Duty or militarism?

[fifty5]

WILLING CONSCRIPT
(Tom Paxton)

Oh sergeant, I'm a draftee and I've just arrived in camp
I've come to wear the uniform and join the martial tramp
And I want to do my duty, but one thing I do implore
You must give me lessons, sergeant, for I've never killed before

To do my job obediently is all that I desire
To learn my weapon thoroughly and how to aim and fire
To learn to kill the enemy and how to slaughter more
Oh I'll need instructions, Sergeant, for I've never killed before

Now there are rumours in the camp about our enemy
They say that when you see him, he looks just like you and me
But you deny it, Sergeant, and you are a man of war
So you must give me lessons, Sergeant, for I've never killed before

Now there are several lessons that I have not mastered yet
I haven't got the hang of how to use the bayonet
If he doesn't die at once, am I to stick him with it more?
Oh I hope you will be patient, for I've never killed before

And the hand grenade is something that I just don't understand
You've got to throw it quickly or you're apt to lose your hand
Does it blow a man to pieces with its wicked muffled roar?
Oh I've got so much to learn because I've never killed before

Well I want to thank you, Sergeant, for the help you've been to me
You've taught me how to kill and how to hate the enemy
And I know that I'll be ready, when they march me off to war
And I know that it won't matter that I've never killed before

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course, that was written long ago at the time of Vietnam, about draftees ...

In the time of Iraq and Afghanistan - and volunteer armies (both US and UK) - how valid are the sentiments it implicitly and ironically presents for either the US or the UK (or even the UN)?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

There aren't any conscripts anymore and who gives a shit what Tom Paxton thinks?

 

[rgraham666]

Give them all the same grub
and all the same pay
and the war would be over
and done in a day.

Erich Maria Remarque.

 

[TE999]

Compare and contrast:

Pacifist War Song

By H. P. Lovecraft (1917)

We are the valiant knights of peace,
who prattle for it's right.
Our banner is of snowy fleece,
inscribed 'Too Proud to Fight'.

By sweet Chatauqua's flowry' banks,
we love to sing and play.
But should we spy the foemans ranks,
we bravely run away.

When Prussian fury sweeps the main,
our freedom to deny.
Of tyrant laws, we ne're complain,
but happily comply.

We do not fear the submarines,
that plough the troubled foam.
We scorn the ugly old machines,
and safely stay at home.

They say our country's close to war,
and we must man the guns.
But we see naught to struggle for,
we love the gentle Huns.

When through their swarthy hireling bands,
they invade our southern plains.
We well can spare these boisterous lands,
content with what remains.

Our fathers were both rude and bold,
and would not live like brothers.
But we are of a finer mould,
we're much more like our mothers.

 

[epiphany65]

Conscript or not, the important word is willing. Paxton is still relevant. So is this by Bob Dylan:

John Brown

John Brown went off to war to fight on a foreign shore.
His mama sure was proud of him!
He stood straight and tall in his uniform and all.
His mama's face broke out all in a grin.

"Oh son, you look so fine, I'm glad you're a son of mine,
You make me proud to know you hold a gun.
Do what the captain says, lots of medals you will get,
And we'll put them on the wall when you come home."

As that old train pulled out, John's ma began to shout,
Tellin' ev'ryone in the neighborhood:
"That's my son that's about to go, he's a soldier now, you know."
She made well sure her neighbors understood.

She got a letter once in a while and her face broke into a smile
As she showed them to the people from next door.
And she bragged about her son with his uniform and gun,
And these things you called a good old-fashioned war.

Oh! Good old-fashioned war!

Then the letters ceased to come, for a long time they did not come.
They ceased to come for about ten months or more.
Then a letter finally came saying, "Go down and meet the train.
Your son's a-coming home from the war."

She smiled and went right down, she looked everywhere around
But she could not see her soldier son in sight.
But as all the people passed, she saw her son at last,
When she did she could hardly believe her eyes.

Oh his face was all shot up and his hand was all blown off
And he wore a metal brace around his waist.
He whispered kind of slow, in a voice she did not know,
While she couldn't even recognize his face!

Oh! Lord! Not even recognize his face.

"Oh tell me, my darling son, pray tell me what they done.
How is it you come to be this way?"
He tried his best to talk but his mouth could hardly move
And the mother had to turn her face away.

"Don't you remember, Ma, when I went off to war
You thought it was the best thing I could do?
I was on the battleground, you were home . . . acting proud.
You wasn't there standing in my shoes."

