Editing Question

[AsylumSeeker]

Writing a story for the upcoming contest, seeking other opinions.

In the following paragraph a guy is thinking about some questions. Does this read okay? Is it technically sound? Any suggestions? Thanks.

He'd had several girlfriends in the years since, but nothing serious. When one casual relationship ended, he'd ask himself, <i>So where do I find my next girlfriend?</i> But now, fast approaching thirty, that question was changing from, <i>Where do I find my next girlfriend?</i> to <i>Where do I find myself a wife?</i>

Apparently the italic-thing doesn't work, but imagine the marked lines as being italicized.

 

[talismania]

The mechanics of your passage are fine. Only one thing made me pause. For me, "Where do I find my next girlfriend?" doesn't sound quite right. I keep wanting it to read "Where do I find another girlfriend?" as if girlfriends have been interchangeable instead of neatly serial. That's just picking nits, of course, and maybe that is how some guys think about girlfriends (next as opposed to another). Just tossing my thought on the table in case you agree.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

The mechanics of your passage are fine. Only one thing made me pause. For me, "Where do I find my next girlfriend?" doesn't sound quite right. I keep wanting it to read "Where do I find another girlfriend?" as if girlfriends have been interchangeable instead of neatly serial. That's just picking nits, of course, and maybe that is how some guys think about girlfriends (next as opposed to another). Just tossing my thought on the table in case you agree.

Thanks for tossing. Somehow that doesn't sound right, lol. But Thanks regardless.

 

[sr71plt]

The "next girlfriend" phrase reads fine to me.

But, technically, you have "the question" fast approaching thirty. A nearly thirty-year-old question. Misplaced modifier.

Another minior problem is having "nothing serious" modifying "girlfriends." It's relationships that weren't serious, not the girlfriends.

to get italics here (if you don't want to just highlight and click on the buttons given above), you use brackets. You use different mechanisms for the forum that you use for the story file submissions.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Thanks for tossing. Somehow that doesn't sound right, lol. But Thanks regardless.

I was being cute. Appreciated your input, will incorporate. Many thanks, maybe even a man-hug (don't get too excited, I said maybe, lol)

 

[AsylumSeeker]

The "next girlfriend" phrase reads fine to me.

But, technically, you have "the question" fast approaching thirty. A nearly thirty-year-old question. Misplaced modifier.

Another minior problem is having "nothing serious" modifying "girlfriends." It's relationships that weren't serious, not the girlfriends.

to get italics here (if you don't want to just highlight and click on the buttons given above), you use brackets. You use different mechanisms for the forum that you use for the story file submissions.

Thanls much for chiming in, SR, I am respectful of your opinion and knowledge/experience. But I am unable to understand what you are sharing. An example would be appreciated.

 

[sr71plt]

Thanls much for chiming in, SR, I am respectful of your opinion and knowledge/experience. But I am unable to understand what you are sharing. An example would be appreciated.

You've got phrases modifying the wrong noun. You have "girlfriends" being nothing serious rather than his relationship with the girlfriends being nothing serious.

And you have "the question" approaching thirty, when it should be "he" (which you omit) approaching thirty.

Can't put it much more simply than that. It needs to be rewritten with the proper noun being modified by the action in the following phrase.

Rendered properly, this would be one way it could read:

He'd had several girlfriends in the years since, but no serious relationships. When one casual relationship ended, he'd ask himself, So where do I find my next girlfriend? But now, as he was quickly approaching thirty, that question was changing from, Where do I find my next girlfriend? to Where do I find myself a wife?

If you don't understand how to get italics from what I wrote, I'm not sure how to more clearly explain it. But I'd use double quotation marks where you are using italics anyway.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

You've got phrases modifying the wrong noun. You have "girlfriends" being nothing serious rather than his relationship with the girlfriends being nothing serious.

And you have "the question" approaching thirty, when it should be "he" (which you omit) approaching thirty.

Can't put it much more simply than that. It needs to be rewritten with the proper noun being modified by the action in the following phrase.

Rendered properly, this would be one way it could read:

He'd had several girlfriends in the years since, but no serious relationships. When one casual relationship ended, he'd ask himself, So where do I find my next girlfriend? But now, as he was quickly approaching thirty, that question was changing from, Where do I find my next girlfriend? to Where do I find myself a wife?

