Editing is hard work

[BigTexan]

I've never had trouble editing my own stories. However, I have taken on the project of editing a couple of other people's stories recently and let me tell you, it's hard work.

I wouldn't have thought it was so hard until I did it.

So if you are lucky enough to have a friend who edits your stories for you; you need to take the time to thank them with all your heart.

And if you don't think it is hard work, volunteer to edit someone's story. Now don't go cheep and just volunteer for someone like WSO, WH, or KM either, pick someone who needs an editor. You'll see it's no easy picknick.

The other thing you see, is that most of what you find wrong with their writing applies to you as well. Editing will make you a better writer. But it isn't easy.

BigTexan

 

[PaulX35]

I'm with you

Big Man,

I cherish everyone who previews and edits my writings; I can't do without them.
I always return the offer, knowing I may never be the help they were to me, but it's the effort that counts.

And you're right: reading other people's work points you at your own mistakes and imperfections. In that respect it improves your own work as well.

Paul

 

[KillerMuffin]

B.T., Editing for WS was the hardest edit I've ever done. It's harder to edit the good ones than the bad ones. The bad ones, while time consuming, are easy because they don't require as much thought. Errors are obvious.

Editing is, in my humble opinion, the absolute best way to learn to write a good story.

 

[PaulX35]

... It's harder to edit the good ones than the bad ones. The bad ones, while time consuming, are easy because they don't require as much thought. Errors are obvious.

KM,

Good point! While the editing of beginners is about the basics, editing good work requires a lot more skills. Furthermore, other things come into play, I think. Editing at a certain level maybe also requires a feel to exist between the editor and the edited?

Any opinions here?

Paul

 

[wildsweetone]

Ahh the Editing world... Yes it's hard work at times, it's also very time consuming.

The wonderful part is that a small amount of editing for another author can help both them and yourself. If both parties respect each other and understand nobody is perfect, then both people learn so much more.

BigTexan, I may not need so much help with typos, but I do need help with my storylines and tieing up of loose ends on things I write. When I write I tend to go so fast and I assume I've already done what needs to be done. All my work needs editing and some rewriting, all of it. If we care about what we write, then none of us is ever going to produce perfection the first time around.

I don't know if other Editors feel like this, but I edit other people's writing so much better than I can edit my own. I think it's because I don't tend to leave my writing for long enough so I can clearly see its flaws.

I will give you one piece of advice, beware how much editing you take on. You can only do so much and because you're good at it you are likely to be swamped frequently. Make sure you are able to say 'sorry I can't squeeze your editing in this week', nobody will take offence. You will burn out otherwise, and it happens before you realise it.

To be thanked for ones editorial work is a beautiful reward and for me, that in itself is reward enough.

 

[BigTexan]

It's harder to edit the good ones than the bad ones. The bad ones, while time consuming, are easy because they don't require as much thought. Errors are obvious.

I guess I hadn't really thought of it that way. I look at the really good writers here and think, "Wow, there are so few errors there." It's like watching professional Ice Skating. They make it look so easy, but when I do it myself, I fall on my butt.

I think editing helps me become a better writer because if forces me to step back and think about the act of writing. It forces me to analyze why a sentence is awkward. I mean, I can't just say "This sentence is awkward." That isn't much help. I have to think about why it is awkward and formulate a way of expressing it that a). Is clear and precise enough to let the writer correct it, and b). is phrased so that the writer doesn't immediatly write off my editing.

It is this second one that I think editing for "good" writers would be easier to do. Good writers, in my experience, have been around the block long enough to understand that critisism can be constructive and are usually thick skinned enough to not get unreasonably defensive.

I may be full of shit with that. But it's the feeling I get from here and from the SF&F writing groups I belong to.

BigTexan

 

[wildsweetone]

no matter how tough or critical we are of another's work it always helps to show respect to each other.

online editing sucks because we can't temper our words with tone or facial expressions.

having said that, it only takes one sentence to let our authors know and understand that our opinions on their work are simply that... 'our opinions', and our authors are still free to ignore our opinions and to seek others thoughts.

no matter our own level of achievements, it costs nothing to show respect.

 

[BigTexan]

WSO,

What you said is right, however, I have found that sometimes just stating that it is my opinion at the start is not enough.

About showing respect. I never mean to do anything else. But to be human is to err, and there are times when I fall short of showing enough respect to satisfy.