"Oh, and I thought when I was there, God, what am I doing here?
I'm a-tryin' to kill somebody or die tryin'.
But the thing that scared me most was when my enemy came close
And I saw that his face looked just like mine."

Oh! Lord! Just like mine!

"And I couldn't help but think, through the thunder rolling and stink,
That I was just a puppet in a play.
And through the roar and smoke, this string is finally broke,
And a cannon ball blew my eyes away."

As he turned away to walk, his Ma was still in shock
At seein' the metal brace that helped him stand.
But as he turned to go, he called his mother close
And he dropped his medals down into her hand.

 

[rgraham666]

Another old favorite of mine.

Patriot's Dream by Gordon Lightfoot

The songs of the wars are as old as the hills
They cling like the rust on the cold steel that kills
They tell of the boys who went down to the tracks
In a patriotic manner with the cold steel on their backs

The patriot's dream is as old as the sky
It lives in the lust of a cold callous lie
Let's drink to the men who got caught by the chill
Of the patriotic fever and the cold steel that kills

The train pulled away on that glorious night
The drummer got drunk and the bugler got tight
While the boys in the back sang a song of good cheer
While riding off to glory in the spring of their years

The patriot's dream still lives on today
It makes mothers weep and it makes lovers pray
Let's drink to the men who got caught by the chill
Of the patriotic fever and the cold steel that kills

Well there was a sad, sad lady
Weeping all night long
She received a sad, sad message
From a voice on the telephone
Her children were all sleeping
As she waited out the dawn
How could she tell those children
That their father was shot down
So she took them to her side that day
And she told them one by one
Your father was a good man ten thousand miles from home
He tried to do his duty and it took him straight to hell
He might be in some prison, I hope he's treated well

Well there was a young girl watching in the early afternoon
When she heard the name of someone who said he'd be home soon
And she wondered how they got him, but the papers did not tell
There would be no sweet reunion, there would be no wedding bells
So she took herself into her room and she turned the bed sheets down
And she cried into the silken folds of her new wedding gown
He tried to do his duty and it took him straight to hell
He might be in some prison, I hope he's treated well

Well there was an old man sitting in his mansion on the hill
And he thought of his good fortune and the time he'd yet o kill
Well he called to his wife one day, come sit with me awhile
Then turning toward the sunset, he smiled a wicked smile
well I'd like to say I'm sorry for the sinful deeds I've done
But let me first remind you, I'm a patriotic son
They tried to do their duty and it took 'em straight to hell
They might be in some prison, I hope they're treated well

The songs of the wars are as old as the hills
They cling like the rust on the cold steel that kills
They tell of the boys who went down to the tracks
In a patriotic manner with the cold steel on their backs

The train pulled away on that glorious night
The drummer got drunk and the bugler got tight
While the boys in the back sang a song of good cheer
While riding off to glory in the spring of their years

The patriot's dream still lives on today
It makes mothers weep and it makes lovers pray
Let's drink to the men who got caught by the chill
Of the patriotic fever and the cold steel that kills

The music

 

[fifty5]

Personally, I believe black is white.

"What if they gave a war - and nobody came?"

AND

The Nazis were an evil that had to be defeated.

BUT

Both of those were so much simpler than Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran.

If we are to claim to be civilised, there must be another option.

 

[rgraham666]

Another favorite

And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda by various artists.

Now when I was a young man I carried me pack
And I lived the free life of the rover.
From the Murray's green basin to the dusty outback,
Well, I waltzed my Matilda all over.
Then in 1915, my country said, "Son,
It's time you stop ramblin', there's work to be done."
So they gave me a tin hat, and they gave me a gun,
And they marched me away to the war.

And the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
As the ship pulled away from the quay,
And amidst all the cheers, the flag waving, and tears,
We sailed off for Gallipoli.

And how well I remember that terrible day,
How our blood stained the sand and the water;
And of how in that hell that they call Suvla Bay
We were butchered like lambs at the slaughter.
Johnny Turk, he was waitin', he primed himself well;
He showered us with bullets, and he rained us with shell --
And in five minutes flat, he'd blown us all to hell,
Nearly blew us right back to Australia.

But the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
When we stopped to bury our slain,
Well, we buried ours, and the Turks buried theirs,
Then we started all over again.

And those that were left, well, we tried to survive
In that mad world of blood, death and fire.
And for ten weary weeks I kept myself alive
Though around me the corpses piled higher.
Then a big Turkish shell knocked me arse over head,
And when I woke up in me hospital bed
And saw what it had done, well, I wished I was dead --
Never knew there was worse things than dying.

