Doing away with categories?

[Voboy]

I find this a very odd statement, particularly because 'as a reader' I never use categories and always use tags.

Perhaps if you shared some of your reasons it might help.

"Very odd?"

Dude, I'm just answering your question. "Is there interest?"

No. Decidedly not from me. And, apparently, not from several others either.

My reasons are that I've learned during almost two decades here which categories I'm likely to enjoy reading, and which I am not. For writing? Same. I've learned the vagaries of the categories. I occasionally do use tags, and here's the thing: the tags get me close. The categories let me choose from among dozens and dozens of tagged stories.

They are a tool I use. Probably many, many others use them too. You don't, but the site doesn't exist to cater to you. You want to do away with them... why? You've made no argument that strikes me as even remotely compelling.

Hope that satisfies your curiosity.

 

[gunhilltrain]

That's the problem with tags. The author types in whatever they choose to type, even with spelling errors.

That's the least of the problem. There are spelling errors in the stories too.

 

[Trionyx]

If an author misspells a tag, it will never be found. There are also tags that are rarely used and if a reader doesn’t know about them, those tags will also be unlikely to be found.
Comments about how some stories could easily be in two categories are noted. I wouldn’t be opposed to a system whereby an author could appeal to Laurel for a story to be logged under two categories though I’m sure the additional work she‘d need to do to achieve this would be a deal killer.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Has it ever been tried?

Say that there was an overwhelming interest from the (vocally active, anyway) authors to instigate a change, and such a proposal was taken to Laurel, one would think that it would be at least considered. And possibly even implemented, depending on the work involved.

"Madam, the authors are revolting."

"Then tell them to bathe more often."

 

[TxRad]

For those of you who are new around here, the basics of Lit are locked in stone. Dropping categories for tags is another windmill that will never lose at the joist. The only reason any changes have been made is because Google said if the site wasn't Cell phone compliant it would drop in the search arena. End of argument and conversation.

 

[KeithD]

To this point, with category and tags both in use, we have nearly twenty-five years of stories in the files in which category didn't need to be included in the tags. I have some 1,800 stories here in which I never included a currently used category in the tags because that would have been redundant. For instance, this account of over 400 already-filed stories is mostly Gay Male, yet I have never used Gay Male for any of them as a tag. Those just using tags who don't want to read Gay Male are going to be flipping a whole hell of a lot of stories up they really don't want to start reading.

That said, any day now, the Web site could just drop categories and go with tags. If it does, it won't be because it asked for user opinion on doing that.

 

[RejectReality]

The current tagging is completely author-controlled, and tagging wasn't even a thing when Lit started. There are stories with no tags, stories with auto-generated tags from during the transition, and there's no structure.

Without structure, finding anything via tags is hit and miss at best. Take away the categories to narrow down readers' interests, and it's even worse. It would be disastrous, because there's no way to back-fill the existing database with useful tags. It's simply not viable. The difficulty of finding stories that interest them would cause Lit to lose visitors in droves.

 

[Zenith77]

Is there an interest in a proposal to do away with categories entirely, and have Story Tags the only index?

Seems like a 'no'.

 

[tenyari]

I think it would be a good idea, but only if authors could edit their tags without needing to resubmit.

All existing stories could just have one tag applied that is their current category, and an author could then decide to change that or leave it as is.

 

[Zenith77]

I think it would be a good idea, but only if authors could edit their tags without needing to resubmit.

All existing stories could just have one tag applied that is their current category, and an author could then decide to change that or leave it as is.

Completely agree with this. If Lit ever did move to a tag-based indexing system it would be easy to address some of the challenges like this one (at least theoretically). A swivel towards a tag-based system that a) auto-tagged older stories, b) stream-lined the tagging system, c) allowed authors to make real-time changes to tags d) consolidated/defined tags (e.g. so that non-consent and nonconsent were merged), would, IMO, lead to a more thorough, more functional, process for categorising and thus finding stories, and ultimately an improved experience for the reader.

However, it seems that view is in the minority. C'est la vie.

 

[Emilymcplugger]

Is there an interest in a proposal to do away with categories entirely, and have Story Tags the only index?

This is a ridiculous idea!

How can we do fake songs without categories?

You didn’t think it through did you?

 

[Zenith77]

This is a ridiculous idea!

How can we do fake songs without categories?

You didn’t think it through did you?

I admit I did think of this when I started this thread. But then I thought 'Oh, Emilymcplugger is bright enough to realise we can now do songs about tags instead; he'll love all the opportunity that brings!'.

Alas, disappointment is a part of life.

 

[Emilymcplugger]

I admit I did think of this when I started this thread. But then I thought 'Oh, Emilymcplugger is bright enough to realise we can now do songs about tags instead; he'll love all the opportunity that brings!'.

Alas, disappointment is a part of life.

That literally made me laugh out loud.

 

[nice90sguy]

I've said in other threads that tags are the right way to go. If the site handled them better (for both writers and readers), then the story categories could be left as they are, they're obviously very useful for a lot of people here.

Categories are a particular problem for me because of the obligation to put illustrated stories in that category, which says almost nothing about the expected content for readers.

I'm sure an AI could do a reasonable job of tagging -- as well as doing appropriate recommending based on reader's history.

 

[Zenith77]

I'm sure an AI could do a reasonable job of tagging -- as well as doing appropriate recommending based on reader's history.

Nice point. The future of Lit right there.

 

[SimonDoom]

Here's a thought: To test the idea, it could be made voluntary, going forward, or at least for while as an experiment. Assuming a more robust tag system was developed, along with a more robust way of listing stories on a tag basis, then authors could choose to publish their stories without categorizing them and instead relying on the tag system. Then we could see how the uncategorized stories did compared to the categorized stories.

