Doms have it easy. (Or what’s a sub to do?)

[Ishmael]

I was just reflecting back and began to think about the practices, why some are drawn to it, and where does it all lead?

Dom(mes), all Dom(mes), have a repertoire. Things they’ll do, things they won’t do. (At least those intelligent to know the consequences of doing something you don’t have a clue about.) As an example, wizard does full suspensions. I would never try that without first watching someone like wizard, and then having him watch me. The consequences of fucking something like that up are just too dire. I’d expand my repertoire to that scene if I had the opportunity to learn how to apply it properly. Some Dom(mes) will take the time to expand their horizons, others won’t. They are quite comfortable with the range of skills they currently posses and are fully satisfied with same. (Some will try anything even if they don’t have a clue as to what they’re doing or the consequences. But that’s another thread.)

So the Dom has only to do what he/she does best. The broader the repertoire, the longer interest is held.

But what about the sub? Particularly the adventurous sub. Obviously he/she can shop Dom(mes) to satisfy any kink. The ‘hard limits’ become softer as the desire for the new and different take hold. It seems to me that it can (please note the use of that word. I’m not intimating that it always does.) lead to the same syndrome that effects adrenaline junkies. That the end of the line for these subs is either real damage, or real boredom. A Pavlovian search for faster, deeper, entry into sub-space. Instant gratification as it were.

I suspect that every Dom(mes) has met this sort before and to one extent or the other observed the consequences of the subs search for satisfaction.

And what of you subs that are searching now? Or you subs that have seen this in other subs? Or you that found your level of kink?

Ishmael

 

[catalina_francisco]

I can see it happening in casual play, but for us the fact we have a deep relationship on which we base all we do, those things we loved in the beginning are still just as thrilling 5 years later, and the new things we do or aim toward were on the list of things we intended doing before we even got together.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

I've only encountered this, well, primarily encountered this when I was a pro among clients. I don't think they're the same as non-client subs. I think people who are trying to condense as much kink into as short a time as possible are prone to this, in my marriage, I find actually that I'm re-evaluating and revisiting really basic and simple activities with renewed interest and intensity.

 

[Ishmael]

I can see it happening in casual play, but for us the fact we have a deep relationship on which we base all we do, those things we loved in the beginning are still just as thrilling 5 years later, and the new things we do or aim toward were on the list of things we intended doing before we even got together.

Catalina

Are you speaking for all when you use 'us' and 'we'? I've seen as many exceptions as I have the rule you're speaking of. I know that wiz and his lady have it together, as do some others. But I've watched the 'crash and burns' too, many in this very forum.

I don't dispute your statement as long as you aren't trying to speak for all.

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

I've only encountered this, well, primarily encountered this when I was a pro among clients. I don't think they're the same as non-client subs. I think people who are trying to condense as much kink into as short a time as possible are prone to this, in my marriage, I find actually that I'm re-evaluating and revisiting really basic and simple activities with renewed interest and intensity.

And that is exactly my point. Thrill seekers as opposed to making a commitment.

Ishmael

 

[Netzach]

And that is exactly my point. Thrill seekers as opposed to making a commitment.

Ishmael

Yeah. But I don't think you can assume anyone's course of development. I also played with a lot of clients who'd been around that block, and who really wanted to connect with the right pro and leave it to me, and experience the session as an opportunity to serve me rather than an experience they could buy off a menu. That was different, but almost all those people had passed *through* a more-harder-more phase.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Are you speaking for all when you use 'us' and 'we'? I've seen as many exceptions as I have the rule you're speaking of. I know that wiz and his lady have it together, as do some others. But I've watched the 'crash and burns' too, many in this very forum.

I don't dispute your statement as long as you aren't trying to speak for all.

Ishmael

Um, no, I was speaking of 'us' and 'we' as in ourselves and our personal relationship...didn't imagine it could be taken for a blanket statement given what I wrote.