For I'll go no more "Waltzing Matilda,"
All around the green bush far and free --
To hump tents and pegs, a man needs both legs,
No more "Waltzing Matilda" for me.

So they gathered the crippled, the wounded, the maimed,
And they shipped us back home to Australia.
The armless, the legless, the blind, the insane,
Those proud wounded heroes of Suvla.
And as our ship sailed into Circular Quay,
I looked at the place where me legs used to be,
And thanked Christ there was nobody waiting for me,
To grieve, to mourn and to pity.

But the band played "Waltzing Matilda,"
As they carried us down the gangway,
But nobody cheered, they just stood and stared,
Then they turned all their faces away.

And so now every April, I sit on my porch
And I watch the parade pass before me.
And I see my old comrades, how proudly they march,
Reviving old dreams of past glory,
And the old men march slowly, all bones stiff and sore,
They're tired old heroes from a forgotten war
And the young people ask "What are they marching for?"
And I ask meself the same question.

But the band plays "Waltzing Matilda,"
And the old men still answer the call,
But as year follows year, more old men disappear
Someday, no one will march there at all.

Waltzing Matilda, waltzing Matilda.
Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me?
And their ghosts may be heard as they march by the billabong,
Who'll come a-Waltzing Matilda with me?

 

[TE999]

Personally, I believe black is white.

"What if they gave a war - and nobody came?"

AND

The Nazis were an evil that had to be defeated.

BUT

Both of those were so much simpler than Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran.

If we are to claim to be civilised, there must be another option.

What an inane statement!

It wasn't so simple to the Poles in 1939...or the British in 1940...or the US in 1941.

The Axis was in the process of conquering most of the known world and our backs were against the wall. I t took years of blood and sweat to keep our freedoms we enjoy today. The freedoms some of us would relinquish to maintain a status quo of sorts.

Just because we're not in danger from tanks and guns, doesn't mean we're not in danger from bioweapons and suitcase nukes...not to mention a stray ICBM.

Now any ragtag bunch of fanatics can do what it once took an army to do.

Trying to play nicey-nice with those jokers is naive' at best...flat out stupid at worst.

The poem I posted up there may seem dated...it isn't.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I really get tired of the ramblings of those who choose not to understand while flaunting their moral superiority over those who serve. And next time Veterans Day comes around, don't bother to tell me how grateful you are.

 

[rgraham666]

Well, glad you think so highly of pacifists like myself, TE.

Yeah, I'm a pacifist. I much prefer peace to war. Doesn't mean I won't fight if I have to.

I'm just not going to go look for a fight.

 

[fifty5]

Well quoted Graham.

The bottom line is that war is something that really must be the very, very last alternative - only accepted reluctantly when nothing else will answer.

More: it requires international consensus that the regime being fought is evil.

I'm encouraged by current moves in international law: there seems to be consensus that just because evil is contained within national boundaries, that is no longer acceptable.

However, the US, whether or not supported by the UK, should not be judge, jury and executioner; we must build a super-national consensus based on universal human rights.

 

[TE999]

Well, glad you think so highly of pacifists like myself, TE.

Yeah, I'm a pacifist. I much prefer peace to war. Doesn't mean I won't fight if I have to.

I'm just not going to go look for a fight.

Neither do I Rob...I'm not against pacificism...it's just not a terribly realistic concept.

The Lovecraft poem may be harsh...but the sentiments have validity in the light of unalloyed agression.

I've never started a fight, but I've finished a few.

And it's Tom btw.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Well quoted Graham.

The bottom line is that war is something that really must be the very, very last alternative - only accepted reluctantly when nothing else will answer.

More: it requires international consensus that the regime being fought is evil.

I'm encouraged by current moves in international law: there seems to be consensus that just because evil is contained within national boundaries, that is no longer acceptable.

However, the US, whether or not supported by the UK, should not be judge, jury and executioner; we must build a super-national consensus based on universal human rights.

Then lets make sure that we're talking about the politicians that gave the order. The doggeral quoted would have one believe that soldiers really enjoy killing people. You can't tell anyone how horrible war is when you've never been in one. Civilians!

 

[DesertPirate]

Then lets make sure that we're talking about the politicians that gave the order. The doggeral quoted would have one believe that soldiers really enjoy killing people. You can't tell anyone how horrible war is when you've never been in one. Civilians!

I'm with you VM

 

[rgraham666]

Then lets make sure that we're talking about the politicians that gave the order. The doggeral quoted would have one believe that soldiers really enjoy killing people. You can't tell anyone how horrible war is when you've never been in one. Civilians!

On the contrary. I'm a civilian and have a pretty clear idea of the horror that is war.

