorry, another hard word) grave.

In your dreams. Every day Obama motivates whites to redeem their balls and dignity.

 

[Scotsman69]

Oh come on JBRacist

Every post from you and Oxymoron gives Obama more support.

Give us more of your sick logic-defying shit. Pretty please?

In your dreams. Every day Obama motivates whites to redeem their balls and dignity.

 

[TE999]

(btw: can you please use that thing up there in your head, you know...your brain...and come up with some new insult? For f's sake, talk about 'predictable.' )

It's not an insult, it's a statement of fact.