I guess I just felt that experience writers have taken enough critisism that, for the most part, they have learned to do so gracefully. Some inexperienced writers have not learned this yet and are not as thick skinned per se'

BigTexan

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I've never edited. I don't even have a clear idea of what an editor does, outside of proofreaing.
If you're editing and you don't like the way a sentence is written, can you just change it? Can you change the way someone paragraphs?

What do you do is you get one of those totally hopeless pieces of crap and you have to edit it and there's not even anything salvageable in it?

What do you do is someone who can't write at all just dumps this pile of junk in your lap and says, "Fix it"?

Where do you learn how to edit?

---dr.M.

 

[wildsweetone]

i understand what you mean.

i'm not sure if i've become thick skinned, but i have learned enough to know that people who critique my work are not critiquing 'me' personally. perhaps that's where the experience comes in.

 

[wildsweetone]

I've never edited. I don't even have a clear idea of what an editor does, outside of proofreaing.
If you're editing and you don't like the way a sentence is written, can you just change it? Can you change the way someone paragraphs?

What do you do is you get one of those totally hopeless pieces of crap and you have to edit it and there's not even anything salvageable in it?

What do you do is someone who can't write at all just dumps this pile of junk in your lap and says, "Fix it"?

Where do you learn how to edit?

---dr.M.

editing/proofreading

as an Editor, I give feedback on what has been given to me to read. my feedback consists of picking up typos/spelling errors, picking up grammar that i feel is incorrect, and giving a general opinion on the story.

the best place to learn is to give feedback in the Story Feedback Forum. the second best place appears to be in the Story Discussion Circle because not only can you give your own feedback but you can see the feedback others give on the same story.

the third best place is to offer to be an Editor for one or two specific Authors.

and it all appears to begin with you reading something, then writing what you 'feel' wasn't quite right about the story, and if you can, back up the feeling with 'why' and/or what can be done to improve it.

if a story arrives on your lap and it's impossible to read, then choose ONE thing that occurs as a problem throughout the story and suggest to the author different ways of trying to improve on that ONE thing.

the reason for choosing 'one' is because a) an author is not always capable of learning and getting past more than one problem at a time. and b) that clears the 'problem' from your lap until next time. doing it in managable chunks is easier and less swamping.

 

[BigTexan]

I've never edited. I don't even have a clear idea of what an editor does, outside of proofreaing.
If you're editing and you don't like the way a sentence is written, can you just change it? Can you change the way someone paragraphs?

What do you do is you get one of those totally hopeless pieces of crap and you have to edit it and there's not even anything salvageable in it?

What do you do is someone who can't write at all just dumps this pile of junk in your lap and says, "Fix it"?

Where do you learn how to edit?

---dr.M.

When I edit, I do more than just proofread. I personally don't like correcting spelling so about the third or fouth mis-spelled word I send it back and ask them to use a spell checker before I edit it.

Can I change a paragraph? NO! I can suggest the author change it and hopefully provide some insight into why it, in my opinion, needs changed, but I won't re-write a story for someone. That isn't what an editor is for.

If the story is a piece of crap and is hopeless, then I wouldn't send it back, unedited and suggest, respectfully, that they find another editor. Why? Because what may be a hopeless piece of crap to me may be a work of art to someone else. Who am I to judge? All I can do is offer my opinion. If my opinion won't help that person, then why give it to them?

And if "someone who can't write at all just dumps this pile of junk in your lap and says, 'Fix it'?" then I'll just respectfully send it back to them and say "I'm sorry, I can't, but thanks for asking."

And finally, Like so many other things in life, you learn to edit mostly by doing it. I had a wonderful editor (WildSweetOne) edit one of my stories. From her I learned what editing really was, and I chose to try and pass some of that along.

Editing, to me, isn't all that different than offering feedback except that you are much more thorough and take a lot more time doing it. Either way, the intent is to help the writer learn to be a better writer. In one case you are dealing with a story that is already published, in the other you are working to help them improve a story before publishing.

Or at least this is my opinion.
BigTexan

 

[Guest]

be specific

Great thread, as usual, BT!

One thing that I think is essential to an effective editor/writer relationship is specificity. Do I want a "gut" (or cock) reaction? Am I looking for mechanics corrections, or am I looking for help in the area of pacing and character development? Who is the targeted audience? (knowing the category sometimes helps)

Several folks here at lit have been very gracious to edit a couple of my stories... WSO and SirHugs are two.

