Dual Level Writing

[AlwaysHungry]

But, no blowjobs! No looking over her shoulder and whispering, "Fuck me!" No anal lubes or BBCs! What good is that?

I occurred to me that that might be a problem.

Regarding Mr. Brazil's original challenge, I have just completed a 5-part novella which aspires to be seriously literary, while also loaded with smut. Some of the smut is necessary for character development, particularly for my villain. I attempt to present a plausible glimpse into his psychological make-up, and his sexual proclivities provide an important window for that.

Here are links to the five parts:

https://www.literotica.com/s/when-the-masks-come-off-in-venice

https://www.literotica.com/s/when-the-snow-comes-down-in-venice

https://www.literotica.com/s/where-the-chips-may-fall-in-venice

https://www.literotica.com/s/where-the-bodies-are-buried-in-venice

https://www.literotica.com/s/the-venetian-series-05-dead-in-the-water

 

[Nathan_Brazil]

I occurred to me that that might be a problem.

Regarding Mr. Brazil's original challenge, I have just completed a 5-part novella which aspires to be seriously literary, while also loaded with smut. Some of the smut is necessary for character development, particularly for my villain. I attempt to present a plausible glimpse into his psychological make-up, and his sexual proclivities provide an important window for that.

Here are links to the five parts:

https://www.literotica.com/s/when-the-masks-come-off-in-venice

https://www.literotica.com/s/when-the-snow-comes-down-in-venice

https://www.literotica.com/s/where-the-chips-may-fall-in-venice

https://www.literotica.com/s/where-the-bodies-are-buried-in-venice

https://www.literotica.com/s/the-venetian-series-05-dead-in-the-water

One of the others pointed me to your writing. She suggested this very piece.

I will read it, but am currently reading something else that she recommended. So... Maybe tomorrow.

I will let you know.

Oh... Y'all can call me Nate.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

In your examples of the strip club here? I'd visit neither of them. Well crafted but not hot is as bad as hot elements but terrible framework. ...

In the end there's two kinds of readers. Call them story lovers and fetishists.

Fetishists barely care who the characters are. All that matters is what they do. If they screw in a church, or bang their mommy, or make penguin noises during sex - whatever the fetish happens to be - it's a good story. Likely they'll read one handed, rate high, and be done reading until the fetish needs to be stroked again. Characters, plot, dialog - all set to minimum. They slow stuff down; they might lose you the reader if there's too much of it. They like porn. Poor writing isn't too important.

I like to think all these readers are male, but I've known a few women who liked it this way.

Story lovers are in it for the story. Erotic scenes are meaningless unless they are invested in the characters.They like a long slow build up, maybe some romance, and frequently realism, at least as far as the character actions are concerned. If girl and guy (or whatever) don't have obvious reason to be attracted, they don't want them in bed. They don't like porn. Poor writing ruins everything.

Mostly female? My fan mail says so.

Long live the largely disjoint sets of readers.

 

[sr71plt]

I guess I'm a story lover fetisher writer.

 

[SecondCircle]

In the end there's two kinds of readers. Call them story lovers and fetishists.

I guess I'm a story lover fetisher writer.

I agree. Why can't someone be both?

Often I'm fond of writing (and reading, since I write the way I'd enjoy reading) story driven erotica, but the sex I include is often incredibly explicit.

And I've seen that there are plenty of readers that enjoy this too.

It does kind of baffle me that when a person likes something one way (say, your fetishists, HitD) they seem to shun the other ways. Rather than just accepting that there's an audience for everything.

I just think that there are ALL forms of reading and writing at Lit. There's purely sex, there's sex with story, there's story with a touch of sex, there's a mixture of both, there's flat porn, there's deeper meaning... there's all of it. From my time here in reading in very many categories, I've seen flat out "I kiked in tha door and camed in her fase" stories which are little more than Penthouse Forum letters, and plenty of people cry "It was so hawt and awesome! Write ten sequels please!" I've also seem comments go on and on about how they fell in love with a deeply woven erotic epic, and that the emotion and symbolism were crafted so well and on and on and on.