If you don't understand how to get italics from what I wrote, I'm not sure how to more clearly explain it. But I'd use double quotation marks where you are using italics anyway.

Okay, thanks, may do that.

 

[bronzeage]

Writing a story for the upcoming contest, seeking other opinions.

In the following paragraph a guy is thinking about some questions. Does this read okay? Is it technically sound? Any suggestions? Thanks.

He'd had several girlfriends in the years since, but nothing serious. When one casual relationship ended, he'd ask himself, <i>So where do I find my next girlfriend?</i> But now, fast approaching thirty, that question was changing from, <i>Where do I find my next girlfriend?</i> to <i>Where do I find myself a wife?</i>

Apparently the italic-thing doesn't work, but imagine the marked lines as being italicized.

In the first sentence, "He'd had...", what is the contracted word?

 

[CopperSkink]

I would also use double-quotes opposed to italics. I use italics for stress and quotes for any isolated speech.

One thing that bothered me was the repeated use of "he'd", and they mean two different things, those being "he had" and "he would". I refer back to my kindergarten days (or a few years later perhaps; grade school was at least eight minutes ago for me) where I was taught never to begin two paragraphs with the same word. My suggestion is to have "He'd had" in one location and "he would ask" in the second. Not for clarity; the grammar reads fine; but because more variation and more eloquence is more money in the bank.

 

[sr71plt]

In the first sentence, "He'd had...", what is the contracted word?

"had." It's past perfect tense ("he had had"). Most times it can be reduced to simple past, but I think it's correct as written here.

 

[sr71plt]

One thing that bothered me was the repeated use of "he'd", and they mean two different things, those being "he had" and "he would". I refer back to my kindergarten days (or a few years later perhaps; grade school was at least eight minutes ago for me) where I was taught never to begin two paragraphs with the same word.

That's too restrictive a "rule" for commercial fiction.

 

[CopperSkink]

Agreed, but it's effective for making sure every first-person novel doesn't have "I went," "I woke up," "I saw," and "I realized" everywhere you look.

Anyways I think the guideline was more for five paragraph essays rather than hundred-thousand word short stories.

 

[sr71plt]

Agreed, but it's effective for making sure every first-person novel doesn't have "I went," "I woke up," "I saw," and "I realized" everywhere you look.

Anyways I think the guideline was more for five paragraph essays rather than hundred-thousand word short stories.

Two succeeding paragraphs and "everywhere you look" aren't the same thing. That's what's wrong about what is taught in school. There's nothing subtle about it. It's too hard edged for commercial publishing.

 

[bronzeage]

"had." It's past perfect tense ("he had had"). Most times it can be reduced to simple past, but I think it's correct as written here.

Is there a difference between "He had had" and "He had"?

 

[sr71plt]

Is there a difference between "He had had" and "He had"?

Yes. "He had had" ("He'd had") is past perfect tense. "He had" is simple past tense. If there wasn't a difference, two different tenses woudn't still exist. They do.

Although there's a phrase in the sentence given here that makes the past perfect tense a little less necessary (but still the more correct rendering)--"in the past"--if it were a simpler sentence, the distinction would be necessary.

"He had girlfriends" is different in meaning from "He'd had girlfriends." In the simple past, he might still have girlfriends continuing to the present. In the past perfect, a cutoff in the past of having them is signaled--which is where the idea is headed with the rest of the paragraph.

Again, even though one tense is used more than the other (and prefered, when possible, to prevent readers getting tongue tied), there wouldn't be the two different tenses if there was no difference in when to use them.

 

[driphoney]

You've got phrases modifying the wrong noun. You have "girlfriends" being nothing serious rather than his relationship with the girlfriends being nothing serious.

And you have "the question" approaching thirty, when it should be "he" (which you omit) approaching thirty.

Can't put it much more simply than that. It needs to be rewritten with the proper noun being modified by the action in the following phrase.

Rendered properly, this would be one way it could read:

He'd had several girlfriends in the years since, but no serious relationships. When one casual relationship ended, he'd ask himself, So where do I find my next girlfriend? But now, as he was quickly approaching thirty, that question was changing from, Where do I find my next girlfriend? to Where do I find myself a wife?

If you don't understand how to get italics from what I wrote, I'm not sure how to more clearly explain it. But I'd use double quotation marks where you are using italics anyway.