 

[Zenith77]

Here's a thought: To test the idea, it could be made voluntary, going forward, or at least for while as an experiment. Assuming a more robust tag system was developed, along with a more robust way of listing stories on a tag basis, then authors could choose to publish their stories without categorizing them and instead relying on the tag system. Then we could see how the uncategorized stories did compared to the categorized stories.

It's a possibility, but I think it really needs to be 'one way or the other'.

Anyway, it's a moot point tbh; had there been an overwhelming interest I'd have been happy to take on the task of presenting it, but with this much strong feeling against there's little merit.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Here's a thought: To test the idea, it could be made voluntary, going forward, or at least for while as an experiment. Assuming a more robust tag system was developed, along with a more robust way of listing stories on a tag basis, then authors could choose to publish their stories without categorizing them and instead relying on the tag system. Then we could see how the uncategorized stories did compared to the categorized stories.

I can't see Lit having a chronological split down the middle though, pre Zenith, post Zenith. It's bad enough having a chasm across the Lit Continent with LW, let alone another divide.

I reckon we just have to wait for the promised new tag system, whatever it may look like.

 

[Zenith77]

post Zenith

I wasn't thinking of leaving... was that a hint?

 

[PandemicReader8]

I used the two - tags and categories - almost equally. Start with a tag, see how big the response is, then slice it into managable chunks a category at a time.

 

[Trionyx]

I don’t walk into a bookstore (remember those?) and randomly pick up a book. They certainly don’t put a cookbook between a sci-fi novel and a Civil War history book. They put them in ‘categories’ to guide the customer. LE should do no less.
Once I’ve found the right category, I’ll then read the cover (tags) to see if it is a fusion, an Asian or a TexMex cookbook. The author may put more or less info on the cover depending on their preferences. Same way with tags.
I’m all in favor of cleaning up the tag system but please, please don’t mix the cookbooks in with the bodice rippers and the graphic novels.

 

[SouthernCrossfire]

As a longtime reader?

Getting rid of categories is about the very last thing I would ever want the site to do.

I agree. I rarely look at tags unless I'm looking for a specific story that I've already read or something in a certain genre like medieval, western, mystery, etc., in which I'd like to find new stories.

RobRoy's idea of a second/supplemental category listing might be a good idea that could help some readers and maybe even some writers, though if I have such a case I usually accomplish that with the tags that I personally wouldn't ever read.

 

[yowser]

Whatever any website can do to make it easier for their target group to find what they want is best. Eliminating one path here likely will have a negative impact for readers, and would feel like a retrograde move.

The site's search is fairly primitive, although Advanced Search does have many facets (date, fields, etc) that help narrow things down. A classic division in the field of Information Retrieval involves pre-coordinate vs. post coordinate mechanisms. The first is classical indexing (the categories, pre-defined terms) while post coordinate terms are author generated (tags) or the text itself.

As others have noted, tag inconsistency is an issue, as with any time authors are providing the indexing terms. If you look at the search FAQs, there are some useful things to know that will help you find what you're after. And google, with far more sophisticated index mechanisms, is quite often the best approach, or at least the last resort, when you are trying for the needle-in-the-haystack. Lit's sheer volume of stories poses discovery challenges.

 

[Emilymcplugger]

Whatever any website can do to make it easier for their target group to find what they want is best. Eliminating one path here likely will have a negative impact for readers, and would feel like a retrograde move.

The site's search is fairly primitive, although Advanced Search does have many facets (date, fields, etc) that help narrow things down. A classic division in the field of Information Retrieval involves pre-coordinate vs. post coordinate mechanisms. The first is classical indexing (the categories, pre-defined terms) while post coordinate terms are author generated (tags) or the text itself.

As others have noted, tag inconsistency is an issue, as with any time authors are providing the indexing terms. If you look at the search FAQs, there are some useful things to know that will help you find what you're after. And google, with far more sophisticated index mechanisms, is quite often the best approach, or at least the last resort, when you are trying for the needle-in-the-haystack. Lit's sheer volume of stories poses discovery challenges.

Actually to add my two cents I used to use tags A LOT to find stories, BUT, there’s always gonna be stories you miss that way. Some people use weird tags, especially early on when they used to use a phrase from a story to find it.

Hell, even search doesn’t sometimes find stories with word searches that you feel sure would pinpoint them down.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

These are just my opinions and I know others feel differently:

1) categories are too limiting. Where does bi-sex go? Or what about a story that crosses multiple categories?

I write stories that could have parts posted in varying categories, but since I always wait until the story is completed before posting, I am able to establish what category best fits the "sum of the whole" and remain true to the characters and the overall plot. Lit isn't mainstream publishing, but many authors here would benefit from adopting some of the standards and practices common there. No publisher is going to separate your chapters and publish them in different genres. Figure out what your whole story is about and deal with it.

2) tags are far more accurate a search. Yes, they may be under-utilised in comparison to categories at present, but that doesn't mean the idea is defunct. It would be a simple matter to rank the top 10/20/50/whatever most-used tags, and have them as single-click searches at the top of the search page. This would make it very simple for readers to utilise.

As a reader, I seldom use tags to find a story. I find them too limiting and frequently misleading. As an author, I use tags sparingly, relying upon the category, title, and description as the primary draw for readers.

3) readers and authors benefit from readers able to better hone-in on what they want to read. You may get fewer reads but you'll get a more appreciative audience. Using tags as the primary index would encourage people to select multiple tags to refine the search interests.

I believe that you are painting with too broad of a brush. There are far too many other methods used by readers to find stories for you to be making statements about what the typical reader does. "Similar Story" links, "New Story Lists', following authors; are all methods for readers to find stories that would be totally unaffected by tags.