Dom or no Dom?

[Never]

If you dominate someone only because of the pleasure it gives them, aren't you really submitting to them?

And yes, I am asking because of a specific situation in my life.
~edit~

Forgive me for not being clear: a *past* situation. We broke up some time ago and I'm still wondering.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

If you dominate someone only (emphasis added by E_G) because of the pleasure it gives them, aren't you really submitting to them?

If that's the only fricking reason, then yes, it would be a case of submission.

However, no one who dominates another solely for that reason can maintain the role for great lengths of time.

Do not confuse domination with topping. One is a mental/emotional orientation, the other is a physical one. Many submissives are quite good at topping, with being the physically active partner in a scene, capable of inflicting pain or stimulation to their dominant partner or others.

Dominants, on the other hand, emotionally and spiritually need to be in control of the relationship, or at least certain aspects of it. If they don't crave that control, if they don't need it, they are not "Dominants".

Which is why we have different terms for Tops and Dominants and Owners. While it is quite possible for one person to hold all these traits, it is certainly not required.

 

[shy slave]

This is something I have thought of many times before without actually finding a complete answer.

I like EG description of the differences between 'topping' and 'Dom' but that would make me more of a Dom than a top.

I do like being in control of situations and relationships, submission is not easy for me; but I do love to be controlled. It gives me a sense of freedom.
I cannot ever imagine wanting to inflict physical pain on another person. The idea abhors me.
I have been told I should be a Domme, but that is by people who have never seen me submit; nor been in my head and realised the depth of my need to submit.

There is a couple who sometimes attend the munch. He is the sub and she is an unwilling Domme.
She does it because it gives him pleasure (actually I think he is a whining moron whon will never be happy, but I digress), she works hard to overcome her revulsion at Domming him. There are aspects she enjoys, the fetish clothing for example, but she does not enjoy his submission or thinking of ways to get him to submit.
In their case I see it very much as the submissive being in control, he tells her what he wants and how he wants it, she does it.
Another couple I know have recently switched, she is now Domme and he sub. This is not a relationship where it will move back and forth, the aim is to them remain in those roles. The only way I can see it is that she is submitting to his will by topping him.
I use the word top and not Dom deliberately because it is within the bedroom only, they have an LDR and he is married so there is little opportunity to expand into other ways of Domination.

I have never understood my own submission, I know its a big part of me that I need. I would not be happy in a situation where he only made me submit to please me.
Boundaries would never be pushed, levels of D/s never explored and ultimately the relationship could stagnate. my limits and thoughts have changed so much in the past 16 months, if it was only about pleasing me, nothing would be different.
How can I say I would be happy? How would I know what I was missing?
Whatever works for people, works. But if one of them is not happy in the given role then there needs to be discussion.
We are lucky that he can control me, he does push me and there are things we do not do not always please me. BUT I want to please him, so I push through the bitching and discover he is right to push me further than I wished to go initially.

Its an interesting question though never, I look forward to other peoples views.
I admit to hoping that one or two people in particular respond.
(I may even send a pm with a link to this thread in the hope they do).

 

[AngelicAssassin]

... only ...

You get nothing out of this in return?

 

[CutieMouse]

I must say there is a delicious pleasure to be found in pushing buttons and making people whimper...

If one enjoys pushing, for the sake of witnessing (and causing) another's pain/pleasure, who cares about the labels (Domming/subbing) BS?

 

[Never]

Evil Geoff:
" However, no one who dominates another solely for that reason can maintain the role for great lengths of time."

I tend to disagree. I've known submissives that were in positions of authority in their jobs. That's 40 hours a day for several years, more time than most people spend with their S/O.

" Do not confuse domination with topping. One is a mental/emotional orientation, the other is a physical one. Many submissives are quite good at topping, with being the physically active partner in a scene, capable of inflicting pain or stimulation to their dominant partner or others."

I'm not confusing the two. Sexually, I'm talking light bondage and a bit of spanking. The domination I'm thinking of is constantly choosing what she does, where she goes, what she eats, what she wears, and giving her various duties like cleaning, laundry, ordering for me when we go out, etc.