Catalina

 

[Ishmael]

Um, no, I was speaking of 'us' and 'we' as in ourselves and our personal relationship...didn't imagine it could be taken for a blanket statement given what I wrote.

Catalina

Didn't assume so. I was just making sure. Never hurts to ask.

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

Yeah. But I don't think you can assume anyone's course of development. I also played with a lot of clients who'd been around that block, and who really wanted to connect with the right pro and leave it to me, and experience the session as an opportunity to serve me rather than an experience they could buy off a menu. That was different, but almost all those people had passed *through* a more-harder-more phase.

Yup. Very understandable. What about the ones that kept going? (And I admit, that's not quite a fair quesiton in that you probably never knew what happened to them.)

What was your attitude towards those that came back? (And I do understand the 'business is business aspect so that's not a component of the question.)

Ishmael

 

[Netzach]

Yup. Very understandable. What about the ones that kept going? (And I admit, that's not quite a fair quesiton in that you probably never knew what happened to them.)

What was your attitude towards those that came back? (And I do understand the 'business is business aspect so that's not a component of the question.)

Ishmael

Not sure I'm following. I don't really know what happened to the former. I'm assuming that if nothing else, the same fetishes enacted with a different woman each time is one version of the rush, the client of that sort is a "slut" and we like them. They're usually easygoing, memorable, fun, and outta there. They leave a nice memory, metaphorically you never get their smelly socks but you never get to know them well.

As for repeats, some I adored - they really *loved* seeing me smile. End of story. I loved giving them, even for a couple of hours, the flavor of real service, real connection, a chance to learn how I, at least, like things done. These are people who understand you are not paying to polish my shoes for me and sort my mail, you are paying to have the opportunity to revere and to be what you can't otherwise fit into your life to be.

Some were really manipulative pains in the ass who were looking for an elusive slave experience but would never actually have it because they were so hung up on it mentally, so unwilling to just trust the providers' talents, so resentful about the money, so - squirrely. Those are the ones I always fired quickly or passed along to anyone else I could think of - I was never so dependent on my income to want to tango with potentially crazy much.

 

[Ishmael]

Not sure I'm following. I don't really know what happened to the former. I'm assuming that if nothing else, the same fetishes enacted with a different woman each time is one version of the rush, the client of that sort is a "slut" and we like them. They're usually easygoing, memorable, fun, and outta there. They leave a nice memory, metaphorically you never get their smelly socks but you never get to know them well.

As for repeats, some I adored - they really *loved* seeing me smile. End of story. I loved giving them, even for a couple of hours, the flavor of real service, real connection, a chance to learn how I, at least, like things done. These are people who understand you are not paying to polish my shoes for me and sort my mail, you are paying to have the opportunity to revere and to be what you can't otherwise fit into your life to be.

Some were really manipulative pains in the ass who were looking for an elusive slave experience but would never actually have it because they were so hung up on it mentally, so unwilling to just trust the providers' talents, so resentful about the money, so - squirrely. Those are the ones I always fired quickly or passed along to anyone else I could think of - I was never so dependent on my income to want to tango with potentially crazy much.

*chuckle* How many threads are there about that behavior? It's so blatant all you can do is laugh. I just deny them the satisfaction of a response. They move on.

Ishmael

 

[Netzach]

*chuckle* How many threads are there about that behavior? It's so blatant all you can do is laugh. I just deny them the satisfaction of a response. They move on.

Ishmael

This is a really cool conversation, because as apples and oranges as client subs and non client subs are in some ways, you are reminding me it's not THAT different.

 

[Ishmael]

This is a really cool conversation, because as apples and oranges as client subs and non client subs are in some ways, you are reminding me it's not THAT different.

Of course not. It's the seeking of satisfaction in one form or another. Whether paid or not. Actually I think that you, as a pro, were under more pressure to perform to the subs expectations than I. But that's a guess as I have no idea as to how you ran your business.