I actually think that's what's pretty cool about a platform like Lit. Readers and Writers are free to indulge in whatever it is they may like. And there ain't a right way to do it on a free platform. So I don't see the sense in condemning one or the other. I have my own preferences and I can explain why I prefer them, but I don't really dismiss other styles just because they are outside of my taste.

 

[lovecraft68]

In the end there's two kinds of readers. Call them story lovers and fetishists.

Fetishists barely care who the characters are. All that matters is what they do. If they screw in a church, or bang their mommy, or make penguin noises during sex - whatever the fetish happens to be - it's a good story. Likely they'll read one handed, rate high, and be done reading until the fetish needs to be stroked again. Characters, plot, dialog - all set to minimum. They slow stuff down; they might lose you the reader if there's too much of it. They like porn. Poor writing isn't too important.

I like to think all these readers are male, but I've known a few women who liked it this way.

Story lovers are in it for the story. Erotic scenes are meaningless unless they are invested in the characters.They like a long slow build up, maybe some romance, and frequently realism, at least as far as the character actions are concerned. If girl and guy (or whatever) don't have obvious reason to be attracted, they don't want them in bed. They don't like porn. Poor writing ruins everything.

Mostly female? My fan mail says so.

Long live the largely disjoint sets of readers.

My wife enjoys stroke stories a lot more than I do, so it is hard to attribute anything here strictly to male/female behavior.

I also wonder-in every aspect- is it the author or the reader as far as the chicken and the egg.

Is it that authors just write more stoke and the readers find them or is it that when numbers obsessed authors see how well stroke does they write that way to pander to the audience? What drives what?

I can't just write wham bam type things for example foot fetish is a as simple of a kink as you can find and many stories here in that genre are 1/2 pages, what do you really need?

I have two "Under the mistletoe" is 4 page and "Paid by the Foot" is also four pages, both are over 4.7. My style there is my style everywhere, I build it up.

But conversely my three all time fav foot stories are one page each. All three delever what needs to be delivered for me, but when I pen my own, they become longer because its how I do things.

 

[lovecraft68]

I think if someone asked me to point to my stories I think are literary I wouldn't have an idea which they are because like everything else, 'literary' is going to mean different things to different people.

If the criteria is simply story driven over sex driven, characterization, depth of character and story line, content that is more 'real' than the average sex story and something a 'cut above' story wise then I guess I have a few.

One story had multiple comments along the lines of "I can't believe this was on literotica" and "This read like something I'd find in a real bookstore" so maybe that's what same would mean by literary.

But that one and a couple of similar ones also have content far darker than what the average person goes for here. The one thing I am sure of is if people feel they are literary, there was no designed effort for them to be other than to tell the story in my head.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

In your examples of the strip club here? I'd visit neither of them. Well crafted but not hot is as bad as hot elements but terrible framework.

"Penthouse Letters" are fine. They can be arousing. And sure that's all that's "needed". But likewise, there's only so much tab A and slot B can do before it slips into the sea of mediocrity.

I agree with some of what you say, but I don't think it's finite. For example keep that logic going. You don't 'need' deeper meaning to write something hot, or to write people fucking. Keep going though. Why develop the characters? We don't need to know who they are, do we? The acts they commit are hot enough right? Why build setting? A generic bedroom "is enough" is it not? Hell, do they need to even talk? Why bother crafting dialogue?

You can work this backwards all the way to a simple "this girl I banged" story told at a bar, and because taste is in the eye of the beholder, someone will still find it hot.

So why use these writing tools to make it taste better and better?

Why not?

I used to sell erotica to "Penthouse Letters" and similar confessional letter markets.

Those magazines churned through content, and yet, every single editor longed for the same thing: a story, some kind of character development. They all wanted something more than the classic "Dear Penthouse, I always thought these letters were bullshit until the day my female UPS driver showed up with a box full of dildos and a wry smile on her face."

