Engineers.

[NotWise]

That's STES.

My bad. It's Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math.

 

[8letters]

I have a number of stories that feature engineers/engineering students. It was a stereotype that nicely fit with the story. I didn't describe my engineer character doing engineering "stuff".

I'd guess that the issue is that not many writers know engineers, so when they're developing the outline of a story they don't create characters that are like engineers.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I'm an engineer, a software engineer, I do stuff. I have stated that the hero??? was a software engineer in several stories.

I was almost a real engineer, put on the first day, I ran the engine off the tracks.

 

[jehoram]

Could it be that Lit writers are just reflecting the world as portrayed by television ... lots of lawyer and doctor roles, not so much for butchers, engineers, or other "exotic" vocations? The writers are using a world that readers are already familiar with.

The only engineer I can think of in a returning TV role is Howard Wolowitz of the Big Bang Theory. That show also has the only theoretical physicists I've ever seen on a TV series. Most of the other roles are for occupations that the average TV viewer is already familiar with, either on TV or in their regular lives. Same for Lit stories, mostly.

 

[KindofHere]

.............

 

[TxRad]

Lit is home to the fuck story. In-depth details about a person occupation rarely matter and when the details to technical jobs do come into play, they never hold (from what I've skimmed) the excitement of the Apollo 13 engineers solving their mission's problems. People are writing fuck stories, and you can change the word 'lawyer' to 'engineer' most of the time and nothing would change.

Yeah, but lawyers are ten times more likely to fuck you than engineers and not in the good ways.

Also, not everyone writes fuck stories. Some like a little plot and character development with their orgies.

 

[KindofHere]

Yeah, but lawyers are ten times more likely to fuck you than engineers and not in the good ways.

Also, not everyone writes fuck stories. Some like a little plot and character development with their orgies.

My use of the phrase fuck stories takes those into a account. Fuck story, sex story, erotic story, pornographic story, they all fall under the umbrella term (for me) of fuck story when they are on Lit (with or without a plot/character development/social commentary, etc.), outside of of Non-erotic, I suppose.

Edit: I don't use that term to denigrate or elevate anyone's writing.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Edit: I don't use that term to denigrate or elevate anyone's writing.

Oh, drat! I was so looking forward to some bare-knuckle denigration.

 

[txgent101]

I'm a chemical engineer. Hell, my SN is a chemical.

There are probably a lot of reasons why engineers aren't well represented in stories, or the author community. For characters, the job is generally not particularly glamorous, and a lot of people don't really understand what an engineer really does. If the details are not plot relevant, it's probably easier to show how smart a character is by referencing their doctorate degree in, say, theoretical math or particle physics, rather than by demonstrating their engineering knowledge of various piping standards.

There is a wide stereotype that engineers aren't particularly left-brained, and don't have appreciation for the fine arts, or great social skills with the opposite sex. That stereotype could, I suppose, reduce interest in stories about engineers. And if there is truth in that stereotype, it could result in a smaller pool of engineers creating content on this site. Personally, I've always enjoyed art, music, and literature, both creating and consuming, but my social skills were behind the curve when I was younger, and it took some time for me to figure out how to navigate dating.

As for characters who are engineers, where their location is relevant, there are a handful of decent stories out there. I have one story that was reasonably well received where the protagonist is an engineer. The story even concerns events that take place at his work.

Hey Poly -- I am also a Chem E. Your handle of polyacrylate reminds me that I once engineered in a plant that made Lucite. PMMA.

I haven't written much, but I do find it a challenge not to make my story a technical manual.

Here we are:
https://78.media.tumblr.com/cbc74baa519405226c5d2f2d481797ff/tumblr_pf9etv3fx21xwh1a4o1_400.jpg

Cheers....

 

[TxRad]

Some people take this shit way to seriously.

 

[SimonDoom]

My use of the phrase fuck stories takes those into a account. Fuck story, sex story, erotic story, pornographic story, they all fall under the umbrella term (for me) of fuck story when they are on Lit (with or without a plot/character development/social commentary, etc.), outside of of Non-erotic, I suppose.