Either a sub has patience or not. And to reward bad behavior that was engaged in for no other reason than to recieve the satisfaction that the sub was seeking to begin with? Well, who was Pavlovian there?

Anecdotally, my middle brother was a tantrum thrower as a child (sitll is actually). It was for attention, naturally. After about the third bout of this little power play my mother went to the fridge, got the water pitcher out, and calmly poured the contents on my brothers head. Not at all the attention he was seeking. I've always remembered the 'bucket of cold water' technique. Bad behavior shouldn't be rewarded in any form.

Ishmael

 

[catalina_francisco]

Bad behavior shouldn't be rewarded in any form.

Ishmael

Oh I can so relate to that!!

Catalina

 

[Softouch911]

Just a thought -- the whole idea of "this," I thought, was 'risk.' Not sure how stagnation is the sort of risk I'd enjoy and not sure why anyone would manage to stay forever on firm ground without yawning themselves to death.

Yes, an excellent discussion to listen in on.

Respectfully,
ST

 

[Ishmael]

Just a thought -- the whole idea of "this," I thought, was 'risk.' Not sure how stagnation is the sort of risk I'd enjoy and not sure why anyone would manage to stay forever on firm ground without yawning themselves to death.

Yes, an excellent discussion to listen in on.

Respectfully,
ST

If the scene is pre-agreed to and the safe words in place, where is the risk?

But in a way you make my point for me.

Ishmael

 

[Netzach]

Just a thought -- the whole idea of "this," I thought, was 'risk.' Not sure how stagnation is the sort of risk I'd enjoy and not sure why anyone would manage to stay forever on firm ground without yawning themselves to death.

Yes, an excellent discussion to listen in on.

Respectfully,
ST

Sure, but sometimes emotional transparency *is* the risk. More so than the physical part, more so than even "obeying."

 

[Ishmael]

Sure, but sometimes emotional transparency *is* the risk. More so than the physical part, more so than even "obeying."

Good point.

Ishmael

 

[Softouch911]

If the scene is pre-agreed to and the safe words in place, where is the risk?

But in a way you make my point for me.

Ishmael

Good. I meant to.

ST

 

[Netzach]

Of course not. It's the seeking of satisfaction in one form or another. Whether paid or not. Actually I think that you, as a pro, were under more pressure to perform to the subs expectations than I. But that's a guess as I have no idea as to how you ran your business.

Either a sub has patience or not. And to reward bad behavior that was engaged in for no other reason than to recieve the satisfaction that the sub was seeking to begin with? Well, who was Pavlovian there?

Anecdotally, my middle brother was a tantrum thrower as a child (sitll is actually). It was for attention, naturally. After about the third bout of this little power play my mother went to the fridge, got the water pitcher out, and calmly poured the contents on my brothers head. Not at all the attention he was seeking. I've always remembered the 'bucket of cold water' technique. Bad behavior shouldn't be rewarded in any form.

Ishmael

There are a lot of ways to approach that business. Mine was either

1. I am very much your friendly educational easygoing top, tell me what you like, and provided nothing actively repulses me or I'm not skilled in it, let's go.
(The Dominance factor is debateable, basically a service top who's very good at coordinating the scene)

2. You will make your hard limits known, walk through that door and love whatever happens to you.

I know pros who only do 1. or 2. - that would drive me nuts. I had to balance light and friendly perv with dark and demanding Bitch for my own gratification. Worked well. Still does in my personal life.

 

[Ishmael]

There are a lot of ways to approach that business. Mine was either

1. I am very much your friendly educational easygoing top, tell me what you like, and provided nothing actively repulses me or I'm not skilled in it, let's go.
(The Dominance factor is debateable, basically a service top who's very good at coordinating the scene)

2. You will make your hard limits known, walk through that door and love whatever happens to you.

I know pros who only do 1. or 2. - that would drive me nuts. I had to balance light and friendly perv with dark and demanding Bitch for my own gratification. Worked well. Still does in my personal life.