Did they accomplish their goal? For the longer pieces, the ones they paid for (versus the reader submitted content), yeah, I think they did. Sure the emphasis was on the sex, but a setup was required, too.

Equally required was the ability to follow writer's guidelines. Typically 3000 words, submitted double-spaced, with a SASE (self-addressed, stamped envelope for returns). Was it art? Hell, are lower end romance novels (or detective, or true crime, or any number of other pulp markets) considered art?

Yes, they CAN be, however, getting a decent story told in an accessible way more important.

I applaud any Lit author who manages to combine a sense of higher purpose with an equal dose of titillation. There was a time when X-Rated movies tried to be cinema, but shooting the action on film vs tape wasn't the secret to making a porno cinematic.

 

[SecondCircle]

I think if someone asked me to point to my stories I think are literary I wouldn't have an idea which they are because like everything else, 'literary' is going to mean different things to different people.

If the criteria is simply story driven over sex driven, characterization, depth of character and story line, content that is more 'real' than the average sex story and something a 'cut above' story wise then I guess I have a few.

One story had multiple comments along the lines of "I can't believe this was on literotica" and "This read like something I'd find in a real bookstore" so maybe that's what same would mean by literary.

But that one and a couple of similar ones also have content far darker than what the average person goes for here. The one thing I am sure of is if people feel they are literary, there was no designed effort for them to be other than to tell the story in my head.

Quite so.

You'll get thousands of definitions of what literary is, especially when you venture into the realm of taste. At base form I think if you at all used any measure of literary tools (and these could be as simple as using dialogue to drive a story or good clever character development to draw readers I'm) then it has my vote for being "literary".

The "natural" aspect of this though... I don't think it changes very much. I've used this example before, But imagine a singer. She's on stage at some local venue, and it's clear to everyone this girl has got a voice. It moves people. And ultimately it entertains the crowd. Everyone cheers and applauds her as she leaves the stage. A music enthusiast, say a music teacher who teaches people to do what the singer just did, approaches her.

"That was excellent! I know very few people that can hit a high C like you did."

The singer shakes her head. "I don't sing notes or anything like that. I've never been taught music, I just love to sing. I don't actually sing in scales."

The musician smiles and replies, "Well, yes. You may never have had a single lesson, but those are notes and scales you are singing. That thing you did with your voice at the end is still called vibrato. Whether it was taught or you picked it up singing the songs you love, it was a beautiful vibrato."

Our fair singer may never need a single lesson in music theory to stun an audience. She is a natural. But this doesn't mean she isn't actually singing notes and advancing through scales and harmonizing. And it's likely the music she sings to would never have been so carefully crafted had it not been for the organization of sound into "music theory".

A natural writer may simply write what the audience loves. But the craft of writing-- character development, plot archs, pacing, dialogue... the literary elements are still there.

 

[rjordan]

I used to sell erotica to "Penthouse Letters" and similar confessional letter markets.

Those magazines churned through content, and yet, every single editor longed for the same thing: a story, some kind of character development. They all wanted something more than the classic "Dear Penthouse, I always thought these letters were bullshit until the day my female UPS driver showed up with a box full of dildos and a wry smile on her face."

I've always thought that most of the stories by newbies here read exactly like Penthouse Letters. I think that they had a huge impact on the market for smut, and new writers mimic that style. It's what they think of as smut. It may not be what the editors were longing for, but it's mostly what they had to publish.

rj

 

[le_kitty]

Quite so.

You'll get thousands of definitions of what literary is, especially when you venture into the realm of taste. At base form I think if you at all used any measure of literary tools (and these could be as simple as using dialogue to drive a story or good clever character development to draw readers I'm) then it has my vote for being "literary".

The "natural" aspect of this though... I don't think it changes very much. I've used this example before, But imagine a singer. She's on stage at some local venue, and it's clear to everyone this girl has got a voice. It moves people. And ultimately it entertains the crowd. Everyone cheers and applauds her as she leaves the stage. A music enthusiast, say a music teacher who teaches people to do what the singer just did, approaches her.