I'm a little embarrassed that I had trouble putting the proper grammar together until you spelled it out, and this was a nice refresher lesson.

But I'm curious why his originally written piece, since it was clear to the reader (at least me) what was meant by the passage, isn't acceptable as a casual fiction? He is writing in third person, true, so it's not the "voice" of the character, but as written, it gives me a tone--a feel--for the character/story.

My question is sincere as I ponder acceptable narrative. My own style (if you can call it that! ) is casual, so it's close to home for me. This is not just another "can I trip sr up" post. (Those get old, by the way.)

 

[sr71plt]

I'm a little embarrassed that I had trouble putting the proper grammar together until you spelled it out, and this was a nice refresher lesson.

But I'm curious why his originally written piece, since it was clear to the reader (at least me) what was meant by the passage, isn't acceptable as a casual fiction? He is writing in third person, true, so it's not the "voice" of the character, but as written, it gives me a tone--a feel--for the character/story.

My question is sincere as I ponder acceptable narrative. My own style (if you can call it that! ) is casual, so it's close to home for me. This is not just another "can I trip sr up" post. (Those get old, by the way.)

Any time you have a phrase modifying the wrong noun, you run the risk of sending readers off the rails. Since publishers are more interested in the reader (the buyer) than the writer, they tend to be real sticklers about anything that might throw the reader out of the flow.

Given the choice of getting it right--at least in the narrative--and risking the reader giving a howl at the multiple interesting possibilities of misplaced modifiers like saying the question is thirty years old (quite a mild one--there can be real howlers on this), why not just do it right?

(As far as me commenting on something like this. I'd comment on it if I was the story's editor or like here, when, the question was asked whether anything was wrong with this--but if I saw it in a posted story, I'm sure I'd just toss it aside and keep reading. I certainly wouldn't put a comment on the story, "I stopped reading and gave you a 1 because you misplaced a modifer phrase in the fourth paragraph.")

 

[CopperSkink]

What's clear to some isn't always clear to others, and we as writers should at least better ourselves to be as close as we can get to perfect.

Another "out of all my girlfriends, none of them were ever serious" example is the either/or//yes-or-no question connundrum. Write "'Are you going shopping at the mall or the outlet today?' 'The outlet, of course.'"
It reads fine, person may not trip over it, and one person talking to another and you wouldn't even ask. It is, however, horribly wrong. The question asked wasn't a choice between the two, rather affirmation whether the accused was going shopping or not.
The entire meaning of "are you doing this or that" is completely thrown off by the addition of the comma in the middle, as in "are you doing this, or that?" One's your "yes or no" question, the latter a leading question (assuming the accused is in fact doing at least one) clarifying which of the two activities s/he has chosen.

 

[driphoney]

Any time you have a phrase modifying the wrong noun, you run the risk of sending readers off the rails. Since publishers are more interested in the reader (the buyer) than the writer, they tend to be real sticklers about anything that might throw the reader out of the flow.

Given the choice of getting it right--at least in the narrative--and risking the reader giving a howl at the multiple interesting possibilities of misplaced modifiers like saying the question is thirty years old (quite a mild one--there can be real howlers on this), why not just do it right?

(As far as me commenting on something like this. I'd comment on it if I was the story's editor or like here, when, the question was asked whether anything was wrong with this--but if I saw it in a posted story, I'm sure I'd just toss it aside and keep reading. I certainly wouldn't put a comment on the story, "I stopped reading and gave you a 1 because you misplaced a modifer phrase in the fourth paragraph.")

This is clear.

I can see where a publisher is looking for clarity and enjoyment for the reader. The professional writer is producing a product.

I guess I didn't understand why it would be a problem since, in this case, the meaning appeared to me to be perfectly understandable. In a different sentence, I can see where it would be confusing and need to be clarified. Since the narrator is giving tone to the piece by his casual use of language it raised the question with me.

What's clear to some isn't always clear to others, and we as writers should at least better ourselves to be as close as we can get to perfect.

Another "out of all my girlfriends, none of them were ever serious" example is the either/or//yes-or-no question connundrum. Write "'Are you going shopping at the mall or the outlet today?' 'The outlet, of course.'"
It reads fine, person may not trip over it, and one person talking to another and you wouldn't even ask. It is, however, horribly wrong. The question asked wasn't a choice between the two, rather affirmation whether the accused was going shopping or not.
The entire meaning of "are you doing this or that" is completely thrown off by the addition of the comma in the middle, as in "are you doing this, or that?" One's your "yes or no" question, the latter a leading question (assuming the accused is in fact doing at least one) clarifying which of the two activities s/he has chosen.