My advice is be respectful of the editors' time is and be very specific. Then everyone is happier....

For me, when I send a first draft out I am looking for whether the story "works". Then, I am looking for any major gaps or errors in the story line... "I didn't believe so-and-so's reaction", "What happened to the glass of wine she was holding?"...

After I rework with that feedback, I get down to the nitty gritty. And anyone willing to walk down that road with me is a very wonderful person! I am thankful for the wonderful ones here.

b

 

[PaulX35]

So important

i understand what you mean.

i'm not sure if i've become thick skinned, but i have learned enough to know that people who critique my work are not critiquing 'me' personally. perhaps that's where the experience comes in.

WSW,

You hit the nail on the head for me here. People always look at their writing as their "babies", meaning they are easily inclined to become defensive of their own work. Not good, as most of all it makes you forget someone who is editing your work is out to help you. To help you refocus your own creative thoughts, to offer you a perspective unhampered by the writing process you've been in, to show you things could be explained in ways you had never considered or thought about, to point at loose ends and details you had forgotten about. And all this may hurt a little when you first read it, but editors and proof-readers are out to help you, and that's how I look at them. With gratitude and respect.

Paul

 

[Wicked-N-Erotic]

I haven't edited for anyone other than a friend of mine and myself (and I always miss something). It is a different ball game. I want to take this thread as way to thank you for editing my last story for me.
Wicked

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Do all of you people use editors all the time?

 

[Madame Manga]

Do all of you people use editors all the time?

On short pieces, often not. I can write them in a day or two and revise them in a week. Unfortunately, most of the time I write long pieces. Those absolutely require another few pairs of eyes, IMO. Editors have saved my butt more times than I can count!

It is just about impossible to see a novel you have written through fresh and unbiased eyes, no matter how long you have set it aside. You have spent too much time with it and you know where all the seams are. Someone else has to tell you where they show.

I never depend on editors for grammar and spelling corrections, BTW. I consider those my responsibility, so I don't let a story out of my hands before I have gone over it several times. Of course, editors still spot silly errors of mine and doubtless always will. ;-)And once in a while someone will point out a strange sentence construction, since I am prone to compound-complex obscurities. What I need in an editor is someone who will pick apart characters and their motivations, plot logic, POV, storytelling issues and so on. The deeper they can slice, the better.

MM

 

[wildsweetone]

Do all of you people use editors all the time?

good question. the last couple of stories i posted on Lit i have had editors. - partly because i couldn't believe what i'd written. lol

one of the stories i am currently writing i need a friend handy... it is a toughy for me and will be the first story that i finish and put aside for a time before going back to it. i expect to be able to look at it from a distance at that point and i also expect to know enough to be able to change or rewrite what i need to do by myself.

i think that's a good measure of how much i have learned through giving explicit feedback to other authors.

 

[Wicked-N-Erotic]

I've only used an editor twice, mostly I just use my word processor and spell checker and rely on tips i've gotten on the boards.
Wicked

 

[KillerMuffin]

I don't use an editor here, myself. I barely even spellcheck, I just look for red lines. I'm bad.

I don't touch a word of the text, even to correct the slightest spelling or punctuation error. I make notes in blue throughout the text. Rather like a teacher with a red pen. Only I don't like red, too hard to read.

Then, at the end, I give a summation of my thoughts on the piece. I generally add about one and a half times what's written in a story.


There are people who don't like my critiques. I had one guy get upset and threaten all manner of bodily injury over it. He was later rejected by the publisher he was positive would purchase the story and apologized to me. Apparently we said the same thing to him.

But, whatever. I don't edit anymore, not person to person because it just takes too long.

 

[Weird Harold]

If you're editing and you don't like the way a sentence is written, can you just change it? Can you change the way someone paragraphs?

I no longer edit, other than an occasional work for someone who is having problems, and then it's just a cursory edit.

If I do edit something, I prefer that it be in MS Word format because I am most comfortable with it's reviewing tools. WordPerfect does have good reviewing tools, but I use it so seldom I'm not comfortable with using them.

With the reviewing tools, I can make extensive comments on the story, explain changes made, show alternatives to the changes suggested, highlight problem areas, and show both the new and old text in a way that lets the author chose which to accept. With decent reviewing tools, the choice of whether to accept or reject any change or comment lies totaly with the client author.