"That was excellent! I know very few people that can hit a high C like you did."

The singer shakes her head. "I don't sing notes or anything like that. I've never been taught music, I just love to sing. I don't actually sing in scales."

The musician smiles and replies, "Well, yes. You may never have had a single lesson, but those are notes and scales you are singing. That thing you did with your voice at the end is still called vibrato. Whether it was taught or you picked it up singing the songs you love, it was a beautiful vibrato."

Our fair singer may never need a single lesson in music theory to stun an audience. She is a natural. But this doesn't mean she isn't actually singing notes and advancing through scales and harmonizing. And it's likely the music she sings to would never have been so carefully crafted had it not been for the organization of sound into "music theory".

A natural writer may simply write what the audience loves. But the craft of writing-- character development, plot archs, pacing, dialogue... the literary elements are still there.

Yes, agreed. It's a sad thing when someone has to hide what they are reading because they are afraid of being judged.

You also bring to mind something called the "10,000 hour rule" (Malcolm Gladwell brings this up in his book Outliers), a generalisation to a degree, but that's effectively what it is when people say talent is fine, but persevering is key. If someone is naturally talented at something, after enough practice, they will excel even more. This is true for writing, but especially for music where the results or lack of, are extremely tangible. It's why starting early has an advantage, though I do not think starting early should be an excuse, starting late just means more miles to clock up before a certain level is reached. And not everyone has to aspire to 10,000 hours.

 

[lovecraft68]

Quite so.

You'll get thousands of definitions of what literary is, especially when you venture into the realm of taste. At base form I think if you at all used any measure of literary tools (and these could be as simple as using dialogue to drive a story or good clever character development to draw readers I'm) then it has my vote for being "literary".

The "natural" aspect of this though... I don't think it changes very much. I've used this example before, But imagine a singer. She's on stage at some local venue, and it's clear to everyone this girl has got a voice. It moves people. And ultimately it entertains the crowd. Everyone cheers and applauds her as she leaves the stage. A music enthusiast, say a music teacher who teaches people to do what the singer just did, approaches her.

"That was excellent! I know very few people that can hit a high C like you did."

The singer shakes her head. "I don't sing notes or anything like that. I've never been taught music, I just love to sing. I don't actually sing in scales."

The musician smiles and replies, "Well, yes. You may never have had a single lesson, but those are notes and scales you are singing. That thing you did with your voice at the end is still called vibrato. Whether it was taught or you picked it up singing the songs you love, it was a beautiful vibrato."

Our fair singer may never need a single lesson in music theory to stun an audience. She is a natural. But this doesn't mean she isn't actually singing notes and advancing through scales and harmonizing. And it's likely the music she sings to would never have been so carefully crafted had it not been for the organization of sound into "music theory".

A natural writer may simply write what the audience loves. But the craft of writing-- character development, plot archs, pacing, dialogue... the literary elements are still there.

Good example and I wonder with people who are just natural with any type of talent if taking them and properly training them doesn't back fire and they can lose some of their natural gifts.

Like doing something without thinking, but as soon as you think about it, you fuck it up.

I think some people-and I know I am one-have issues with structure. Best example I can't make an outline, well I technically know how to, but I mean I can't as in it fucks with me.

Why? Its structure. Its me now having parameters within which I have to stay. I can't fly by the seat of my pants and let the story take itself because I have this outline that says "Whoa, see this box, stay in it"

But that's me and others like me, some need structure, my wife needs structure when she works on her books. She outlines she frets, she stubbornly sticks to her original ideas and allows no straying from her path, it works for her.

She once pointed out that all she needs to know about how my mind works is music choice. I write to heavy rock right up to death metal., screeching, yelling, can't make out the damn lyrics, music that just crashes, but I focus well through it, give me something mellow and I'm lost. I cannot function with structure.