This is unclear.

I do agree that what is clear to some truly isn't clear to others. I'm an "others" in regard to most of your post.

Close to perfect is a high bar. Even though AS is coming with a question that seems basic, he writes a good story, and he knows more than might be indicated by some of his posts here. He didn't get picked up to be e-published on a fluke. (Love ya AS, even when you get a little crazy around here! ) I don't think anyone here is here because they want to remain bad writers, or accept bad writing.

Clarity is important, but this isn't essay writing. Perfect, sterile writing has its place (somewhere, probably on my professor's desk this fall!) but fiction writing is as much art as grammar and finding that narrow line is the struggle at times--for some of us at least. My question had to do with the fact that even though it was grammatically flawed the writing appeared to highlight the tone of the piece.

The argument could be made that excellent creative writing always fits into the rules of grammar, particularly in the narrative. I bet classic writer after classic writer could be trotted out to prove the point, and I'd have to humbly tuck my chin and go have a good thinking session in my room . . . . I was probably subconsciously hoping to be justified in my own casual writing stye.

 

[CopperSkink]

Perfection doesn't necessarily have to do with strict rule-following. Rules change too often or there are too many different authorities on rules with too many opposing views. What we can do is learn what we can in the time we have. As you said, Drip, clear in one instance may not have been as clear in another instance. It's because of those others that we strive to be clear all the time such that we're not accidentally not getting our point across correctly to our entire audience (or as much as a writer can hope for).

 

[Tx Tall Tales]

Any time you have a phrase modifying the wrong noun, you run the risk of sending readers off the rails. Since publishers are more interested in the reader (the buyer) than the writer, they tend to be real sticklers about anything that might throw the reader out of the flow.

sr71plt is dead on. It's such a common problem, which I'm guilty of on more than one occasion. When trying to clean up a story, making the sentences more succinct, shorter, more directed - this is a great opportunity to break up a confusing sentence into two clearer ones. Long sentences often are unclear as to what a particular phrase is modifying. Very common essay problem.

Again, nothing like the multitudinous spelling errors, grammar errors, change in tense and even view that we see so commonly, but it's worth noting and correcting, if you care about your writing.

On the other hand, getting picky about grammar perfection in a forum post is a little out of line. How many of us actually carefully self-edit these things anyway? Not me.

 

[deisatru]

Yes. "He had had" ("He'd had") is past perfect tense. "He had" is simple past tense. If there wasn't a difference, two different tenses woudn't still exist. They do.

Although there's a phrase in the sentence given here that makes the past perfect tense a little less necessary (but still the more correct rendering)--"in the past"--if it were a simpler sentence, the distinction would be necessary.

I would question this...

For mundane readers not overly concerned about this type of editing but rather consuming it, would you rather read 'he had' 'he'd had' or 'he had had'?

I personally believe the 'he had had' could interrupt the story flow and make the reader have to reread what was written to understand it. (I mean this in most any story not the one this post started off with)

How could we and should we make a new 'rule' to make this easier on the reader?

 

[Thomas Drablézien]

Another angle on this is in the mechanics of reading.

I tend to read by recognising word groups and extrapolating meaning, rather than reading 'word for word.' - It's a dyslectic thing I think! - It is a fast way of reading but inaccurate and it leads to two effects:

1. I have a much higher tolerance to technical errors in what I am reading than quite a few other people. It seems that my brain has a good ability to convert written words into images whilst overlooking grammatical inconsistencies. I only wish the converse was equally true which brings me to:

2. I find it exceedingly hard work to tidy-up and correct my own writings to bring them to a state where they are acceptable to the majority readers.

Thank god for editors!

Tom

 

[CopperSkink]

I'm going to be mean, but it's your fault for not knowing how to read rather than the author's/editor's for writing properly. The past perfect tense will occur here and there, even in the case of "he had had." I'm not opposed to contracting the phrase where possible, but on occasion I tend to use a character that doesn't do that as a rule.

I write for people that can read, and the only complaint I've gotten from my writing was from someone who has only basic understanding of written English and whose stories are stroke-only and unedited.