Edit: I don't use that term to denigrate or elevate anyone's writing.

I got what you were saying and I tend to agree; this is the case for the majority of stories published here. Since the focus of story usually is on the "sex", broadly defined, the job doesn't matter as much. If the details of the job figure into the plot, that's different, but that's not true of at least 95% of the stories I've read on this site.

 

[Polyacrylate]

Hey Poly -- I am also a Chem E. Your handle of polyacrylate reminds me that I once engineered in a plant that made Lucite. PMMA.

I haven't written much, but I do find it a challenge not to make my story a technical manual.

Here we are:
https://78.media.tumblr.com/cbc74baa519405226c5d2f2d481797ff/tumblr_pf9etv3fx21xwh1a4o1_400.jpg

Cheers....

Lucite, eh? I've worked with methyl methacrylate some in my career, although my handling of it in solid form has been pretty limited. My present role doesn't deal with acrylates, more along the line of corrosion inhibition, but it's a field I have a significant amount of love and respect for.

Cheers!

 

[Polyacrylate]

Some people take this shit way to seriously.

What do you expect? We engineers are allegedly a humorless bunch, after all.

 

[TxRad]

What do you expect? We engineers are allegedly a humorless bunch, after all.

The engineers weren't the ones I was directing that comment at. I'm an engineer myself. Electrical.

 

[Polyacrylate]

[RANT]
Public policy now is to train all the engineers we can. Hence the emphasis on Science, Technology, Engineering and Science (STEM) in public schools.

I have an issue with the emphasis on training mass numbers of "engineers." Major corporations need more technically-competent employees, so they're pushing STEM. It bothers me because I was brought up and educated with the concept of the engineer as a competent professional with a set of ethics to go with a trusted position. What they want to train is a big supply of low-cost techs who will bring down the pay scale for the technically employed.

That ain't my only issue. I think the current emphasis on engineering/technical education endangers our whole culture: music, graphic arts, literature and philosophy (to name a few) used to be home for our greatest minds. They built western culture. They made us who we are. If the STEM proponents get everything they want, then in another generation our traditional culture could be lost, or (except popular music) at least endangered.

I'm feeling a lot of commonality with the American Indian people who struggle to maintain their culture. Our culture is in danger, too.
[/RANT]

Culture is my issue, hence my daughters where raised to art. It's probably not your issue.

I get what you're saying here, NotWise, and agree to some extent, but the issue regarding culture in particular seems to be more related to the role of secondary education.

Should college or University be looked at as vocational training? There's a nice argument to say no, but then the question becomes, given the cost of college, at least in the US, is it worth it to enter that level of debt for a degree that won't pay for itself? Do it make sense to have more art history majors than civil engineers (just for example)?

And there is the argument that the purpose of a liberal arts eductation is to create a well rounded citizen. And every time I debate this online, someone eventually mentions how their brother, or father, or whoever, runs an engineering firm/department/team where they have a non-technical education at best, and use it as proof that a STEM degree is not worth the time. In my experience, those persons are the exception to the rule. It's possible to get the on-the-job training to get into those types of roles without the degree, but it's getting consistently more difficult for that to happen - the competition is just too hard.

My real belief is that we need better appreciation for the arts instilled at a young age. It is something that would involve the whole of our society to make happen, but there is no reason why you can't have an engineer or mathematician with an appreciation for art or music.

That said, in lieu of art, I have a framed set of emergency venting calculations hanging next to my desk. I find true transcendence in that overall provess, and draw on it for inspiration.

Ok, I guess that's the end of my rant.

 

[Polyacrylate]

The engineers weren't the ones I was directing that comment at. I'm an engineer myself. Electrical.

I was intending to come off as joking in that post - sorry if it translated otherwise!

 

[Handley_Page]

Yeah, but lawyers are ten times more likely to fuck you than engineers and not in the good ways.

Also, not everyone writes fuck stories. Some like a little plot and character development with their orgies.

Ah - the real thing is stated.
Thank you

 

[8letters]

I get what you're saying here, NotWise, and agree to some extent, but the issue regarding culture in particular seems to be more related to the role of secondary education.