I've been chatting on skyper writer I met through a publisher and she had read my 'Abigail" story and wanted to discuss it. When I told her I did it in three weeks with no outline she kept coming back to, "No, it doesn't work like that, don't you get it?" I keep saying "It doesn't work for you like that."

And neither way is right or wrong and I'm fine with how anyone writes as long as they are fine with it themselves. My only issue is when it becomes someone trying to force their thoughts on someone else or has the 'better than' approach.

I've read a couple of your stories, I like them, but we may very well have very opposite approaches to writing. For example if your writing approach matches your posting style you really think things through and deeply, I don't think about anything other than, "Hey this would be fun to write", but if the end result is an enjoyable story, who cares?

 

[rjordan]

A natural writer may simply write what the audience loves. But the craft of writing-- character development, plot archs, pacing, dialogue... the literary elements are still there.

We're all readers first. We are exposed to a lot of writing, and by and large, most of it is very good. If it wasn't good it would be less likely to be published. Most of the crap gets filtered out. So by the time someone decides they want to write, they have already been exposed to mostly quality writing. They start with a framework in their head of what to expect of decent (not necessarily "literary") writing. Just as your singer was exposed to years of professional singing before she set out to try it herself.

BTW, there was an O Henry story (Gift of the Magi) linked here as an example of incredible writing talent, which I don't question. However, I found it nearly unreadable. It may or may not have had all the elements that please literary people, but I couldn't get through it even by skimming. I wouldn't offer that piece as something to emulate for new Lit writers. It would be like having the music teacher recommend your new singer emulate something operatic.

rj

 

[SecondCircle]

I can see these points.

I learned guitar trial by fire. "No lessons".

Now, okay, technically that doesn't mean what it used to in the age before internet. There's an endless supply of information at our fingertips today, and chord formations and tapping tutorials are among that information. (But really, this makes it no easier finding the RIGHT information, and newbies still are lost without actual lessons.) As far as an actual lesson... never. I've figured it out myself.

Along my journey, natural talent carried me far. I didn't need to figure out methodical formulas to understand how to play the music I loved. I picked up the techniques I know by listening and watching-- sliding, tapping, hammers and pulloffs, bends, chord formations, lead fills.... I took myself all the way from simplistic exercise to (now) playing full on Disturbed and Metallica.

Here's where it gets interesting. I can learn just about any song I want to. I can replicate anything I put my mind to. But just because I can recreate this and ultimately entertain... you hit a major wall when you start trying to CREATE your own music. Dont get me wrong. I've written plenty of licks and tunes, but each one just sounds basic and really doesn't ascend to the next level of ultimate harmony.

It's hard to explain without mind boggling music theory jargon, but "music theory" is basically the "literary writing" of music. There's these tools and crafts, just like writing. The "fornula" behind it so to speak. Chord progression, arpeggios, and harmonizing whole scales may as well be atmosphere, sentence structure, and character development in this sense. The problem arises when you want to take your art to the next level. The very fabric of the cloth must be understood so that they can be woven into a truly incredible garment.

In music, it is incredibly difficult to actually craft your own music and make it sound transcendent and beautiful on another level (and original) without understanding music theory. I believe it's likewise in any other art. Paint a wonderful picture, but it may always just be a beautifully captured apple. Understand lighting and mood, and that apple might EVOKE impressions of a poisoned apple a witch might offer to a princess. Anyone can take a picture. True photographers can snap photos in just the right way that a photo tells a story, because they understand the ins and outs of photography.

Likewise, a writer might find one day that they can only achieve so much without wielding each and every tool at their disposal. It just matters what they wish to achieve. I may never want to write intricate musical numbers. Jamming Disturbed is just fine for now. Writing a little one-off song with basic structure may be absolutely cool with me.

One day, though, I may want to write something so detailed and harmonious that it moves someone else and makes them want to pick up the guitar.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

I agree. Why can't someone be both?