"Dominants, on the other hand, emotionally and spiritually need to be in control of the relationship, or at least certain aspects of it. If they don't crave that control, if they don't need it, they are not "Dominants."

So, you're saying the difference is that a dominant *needs* that level of control wherein I just have a knack for it?


shy slave:
" She does it because it gives him pleasure (actually I think he is a whining moron whon will never be happy, but I digress), she works hard to overcome her revulsion at Domming him. There are aspects she enjoys, the fetish clothing for example, but she does not enjoy his submission or thinking of ways to get him to submit.

In their case I see it very much as the submissive being in control, he tells her what he wants and how he wants it, she does it."

Revulsion? No, no revulsion on my part.

I wouldn't call K whiny or a moron. I would never date someone I considered a whiny moron.

" I admit to hoping that one or two people in particular respond."
May I ask whom?

Angelic Assassin:
" You get nothing out of this in return?"

I wouldn't say nothing. It has good points and bad - just like most relationships.
Yes, it's pleasant to have someone who's trying their best to please me but I'm fairly low maintenance by nature. I'm glad she thought highly enough of me to give me so much control over her actions and activities.

I'm just wondering if this could really be called "dominating".

 

[Never]

CutieMouse:
"I must say there is a delicious pleasure to be found in pushing buttons and making people whimper... "

Maybe.

"If one enjoys pushing, for the sake of witnessing (and causing) another's pain/pleasure, who cares about the labels (Domming/subbing) BS?"

I've never caused her any pain; she's not a masochist.

Obviously, I care or I wouldn't have started the thread.

 

[CutieMouse]

CutieMouse:
"I must say there is a delicious pleasure to be found in pushing buttons and making people whimper... "

Maybe.

"If one enjoys pushing, for the sake of witnessing (and causing) another's pain/pleasure, who cares about the labels (Domming/subbing) BS?"

I've never caused her any pain; she's not a masochist.

Obviously, I care or I wouldn't have started the thread.

I am a masochist, so I threw pain in there, my apologies.

I don't mean "who cares" in an insensitive way... I mean "who cares" in terms of why get hung up on the formal definitions of who is Dom and who is sub? This is exactly why I view things in terms of being Lovers (the more accepted term these days appears to be "switch), rather than Dominant/submissive. Identify yourself as the Queen of England for all I care... but do so with your Lover's heart, mind, soul, and needs in mind- just as she hopefully would with you.

 

[Never]

CutieMouse:
I agreed with what you were saying but I wanted to clarify our relationship.

I don't think you were being insensitive.

I think labels are only as important as we make them. They're part of our identity; "Lovers" is a label as well. Just like you can ask, what does it *mean* to be a lover, I'm exploring the question of what it *means* to be a dominant.

In this particular relationship, I fulfilled a dominant role and I was good at it. Still, my motivation was letting her act out her submissive nature. If I had been with a non-submissive partner, I wouldn't have been interested in that role.

 

[CutieMouse]

CutieMouse:
I agreed with what you were saying but I wanted to clarify our relationship.

I don't think you were being insensitive.

I think labels are only as important as we make them. They're part of our identity; "Lovers" is a label as well. Just like you can ask, what does it *mean* to be a lover, I'm exploring the question of what it *means* to be a dominant.

In this particular relationship, I fulfilled a dominant role and I was good at it. Still, my motivation was letting her act out her submissive nature. If I had been with a non-submissive partner, I wouldn't have been interested in that role.

Ah... that makes much more sense.

I'm not quite sure the answer to the question. I am honestly not all that spectacular of a Top/Domme/switch... damn I miss it; I'm just not all that *good* at it. I chose to ignore the label, and focus on my Lover's pleasure... must say though, as less-than-fabulous at it as I am, I'm not sure I'd enter a relationship again, as only a submissive. (I mean only in the sense of 100% submissive, not in the sense of less than, of course.)

 

[Jailhouse]

It reminds me of this joke I heard once: A Sadist and Masochist get together and the Masochist says "Beat me!" and the Sadist says "No... and the Masochist says "Thank you".