I've been studying war for most of my adult life.

 

[incubus666]

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A poem by Rudyard Kipling
Tommy
________________________________________________
Title: Tommy
Author: Rudyard Kipling [Titles by Kipling]

Tommy

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!


-THE END-

 

[TE999]

On the contrary. I'm a civilian and have a pretty clear idea of the horror that is war.

I've been studying war for most of my adult life.

I've worn the uniform proudly, but never went to war in the classic sense.

I'm a student of war myself...there's no glory to it...but sometimes it's the only option if you wish to stay free.

Like Patton said...You don't die for your country, you make the other son-of-a-bitch die for his country.

 

[Dragonlipz]

From a combat veteran:

War is one ugly, filthy business. There's no honor or glory, survival is is the goal. Terror punctuated by images no amount of whiskey or women's smiles can blot out.....

 

[fifty5]

What an inane statement!

It wasn't so simple to the Poles in 1939...or the British in 1940...or the US in 1941.

Where was the complexity? In all those cases the issue was very simple: give in to oppression, or fight it.

The Axis was in the process of conquering most of the known world and our backs were against the wall. It took years of blood and sweat to keep our freedoms we enjoy today. The freedoms some of us would relinquish to maintain a status quo of sorts.

Exactly. That is simple.

Just because we're not in danger from tanks and guns, doesn't mean we're not in danger from bioweapons and suitcase nukes...not to mention a stray ICBM.

Now any ragtag bunch of fanatics can do what it once took an army to do.

Trying to play nicey-nice with those jokers is naive' at best...flat out stupid at worst.

But that is complicated. There is no equivalent to Berlin, Nazi Germany, or a belligerent Japan in these cases.

The closest thing to an equivalent is a religion - Islam - and believe me that really isn't a valid equivalent. Most followers of Islam - and I know because many of my close neighbours follow that religion - are not fanatics and believe terrorism is wrong (and the Qran supports them).

The UK has just seen a widely publicised case over the killing of an innocent civilian because he was thought to be a suicide bomber.

The event was wrong beyond any dispute, but the actions of the police, even if not according to correct procedure, was understandable - they were scared witless of another terrorist attack.

This sort of thing IS complicated. It is NOT simple.

The poem I posted up there may seem dated...it isn't.

But then, neither are any of the others... (It should be a poppy.)

 

[trysail]

The son of a friend of mine joined this summer— 82nd Airborne, next stop, Afghanistan.

The nephew of my friend is USMA '11.

Both felt a calling, a call to duty and they're committed to following the orders of the lawfully elected Commander-In-Chief.

The world is a nasty, nasty place. That is never going to change.

I love military people and only wish the world was populated with more like them. You, on the other hand, may not like 'em but when you need 'em, believe me— you really, really need 'em.

God bless 'em.

 

[fifty5]

when you need 'em, believe me — you really, really need 'em.

True, but I'm less convinced that they are only sent to fight when we need them that much.

 

[TE999]

The closest thing to an equivalent is a religion - Islam - and believe me that really isn't a valid equivalent. Most followers of Islam - and I know because many of my close neighbours follow that religion - are not fanatics and believe terrorism is wrong (and the Qran supports them).

This sort of thing IS complicated. It is NOT simple.

But then, neither are any of the others... (It should be a poppy.)

Granted, most believers in Islam are peaceful sorts who just want a quiet life as we do. It's because of fanatics who twist the teachings of Mohammed to serve their own ends that we need to maintain vigilance.

A suicide bomber exploding in a crowded market cannot be reasoned with...not unlike a 1,000 pounder dropped from a plane. It's a new world and a new war and the old rules don't apply.

Strong men stand guard so the rest of us can sleep peacefully. T'was ever thus.

I think we can agree on one thing...war is hell...and sometimes unavoidable.

In Flander's fields, the poppies grow, among the crosses, row on row.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

True, but I'm less convinced that they are only sent to fight when we need them that much.

And you'd rather rely on the police in hopes that it's really all about civil crime? That if you still try to rely on the English Channel they won't come get you? That's exactly the response that Hitler counted on.

 

[rgraham666]

I've worn the uniform proudly, but never went to war in the classic sense.

I'm a student of war myself...there's no glory to it...but sometimes it's the only option if you wish to stay free.

Like Patton said...You don't die for your country, you make the other son-of-a-bitch die for his country.

I've never worn a uniform.

Just as well. If I had joined up I would have ended up like Vincent D'onfrio's character in Full Metal Jacket, sitting on a toilet with an M14 in my mouth and my brains on the wall behind me.