My writing attracts people who like deeper meanings, but repels people who want females to be the dominant partner in a relationship. I've gotten a couple of comments literally lamenting that "you write so well, it's a pity you peddle this chauvinism." And plenty of comments from people who love both the style and the D/s "fetish". Someone can certainly be both - but I honestly think it's more common to be both when you're into D/s or maybe BDSM than foot fetish. When women fetishise, it's generally (as far as I can tell) Incest or Forceful/Powerful Male. It's ultimately about relationships. When men fetishize, it's more often a body part or specific act. These are sweeping generalizations, I know that. But they seem to hold up pretty well in my experience.

Note: I don't know enough about the incest audience to really know how many guys want to do their mommies. My generalization may not hold up for incest. I do not understand incest.

 

[le_kitty]

We're all readers first. We are exposed to a lot of writing, and by and large, most of it is very good. If it wasn't good it would be less likely to be published. Most of the crap gets filtered out. So by the time someone decides they want to write, they have already been exposed to mostly quality writing. They start with a framework in their head of what to expect of decent (not necessarily "literary") writing. Just as your singer was exposed to years of professional singing before she set out to try it herself.

BTW, there was an O Henry story (Gift of the Magi) linked here as an example of incredible writing talent, which I don't question. However, I found it nearly unreadable. It may or may not have had all the elements that please literary people, but I couldn't get through it even by skimming. I wouldn't offer that piece as something to emulate for new Lit writers. It would be like having the music teacher recommend your new singer emulate something operatic.

rj

Very true. I read a lot throughout my childhood and adolescent years and I think that attributed to my ability to write, which did get validated by my teachers during high school. Still, there is a learning curve and whether I realised it or not, I copied expression and ways of writing, even my vocabulary was copied, at no point did I ever pick up a dictionary to learn words, but during my early endeavours, I would write and certain words would just come to me with a 'right' feeling attached. I actually looked up definitions after the fact. Still, people say write from experience, but it's hard to do so when you have so little, so young writers emulate seasoned ones until then. Young performers emulate seasoned ones until they find their own style, or interpretation.

I think individuals know what they like though. The problem is when individual A comes along and tries to tell individual B what is good and what is not, and what they should do and how they should do it. Nothing kills passion faster. Good teachers encourage students to express themselves and pursue what they like whilst giving them the tools necessary to do so. Terrible teachers cut off your wings before you've even had a chance to try them.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

...
One day, though, I may want to write something so detailed and harmonious that it moves someone else and makes them want to pick up the guitar.

Neat and moving description, with a vivid analogy.

The last line hit a chord (sorry) with me. I write D/s stories that make male dominance appealing to women, at least to women who lean that way at all. I go out of my way to make the males imperfect, but the reality is my stories are generally HEA - good males get the girl, bad males get what they deserve, and women get to fall in love. It's all so beautiful.

In real life, D/s tends to be sketchier. If either partner is acting out of emotional damage, and plenty of people do, the results can get bleak or even ugly. I spend time hoping no one tries to "pick up the guitar" just from reading my stories. For the same reason you don't really want a princess straight outta Disney in the actual politics of actual countries.

 

[sr71plt]

We're all readers first.
rj

Speak for yourself (in fact, it's always safest to speak only for yourself unless you have sources to quote). I do a lot of reading, but I do a whole lot more writing than reading.

 

[SecondCircle]

Neat and moving description, with a vivid analogy.

The last line hit a chord (sorry) with me. I write D/s stories that make male dominance appealing to women, at least to women who lean that way at all. I go out of my way to make the males imperfect, but the reality is my stories are generally HEA - good males get the girl, bad males get what they deserve, and women get to fall in love. It's all so beautiful.

In real life, D/s tends to be sketchier. If either partner is acting out of emotional damage, and plenty of people do, the results can get bleak or even ugly. I spend time hoping no one tries to "pick up the guitar" just from reading my stories. For the same reason you don't really want a princess straight outta Disney in the actual politics of actual countries.