What do you do is you get one of those totally hopeless pieces of crap and you have to edit it and there's not even anything salvageable in it?

When I find myself making the same correction repeatedly, I generally add a comment that I seem to have found most of the recurring problems and stopped editing at that point. Once the author has corrected those recurrent problem they can send it back for further editing. If there is truly nothing worth saving, I explain why I think that.

What do you do is someone who can't write at all just dumps this pile of junk in your lap and says, "Fix it"?

It depends on whether I'm in a mood to be a co-author or just an editor. I told several clients -- in the editorial comments -- that I don't want to impose my personal style on their story, or be a co-author. Sometimes the best editorial comment is harsh and cruel; "I don't think there is any hope for this story."

Where do you learn how to edit?

By finding a good editor or two and take note of how they edit your stories. Even bad editors can teach you how NOT to tell an author that a story needs lots of work or even a total rewrite.

Ask questions in the Editor's Forum or here in the Author's Hangout on specific editiong problems -- either things your editors have said about your work, or things you don't quote know how to say to a client.

One of the most important things an editor can do is comment on the good parts -- when something is done well, tell the client so. Editing by it's very nature generally concentrates on the negative aspects of a story. Throw as many "Warm Fuzzies" into the barrage of brick-bats as you can.

Finally, you should realize that there are two types or levels of editing -- copy edits and story edits.

Copy Edits are primarily concerned with finding typos and punctuation problems -- essentially proofreading.

Story editing is more concerned with the mechanics of story-telling than with the mechanics of writing -- plot, characterization, readability, etc.

Story editiing doesn't require that you know how to fix a problem, only that you can recognise a problem. If you can explain how to fix it as well, that's great. However, just pointing out that you can't follow a scene, or that the vocabulary goes over your head, is often better than a detailed explanation.

I have had a couple of editors tell me things that showed that the story I wanted to tell wasn't the story they were reading -- my words just didn't convey the impression I was hoping for. I've also had them complain that I achieved exactly the effect I was hoping for -- a multi-part argument that was slightly confusing to the reader, for example. I wanted to convey the confusion more than the detailed arguments that were flying around.

Story Editing is essentially the same as giving feedback, only more detailed. If you can give negative feedback without alienating th eauthor, you can story edit.

Copy editing takes more knowledge of grammar, spelling, punctuation, and semantics than story editing, but it's usually easier than story editing -- following the rules of grammar don't require as much thought as analyzing what you don't like about a story.

 

[BigTexan]

Copy editing takes more knowledge of grammar, spelling, punctuation, and semantics than story editing, but it's usually easier than story editing -- following the rules of grammar don't require as much thought as analyzing what you don't like about a story.

I think this is what KM was saying in her first post. But if you are editing a less experienced writer, who has reasonable talent but some technical as well as story problems, then you have to do both kinds of editing.

While KM professes to do very little proofreading of her stories here, her stories do not have many obvious technical errors either. I haven't read anything by WH, but his knowledge of the craft is apparent by his posts on the board, so I would assume his stories are fairly clean. Leaving the editor to concentrate on the "story editing"

I think trying to story edit while doing a copy edit is more difficult. The technical errors distract from the story but still the story needs help.

That is why I still feel like editing for less experienced writers is more work. Or maybe it's just because I'm a less experienced editor

BigTexan

 

[gauchecritic]

Just tonight I discovered the difference between editing and co-authoring. Instead of explaining where or how things were wrong I foolishly offered to edit by re-writing, it was so difficult not to impose my own style onto the work.

When I realised what I was doing I had to start again!

It must be easier with hard copy and a red pencil.

Gauche

 

[Weird Harold]

I haven't read anything by WH, but his knowledge of the craft is apparent by his posts on the board, so I would assume his stories are fairly clean. Leaving the editor to concentrate on the "story editing"

http://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=2173

I don't post stories under the Weird Harold handle -- just how to essays. The link is to my alter Ego, Dirty Old Man, and the three stories I have up -- Two Bags For the Bride was chosen for inclusion in the Literotica anthology and the best of the three.

Actually, most of the stuff I have had edited had more than enough technical errors and typos to keep a copy-editor busy. I have several tendencies that I have to watch very closely to keep them from getting out of control.