Why is that joke funny? Because it underlines a ridiculous thing which is half dogma, half mathematical formula that people who are into BDSM tend to do way too much of.

Just dominate her if that's what you're both into and stop worryiing about whether or not all the other Doms are going to find out you're secretly making her happy by doing so.

 

[Netzach]

I think that it's kind of natural to react to your partner and their likes. I don't do what my husband wants all the time, but I find that he has responses to things I do that intensify my enjoyment, so I do those things more consciously and there's a kind of a feedback loop.

Sometimes it's more work than I want to make all the decisions. So I don't. That's the prerogative I have, as I see it.

I would not be happy in a relationship where I never had control, power, and say-so if and when I want it. Likewise I would never be happy in a relationship where my chosen expressions of Dominance were considered "mandatory" or the only reason I was desired.

 

[RJMasters]

If you dominate someone only because of the pleasure it gives them, aren't you really submitting to them?

And yes, I am asking because of a specific situation in my life.
~edit~

Forgive me for not being clear: a *past* situation. We broke up some time ago and I'm still wondering.

I'll take a swing at this, though I may not hit a full answer I might provide some fringe insight.

I think in most relationships, someone will take the lead if no one does. This is quite different than wanting the job, but often takes the job in order to bring some kind of balance to the relationship.

In the case you presented, you have two submissives. One submissive is topping from the bottom by making the request or demand, the other submissive dominate them. For whatever reason, if the other person complys with the request/demand, they are allowing themselves to be topped from the bottom.

I think that this type of situation can be highly unsatisfying for either of the two involved. The one who is making the request or demand is a submissive, and because they are actually in control...they do not really have their submissive needs met. They know deep down that the other person is only doing what they are doing because they have asked them to. Now, the submissive taking the role of the top in the relationship, may do so with the idea that they are submitting, but while in the role, most their submissive needs are being neglected.

I think there is a difference between how one may be in their work...and get paid to do that work in the manner they do...and getting personal needs met within the context of a relationship. Yes it is possible to hold down a job for years 40+ hours a week in this way, but that is in large part due being require to do so, to pay rent, buy food...etc... I think you have to look at relationships from a personal level as to the satisfaction it brings. In the case you described, it is not hard to see that nether people are really getting their needs met. Often people cannot remain unfulfilled at a personal level for very long. I think that is what Geoff meant when he said they would not be able to play the role of a top for very long.

People do choose to remain in uncompatible and unsatisfying relationships for many reasons, and sometimes they part ways.

Though I may not have answered your question fully, I hope that somewhere in there is something useful to chew on or mull over.

 

[Never]

I never found our relationship incompatible or unsatisfying.

I'll have to ask her what her feelings were.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

CutieMouse:
If I had been with a non-submissive partner, I wouldn't have been interested in that role.

By my definitions then, you would be a top, not a dominant. Your motivation is based on what your partner wants/needs, not on your own desire to be in control of the relationship. Dominant is not about what you do, it's about who you are. Within your relationship.

What happens at work, or outside the relationship, with family or friends, being in charge or what not, has nada to do with the relationship dynamic. You could be a Fortune 500 exec, cut-throat, ruthless, absolutely take charge at work. Come home, strip off the power suit and drop to your knees to submit to the needs of your partner, to release control and serve their pleasure. Or vice versa... at work you could be in a position of little or no power or authority, but come home, and command your slave to strip, prepare your favorite meal, put soothing music on, fix your favorite libation, or what have you. Sometimes the D/s roles correspond with the public persona, sometimes they are 180 degrees about face.

What I was meaning is that a person who has no desire to be "in charge" in the relationship, will not be happy in that role all the time. They can take it and run with it for a time, but they will, at some point, have to let it go if it is not a need that comes from within.

There's nothing wrong at all with how you and a partner structure your relationship, how it works, what gets the both of you hot and happy and whatever. But you asked:

If you dominate someone only because of the pleasure it gives them, aren't you really submitting to them?