In this sense, I mean pick up the guitar like "also want to write," not necessarily DO the things I write about.

I favor horror, but I would never condone many of the things I write about. I just want to make it moving enough that it meets someone else's passion in horror... maybe write some of their own. That was the basis of the final line.

 

[SecondCircle]

Speak for yourself (in fact, it's always safest to speak only for yourself unless you have sources to quote). I do a lot of reading, but I do a whole lot more writing than reading.

I think he meant at one time we loved reading good stories enough to take the plunge to write some good stories.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Good example and I wonder with people who are just natural with any type of talent if taking them and properly training them doesn't back fire and they can lose some of their natural gifts.

Like doing something without thinking, but as soon as you think about it, you fuck it up.

I think some people-and I know I am one-have issues with structure. Best example I can't make an outline, well I technically know how to, but I mean I can't as in it fucks with me.

Why? Its structure. Its me now having parameters within which I have to stay. I can't fly by the seat of my pants and let the story take itself because I have this outline that says "Whoa, see this box, stay in it"

But that's me and others like me, some need structure, my wife needs structure when she works on her books. She outlines she frets, she stubbornly sticks to her original ideas and allows no straying from her path, it works for her.

She once pointed out that all she needs to know about how my mind works is music choice. I write to heavy rock right up to death metal., screeching, yelling, can't make out the damn lyrics, music that just crashes, but I focus well through it, give me something mellow and I'm lost. I cannot function with structure.

I've been chatting on skyper writer I met through a publisher and she had read my 'Abigail" story and wanted to discuss it. When I told her I did it in three weeks with no outline she kept coming back to, "No, it doesn't work like that, don't you get it?" I keep saying "It doesn't work for you like that."

And neither way is right or wrong and I'm fine with how anyone writes as long as they are fine with it themselves. My only issue is when it becomes someone trying to force their thoughts on someone else or has the 'better than' approach.

I've read a couple of your stories, I like them, but we may very well have very opposite approaches to writing. For example if your writing approach matches your posting style you really think things through and deeply, I don't think about anything other than, "Hey this would be fun to write", but if the end result is an enjoyable story, who cares?

I agree with your view more than I disagree. The soul or your argument is correct. Learn any language and youll speak it your way, but your way may be schizophrenic word salad. I shuffle cards different from anyone but it shuffles cards, the deck really changes arrangement. That said, what we do must conform to the set of logical operations or the method is nonsense.

I usta stay up all night testing logical operations on my computer, usually factoring large numbers. What got results fastest stayed around.

 

[le_kitty]

I can see these points.

I learned guitar trial by fire. "No lessons".

Now, okay, technically that doesn't mean what it used to in the age before internet. There's an endless supply of information at our fingertips today, and chord formations and tapping tutorials are among that information. (But really, this makes it no easier finding the RIGHT information, and newbies still are lost without actual lessons.) As far as an actual lesson... never. I've figured it out myself.

Along my journey, natural talent carried me far. I didn't need to figure out methodical formulas to understand how to play the music I loved. I picked up the techniques I know by listening and watching-- sliding, tapping, hammers and pulloffs, bends, chord formations, lead fills.... I took myself all the way from simplistic exercise to (now) playing full on Disturbed and Metallica.

Here's where it gets interesting. I can learn just about any song I want to. I can replicate anything I put my mind to. But just because I can recreate this and ultimately entertain... you hit a major wall when you start trying to CREATE your own music. Dont get me wrong. I've written plenty of licks and tunes, but each one just sounds basic and really doesn't ascend to the next level of ultimate harmony.

It's hard to explain without mind boggling music theory jargon, but "music theory" is basically the "literary writing" of music. There's these tools and crafts, just like writing. The "fornula" behind it so to speak. Chord progression, arpeggios, and harmonizing whole scales may as well be atmosphere, sentence structure, and character development in this sense. The problem arises when you want to take your art to the next level. The very fabric of the cloth must be understood so that they can be woven into a truly incredible garment.