Should college or University be looked at as vocational training? There's a nice argument to say no, but then the question becomes, given the cost of college, at least in the US, is it worth it to enter that level of debt for a degree that won't pay for itself? Do it make sense to have more art history majors than civil engineers (just for example)?

Or conversely, the emphasis on STEM is a part of a big fucking scam by companies who hire technical employees so they can justify using H-2B's and most particularly L's to do their technical work for a fraction of what it would cost to pay for a US citizen to do it.

A friend got a degree in Physics. As he had a STEM degree, he should have had no problem getting a job, right? No. It would have taken a company a little bit of training to prepare him to be an engineer or some other technical position and no company was willing to do it. He ended up going back to school to learn how to operate high-end medical equipment.

 

[Polyacrylate]

Or conversely, the emphasis on STEM is a part of a big fucking scam by companies who hire technical employees so they can justify using H-2B's and most particularly L's to do their technical work for a fraction of what it would cost to pay for a US citizen to do it.

A friend got a degree in Physics. As he had a STEM degree, he should have had no problem getting a job, right? No. It would have taken a company a little bit of training to prepare him to be an engineer or some other technical position and no company was willing to do it. He ended up going back to school to learn how to operate high-end medical equipment.

As far as your friend's situation goes, that's rough, but fairly common. The traditional hard sciences (chemistry, physics, biology, etc) don't have great markets for undergraduate degrees. When I was in school (sorry) it was pretty common to see 3rd year chemistry majors switch to chemical engineering when they realized a good job in their field would take another 6-8 years of school.

In my experience, the jobs that are available to undergraduates are usually either highly competitive, or are dead-end affairs. Or both.

 

[TANSTAAFL58]

As far as your friend's situation goes, that's rough, but fairly common. The traditional hard sciences (chemistry, physics, biology, etc) don't have great markets for undergraduate degrees. When I was in school (sorry) it was pretty common to see 3rd year chemistry majors switch to chemical engineering when they realized a good job in their field would take another 6-8 years of school.

In my experience, the jobs that are available to undergraduates are usually either highly competitive, or are dead-end affairs. Or both.

We've bgot a PhD in metallurgy chasing work orders. Sad.

 

[NotWise]

As far as your friend's situation goes, that's rough, but fairly common. The traditional hard sciences (chemistry, physics, biology, etc) don't have great markets for undergraduate degrees. When I was in school (sorry) it was pretty common to see 3rd year chemistry majors switch to chemical engineering when they realized a good job in their field would take another 6-8 years of school.

In my experience, the jobs that are available to undergraduates are usually either highly competitive, or are dead-end affairs. Or both.

In any pure science, you're likely to have a tough time getting a job with just a bachelor's degree. That's true even in Geology, which is quite commercial. My original alma mater steered students out of pure sciences and into the corresponding field of engineering, partly by making the pure science degree very difficult to get.

Advanced degrees are good to have, even in engineering, and a Master's may take only a year and a half beyond the Bachelors. I work with a company that doesn't hire Civils without advanced degrees, and when (years ago) I was contracted to a national lab, my contact there told me that his janitor had a Master's degree. The janitor was trying to make contacts, but really the lab only hired PhDs.

As far as STEM is concerned, I don't really understand that movement as anything but a way to lower labor costs for industries that need more engineers. It isn't like they're hiring all the engineers that are graduating now, so lower costs are the only reason I see for them to need more.

BUT, other's know more than I do. I discussed the problem briefly with my very influential brother-in-law and he emphatically supported earlier and bigger technical programs in schools. And he (aside from being an incredible engineer) is also a classical musician.

I had to break off the conversation at that point. I was on the board of a Performing Arts mid/high school, and I felt like I could see a time coming when graphic arts, literature, and traditional dance and music -- all very important to me -- would be foreign to most students. But I think that as long as kids are given early education in those things, when they get to high school and college they'll have a basis for picking they're direction. Maybe it won't all be lost.

 

[Polyacrylate]

We've bgot a PhD in metallurgy chasing work orders. Sad.