And my original answer stands. If that's the ONLY reason for "dominating" them, then you are, in fact, submitting. Like RJ said.

 

[shy slave]

Hi Never

Reading your response to my initial post I hope you don't think my comments on that particular couple were a blanket base on all couples. That was not what I meant at all.

The male sub in question really is a 'me, me, me , me, me' man. He doesn't seem to grasp how hard she works to please him. He simply complains about it. She has paid for him to see a professional Domme at least three times and even after that he complained saying the Domme was not as he expected. Therefore in his case it is the submissive in charge unless you want a barrel full of complaint. He drove me crazy with his attitude and I now avoid him. I have told him my views but he sulked and said 'No-one understood him' *sigh*
As for her, yes she has described it as 'revulsion' but she loves him. She will do anything to make him happy.

My topping or Domming another person has been discussed between he and I. It is not something he wants to explore at present and I am glad of that. Its not a place I want my mind or head space to go.

I for one like labels, as they give an idea of where someones thoughts are, but due to such subjectivity of words like 'topping,' 'submissive' etc I think they need to be explored as to what they mean to each other.

I still believe whatever works between you, works. Whatever its called and for whatever reason. If it makes you both happy its ok, if it doesn't talking together is the quickest way to working out why.

As for people I would like to see post, well some have some have not lol

 

[Ebonyfire]

If that's the only fricking reason, then yes, it would be a case of submission.

However, no one who dominates another solely for that reason can maintain the role for great lengths of time.

Do not confuse domination with topping. One is a mental/emotional orientation, the other is a physical one. Many submissives are quite good at topping, with being the physically active partner in a scene, capable of inflicting pain or stimulation to their dominant partner or others.

Dominants, on the other hand, emotionally and spiritually need to be in control of the relationship, or at least certain aspects of it. If they don't crave that control, if they don't need it, they are not "Dominants".

Which is why we have different terms for Tops and Dominants and Owners. While it is quite possible for one person to hold all these traits, it is certainly not required.

You said it better than I could.

Eb

 

[Ebonyfire]

I never found our relationship incompatible or unsatisfying.

I'll have to ask her what her feelings were.

But that's the beauty of things. If you both are happy, and you both are satisfied, then it does not matter what outsiders think.

Eb

 

[s_red830]

If you dominate someone only because of the pleasure it gives them, aren't you really submitting to them?

And yes, I am asking because of a specific situation in my life.
~edit~

Forgive me for not being clear: a *past* situation. We broke up some time ago and I'm still wondering.

Indeed, that's one of the ways that I think about it. I do it partly for my own benefit, but mostly for the sub's. And yes, it's a nice little paradox there, but I don't mind. :shrugs: I'm an empath, for the most part.

Edited to add: I do enjoy being a Dominate, but my area of enjoyment is mostly in the mental realm. I find it much more effective than dominating someone with pain only. So if my sub wants pain, or if she's a painslut, I don't have a problem with making an excuse to give it to her... tit for tat, ya know?

 

[SpectreT]

Interesting stuff here.

I'll ask a couple of revealing questions (revealing in the sense that they should show something about my thoughts, here)

First off: Was it truly only about them? (in other words, was your enjoyment a selfless one? Or did you get something out of it beyond enjoying their enjoyment?)

Second: Was it your energy and imagination in the scenario, or were you channeling her fantasies?

Third: Did your reactions/thoughts/emotions give you a Dominant or submissive vibe?

I ask, because I had to ask myself those questions once. Then I recognized a pattern in my behavior and reactions. To strongly dominant types, I become more submissive. To submissive types, I become more dominant. I'm not the "Alpha Dom", and I'm not the "Omega sub", either. I just find my spot relative to theirs.

My answers to those questions were, 1) No. I had a lot of fun coming up with things to do and ways to play. 2) See #1. It was my energy and imagination. 3) My reactions, thoughts and emotions were not submissive, though they were focused on her. I'd had submissive thoughts, emotions, and reactions before, so I knew it wasn't them.