Again, I don't envy you. But I do have to admire the skill required to balance that sheet.

I prefer slow progressions. Not being under any time constraint I can afford myself that pleasure. For indeed, that's what pleasures me. It provides both parties a sense of anticipation. At least that's my thought. To me it's the difference between being part of building the roller coaster as opposed to buying a ticket or two and then getting the map to the next amusement park out.

But, as we've already discussed, there are those that want it "NOW." In a sense I think they're closet Dommes (in my gender sense) unwilling to (1.) take that step because they're too lazy, and unwilling to (2.) put forth the effort. Buying tickets is so much faster.

Ishmael

 

[Netzach]

Again, I don't envy you. But I do have to admire the skill required to balance that sheet.

I prefer slow progressions. Not being under any time constraint I can afford myself that pleasure. For indeed, that's what pleasures me. It provides both parties a sense of anticipation. At least that's my thought. To me it's the difference between being part of building the roller coaster as opposed to buying a ticket or two and then getting the map to the next amusement park out.

But, as we've already discussed, there are those that want it "NOW." In a sense I think they're closet Dommes (in my gender sense) unwilling to (1.) take that step because they're too lazy, and unwilling to (2.) put forth the effort. Buying tickets is so much faster.

Ishmael

*nods*
Patience is good. I'm Dominant but flexible with a certain lover, after about 8 years to acclimate to the idea. What's interesting is that when you're dragging your feet every second by the time the line is up and you can actually get on the ride, you just want to get on it and not fight it anymore. I detect whiffs of that controlling pain in the assness in myself and I correct them as quickly as I'd want mine to do it. I'm sure he'll have to pull me up short at some juncture, but I'm kind of scaring myself at how good I am. I don't mean that in a little jack horner kind of way, even though it sounds like that.

 

[Ishmael]

*nods*
Patience is good. I'm Dominant but flexible with a certain lover, after about 8 years to acclimate to the idea. What's interesting is that when you're dragging your feet every second by the time the line is up and you can actually get on the ride, you just want to get on it and not fight it anymore. I detect whiffs of that controlling pain in the assness in myself and I correct them as quickly as I'd want mine to do it.

There ya go. Disney came up with this concept of the 'fast pass.' It's a way of buying yourself around the line. Some pay the money, some find other techniques. Never bought into the 'fast pass' concept. I figured if the line was that long, the ride was worth waiting for.

But we're right back to the patience quotient again.

Ishmael

 

[Netzach]

There ya go. Disney came up with this concept of the 'fast pass.' It's a way of buying yourself around the line. Some pay the money, some find other techniques. Never bought into the 'fast pass' concept. I figured if the line was that long, the ride was worth waiting for.

But we're right back to the patience quotient again.

Ishmael

I misrepresented that, now that I think about it. At 26 I was super switch - and I remember being SO FRUSTRATED that he wouldn't (fill in the blank) That wasn't the only reason I had to switch and play on the other side of the fence with him, but I had a large shift in that direction - didn't want to submit to anyone other than him, he wasn't Dominating me the way my brain mapped it out as a fantasy, he sure made a great bottom and lover though.

NOW, take 2, totally different.

My point is that today's adrenaline junkie may be something else later.

 

[Ishmael]

I misrepresented that, now that I think about it. At 26 I was super switch - and I remember being SO FRUSTRATED that he wouldn't (fill in the blank) That wasn't the only reason I had to switch and play on the other side of the fence with him, but I had a large shift in that direction - didn't want to submit to anyone other than him, he wasn't Dominating me the way my brain mapped it out as a fantasy, he sure made a great bottom and lover though.

NOW, take 2, totally different.

My point is that today's adrenaline junkie may be something else later.

I think I allowed for that as well in my opening post.

I also think there are some that are so reckless they'll end up in a snuff flick. Not stupid, reckless. And impatient.

But let's launch off of that point. What has a Dom(mes) to teach one who's bought their way through everything the menu has to offer?

Ishmael