You have my sympathies. FWIW, the metallurgists I've worked with have largely been involved with 653 compliance which was largely chasing work orders, although there was a pretty cool peroxide-induced corrosion study I worked on with one of them. He described it as the exception to the rule.

 

[R. Richard]

I am unaware of a current emphasis on STEM. I have a degree in mathematics. At my university, there were numerous 'math' course that were barred, for credit, to math majors. I am unaware of courses in other studies that were barred to majors in the study. I was never able to pass English, in either high school or college (I cheated.) I was forced to take curses such as English, Philosophy, History, German language, Literature, etc. I have never found a use for any of the last courses.
If English is a language, what is the official grammar document?
If you studied Philosophy, what is value of the last term of a convergent geometric series (Hercules vs turtle.)?
Columbus discovered the new world. (What about Thorfinn Karlsefni?)
One of the very few words that I use from German is Scheisskopf!
Of course I enjoyed 'The Merchant of Venice,' where the merchant defrauded a Jew. I have never understood a single line of poetry and I will, unforced or untricked, never again read another line.
The philosophy of liberal arts majors seems to be summed up in the question, "Would you like fries with that?"

[RANT]
Public policy now is to train all the engineers we can. Hence the emphasis on Science, Technology, Engineering and Science (STEM) in public schools.

I have an issue with the emphasis on training mass numbers of "engineers." Major corporations need more technically-competent employees, so they're pushing STEM. It bothers me because I was brought up and educated with the concept of the engineer as a competent professional with a set of ethics to go with a trusted position. What they want to train is a big supply of low-cost techs who will bring down the pay scale for the technically employed.

That ain't my only issue. I think the current emphasis on engineering/technical education endangers our whole culture: music, graphic arts, literature and philosophy (to name a few) used to be home for our greatest minds. They built western culture. They made us who we are. If the STEM proponents get everything they want, then in another generation our traditional culture could be lost, or (except popular music) at least endangered.

I'm feeling a lot of commonality with the American Indian people who struggle to maintain their culture. Our culture is in danger, too.
[/RANT]

Culture is my issue, hence my daughters where raised to art. It's probably not your issue.

 

[R. Richard]

I have written several books (The Beach Murders, The Beach Dealers, The Beach Slaves), where the protagonist is a real-time computer programmer. He deals with sexual assault, the smuggling of drugs, incest, murder, enslavement, porn video, insanity and government operations. In each of the stories, the protagonist uses his engineering skill (simply explained) to not only survive, but prosper.

In RTP, a real-time computer programmer uses his skills (simply explained) to solve business problems, spy problems, crime problems and even problems with advanced aliens.

Just to enlighten me, how would a liberal arts guys solve the same problems? I suspect that I know the answer. I got a major computer manufacturer to send in the guy who wrote the manual to tell me how a claimed feature worked. The punk refused to tell me. I wanted to beat the answer out of him. I was told that he didn't know the answer. I told them that I didn't give a damn (I am not a nice person.) I finally got the answer from, you guessed it, a computer programmer.

 

[NotWise]

We've bgot a PhD in metallurgy chasing work orders. Sad.

I've never known what it would be like to work as an Engineer in a big corporate structure. Life is different there, I guess. Rather Dilbert-like. I don't think that's the sort of Engineer that the OP's wife was thinking about.

Years ago (as many of my memories go) an engineer with the US Army Corp of Engineers became a celebrity in New Orleans. The Mississippi River flow was historically low and salt water from the gulf was moving up-river toward the City's water supply intake. He built a plan and mobilized machinery. He built a high spot in the river bed that kept salt water from moving up to New Orleans, and he was a hero.

Later than that, we drilled some wells in the Texas Panhandle and estimated their potential production. The Engineer spec'd a huge pump and a super-charged V-12 diesel to run it.

He was giddy when I talked to him. When that engine powered up it sounded like a jet taking off (his words). The well proved to be the biggest producer in the history of the Panhandle, and possibly the biggest producer anywhere in the High Plains aquifer.

Why wouldn't you make these people the character in your story? Is there something about doing things and succeeding that is somehow not sexy?