 

[Never]

Evil Geoff:
" What I was meaning is that a person who has no desire to be "in charge" in the relationship, will not be happy in that role all the time. They can take it and run with it for a time, but they will, at some point, have to let it go if it is not a need that comes from within.?

I have to disagree with you. I was as happy in my role in that relationship as I have been in other relationships I've had. She wanted something; I provided it. Was this ideal from my perspective? No, but I've never found compromising difficult and am somewhat skeptical about the existence of ideal relationships.

I believe our difference of opinion lies in you seeing relationship traits regarding power balance as 'needs' and me seeing them as 'wants.' I *need* honestly, understanding, and loyalty. I also *need* my partner to be happy therefore I seek out actions that promote their happiness. Whether their happiness takes the form of me deciding what they eat every night or being tied to their bedpost is immaterial.

I understand the power balance in a relationship is important to you and that you would be unhappy in a relationship with a balance you disliked. I'm not you. Whether I'm in charge or not isn't an issue.

shy slave:
" Reading your response to my initial post I hope you don't think my comments on that particular couple were a blanket base on all couples. That was not what I meant at all."

I didn't believe you were making a blanket statement. I was simply clarifying.

" I for one like labels, as they give an idea of where someones thoughts are, but due to such subjectivity of words like 'topping,' 'submissive' etc I think they need to be explored as to what they mean to each other."

I think labels simply bare the brunt of abstraction's flaws. It's important to explore what a label means both in private and public discourse.

Ebonyfire:
" But that's the beauty of things. If you both are happy, and you both are satisfied, then it does not matter what outsiders think."

I mostly agree with that. The trouble is that outsiders aren't really outsiders. It's impossible to step into the bedroom without bringing one's community along.

That said, I was happy with the relationship now and I still am. This thread wasn't intended to be a gasping plea to the BDSM board for acceptance or some such. It hadn't occurred to me that it would appear that way.

My question was more about what Evil Geoff was talking about: whether dominance is what we do or why we do it.

Given that submissiveness and dominance are social phenomena, I don't see a difference between dominant "posturing" and being dominant. Others may agree or disagree and I thought my situation would be a good jumping off point for discussion.

Spectre:
"First off: Was it truly only about them? (in other words, was your enjoyment a selfless one? Or did you get something out of it beyond enjoying their enjoyment?)"

Was the relationship only about her? No. She was a wonderful friend, companion, and lover. Being with her always a pleasure. And her body was all sort of hot.

Was this aspect of the relationship the way it was because she craved it? Yes.

" Second: Was it your energy and imagination in the scenario, or were you channeling her fantasies?"

What scenario? When it came to BDSM in bed, she wasn't very interested. She liked to be tied down and for me to be rough with her. That's about it. I had her do some things that were mildly humiliating in a sexual way but it didn't seem as though her enjoyment of that was sexual.

I put my energy and imagination into all my relationships. I mostly imagined how a good dominant would talk and behave and tried to express myself that way.

" Third: Did your reactions/thoughts/emotions give you a Dominant or submissive vibe?"

I don't categorize my thoughts and emotions that way. What emotions have a dominant vibe? What thoughts?

 

[Marquis]

Doesn't sound like you have any misunderstandings about what was going on in this relationship. What difference do meaningless labels make?

 

[Ebonyfire]

[
I mostly agree with that. The trouble is that outsiders aren't really outsiders. It's impossible to step into the bedroom without bringing one's community along.

I do not subscribe to the community view. I do not have a community, so I do not identify that way. So I do not understand your statement. I think that if there are two people conducting their own private business in the bedroom, then what goes on there is their business. What they have going on in their heads is also their business.

That said, I was happy with the relationship now and I still am. This thread wasn't intended to be a gasping plea to the BDSM board for acceptance or some such. It hadn't occurred to me that it would appear that way.

Also my statement had nothing to do with a plea to the BDSM Board for acceptance. I was posting my opinion, my own thoughts. That is all I ever do.
Eb

My question was more about what Evil Geoff was talking about: whether dominance is what we do or why we do it.

That went over my head.

Eb