In music, it is incredibly difficult to actually craft your own music and make it sound transcendent and beautiful on another level (and original) without understanding music theory. I believe it's likewise in any other art. Paint a wonderful picture, but it may always just be a beautifully captured apple. Understand lighting and mood, and that apple might EVOKE impressions of a poisoned apple a witch might offer to a princess. Anyone can take a picture. True photographers can snap photos in just the right way that a photo tells a story, because they understand the ins and outs of photography.

Likewise, a writer might find one day that they can only achieve so much without wielding each and every tool at their disposal. It just matters what they wish to achieve. I may never want to write intricate musical numbers. Jamming Disturbed is just fine for now. Writing a little one-off song with basic structure may be absolutely cool with me.

One day, though, I may want to write something so detailed and harmonious that it moves someone else and makes them want to pick up the guitar.

I am always very impressed with people who self teach.

Though I am curious, give me an example of "the next level of ultimate harmony".

This especially, resonates with me,

In music, it is incredibly difficult to actually craft your own music and make it sound transcendent and beautiful on another level (and original) without understanding music theory.

Music theory tells you the how and why. It helps, but often when the how and why become involved, music can fall flat. Simplicity is beautiful. Though... you must know the rules in order to break them, so music theory helps. Until it becomes the reason why something a student has written, 'does not work' because they broke the rules without knowing them. Formal education can be painful in that way. Also with music, at least two people are involved, the composer/artist and the performer, unless you are both. The performance is half the magic. But I think the sweet spot is improvisation. Again that requires a knowledge of theory to some level, but I think it is far better if it comes from instinct first.

I should probably tie that back into the art of writing...

 

[rjordan]

Speak for yourself (in fact, it's always safest to speak only for yourself unless you have sources to quote). I do a lot of reading, but I do a whole lot more writing than reading.

Then you appear to have lost some of your ability to read for comprehension.

We learn to read first. Then we learn to write.

We listen to music first. Then we learn to play.

We listen to speech first. Then we learn to speak.

In each case we are exposed to more sophisticated patterns than we are able to produce, and that's what we learn from. We build our own patterns, but based on what we learned as readers, listeners, etc.

Obligatory quote:
"Learn any language and you'll speak it your way, but your way may be schizophrenic word salad." [NOIRTRASH]

rj

 

[MSTarot]

I have a conflict, a situation that must be resolved fro life to return to normal for the character. I toss a basic character, with often little more than a name, into that conflict and watch them develop as I write.

And I do not plan complex hidden things, but they tend to appear there on their own as I write and the needs of the story create them.

I will "see" several roads forward that I can take the character down, kind of like chess. This move will make this happen, and then this and then that will result.

But equally often I will get an odd idea and simply toss it in, like a cat landing on that chess board those ideas disrupt things, so I then let planning go to the way side.

Just write. And if you get tangled up simple tango on till you're unstuck.


And in a my opinion moment, I think erotica is only simple and porn if that is what you make of it. It can be more complex than any other type of storytelling simply because we're having to detail out prose on one of the most basic human needs, drives, and functions in a way that is enjoyable and believable.

People died in the past for the right to write sex into their stories. Sex that would seem tame as hell compared to what we are doing. Write what you like yes, but at the same time remember this simple fact.

What you are writing could be the subject of future book reports.

 

[Nathan_Brazil]

It is pretty clear from the responses that the answer to the original question is that most of the authors who post in AH understand the theory of multiple meanings, even though some of them pooh pooh the need to do it here.

And I understand that.

They've chosen to pursue a market rather than art, and that's okay too.

But... I still say, when you are able to inject art into your market, then you'll have something that may outlast you.

I'm a hack. A rank amateur. I doubt if anything that I write will outlast me, but some of you are good enough to make the leap...so do so.

My claim to fame? That other site stole my work. LOL. Didn't bother me, but my spouse was incensed. I will take that. The only fan I care about fought for me on Christmas!