Does honor and chivalry still exist?

[doormouse]

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[Lord DragonsWing]

[Looking back at the thread before I post this, I realize that I may be stepping in the middle of a mine field. That's not my intent, I don't know and can't judge anything other than what I thought was the conversation at hand. I'm going to toss this up anyway...but do please know that I'm not in any way addressing personal issues.]

I think what you call honor, LDW, I call respect. I'm a westener, so the details of my code are going to be different than yours. I was raised to believe that the first person to a door opens it for everyone else who wants to use it, and they all say thank you. It's less to do with men and women, and more to do with doing the right thing.

But in the end, I think that's all it boils down to. Life is a series of choices, very rarely are they as easy as "right and wrong." But sometimes, you have the chance to smooth another's path through the world. To my mind, chivalry is the choice to make that choice regardless of how much it complicates your life. The default concept, that chivalry is something men extend and women graciously accept may be changing, but in some senses it's because society has made it more possible for us to pay back now. I don't see that as a bad thing, but then again I wouldn't. It was how I was raised .

But while I acknowledge that the world is changing in the details, I don't think the basics are different. As a civil war scholar, LDW, you know that even in that age of honor and chivalry, there were some pretty horrific crimes committed. There are always people willing to commit selfish acts, to take the easy path and make other people's lives harder. That's not new. I don't even know that it's more prevalent. It's just the shape that's changing.

I know good people in my life. I try very hard to be one of them. I hear stories like Luc's friend (who sounded like one of the best, if you're reading Luc....I'm sorry for his loss) or the chap who offered to take the pay cut, and I'm reminded that the good guys are still out there. Doing the best they can by the rules as they understand them. And I smile, because I realize that on some level, the behaviour is contagious. By showing us what the human animal is capable of, they challenge us to live up to their standard. If two people try, their numbers grow. Maybe they'll never tip the balance, but they'll always be there.

The internet? It's a thing. It's a new way to do good, to reach out, to lie, to learn or just to spend time. It may exacerbate certain sorts of problems, but it can't change intent. I've seen it used for good and evil. I can't see that it's changing the game, it's just a new place to play it.

More than my 2cents...

G

You're probably right Ginger. What you call respect I call honor. But to me, as a civil war buff, we accept it as an honor. Maybe it's the individual definition? Do we leave that to society? If a man or woman feels honored doing a job do we tell them they're just doing a job? No, we let them work and hope they accomplish more. lol We are not to tip the balance as you say.

Do you really think the internet is just a thing? I've got friends who've met their loves and married just off of the net. It definitely exacerbates problems between individuals. But that is the individuals problems, not the group on the server. Perhaps they need to re-evaluate their morals and life before causing problems. I'm sure that'll be a discussion someone post later on. But not me. lol

It's an honor to have you here Ginger. I look forward to your post.

 

[doormouse]

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[Lord DragonsWing]

Night everyone. Shall we continue this conversation tomorrow? I find it quite interesting.

 

[oggbashan]

Chivalrous or courteous?

Chivalry was a military trait that respected your enemy and treated the defeated with respect and care, assuming that your opponent was as well born as you are.

It didn't apply to expendable foot soldiers, peasants, the lower classes etc.

Even in medieval times it was a standard to aim for, often 'blessed' by the Church. The Church didn't regard non-Christians as capable of Chivalry, nor deserving to be treated chivalrously. Saladin, the oppoent of Richard the Lionheart behaved more chivalrously than his opponents but he was an infidel so he didn't count. The massacres committed during the Crusades were appalling and the way 'chivalrous' nobles behaved to each other at the time is no example to follow. Most 'nobles' seemed to behave more like Chicago gangsters in the 1930s instead of knights.

There seems to be some confusion with Courtly Love as defined by the Minstrels - the idea that a man could love a woman without consummation and serve her all his life just for a kind word from time to time. That was bullshit then and still is. It is still portrayed in some sentimental love songs.

Courtesy is entirely different. It is intended to make people comfortable with each other and to show respect for others.

I have used my father as an exemplar before. He was confused in his old age by women's lib demands that suggested that when he opened the door for a woman he was demeaning her. So he opened doors for men and women and said 'Thank you' if a man or woman opened a door for him.

He was brought up to stand when a woman entered a room and to remain standing until she sat down. He continued to do that even when the cleaner entered his room in his Old People's Home. (Male or Female cleaner). The cleaner would have to ask him to sit down before he or she could work otherwise my father would remain standing the whole time.

Originally if he was travelling, he would give up his seat to a woman, any woman. In later life he would still give up a seat to an obviously pregnant woman unless she refused to accept his offer - after all he was in his 80s. His example often embarrassed others to the extent that the pregnant woman would get a seat anyway.

He would not have regarded himself as chivalrous - just courteous and polite.

Embarrassing other people is not polite behaviour. Chivalry is irrelevant to modern social interaction but should still be aimed for in war zones - if safe to do so.

Og

 

[rgraham666]

Honour? Yes, I do my best to be honourable. I keep my word. I carry out what I believe are my obligations to the world around me and myself.

Chivalry? I prefer courtesy. Chivalry is an ancient and not very useful code of conduct. Inflexible and thus rather useless.

Courtesy is better.

And the internet has nothing to do with the loss of honourable behaviour. Our society with it's grasping materialism and Darwinian attitude towards society is at the root of this problem.

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

Re: Chivalrous or courteous?

Chivalry was a military trait that respected your enemy and treated the defeated with respect and care, assuming that your opponent was as well born as you are.

It didn't apply to expendable foot soldiers, peasants, the lower classes etc.

Even in medieval times it was a standard to aim for, often 'blessed' by the Church. The Church didn't regard non-Christians as capable of Chivalry, nor deserving to be treated chivalrously. Saladin, the oppoent of Richard the Lionheart behaved more chivalrously than his opponents but he was an infidel so he didn't count. The massacres committed during the Crusades were appalling and the way 'chivalrous' nobles behaved to each other at the time is no example to follow. Most 'nobles' seemed to behave more like Chicago gangsters in the 1930s instead of knights.

There seems to be some confusion with Courtly Love as defined by the Minstrels - the idea that a man could love a woman without consummation and serve her all his life just for a kind word from time to time. That was bullshit then and still is. It is still portrayed in some sentimental love songs.

Courtesy is entirely different. It is intended to make people comfortable with each other and to show respect for others.

I have used my father as an exemplar before. He was confused in his old age by women's lib demands that suggested that when he opened the door for a woman he was demeaning her. So he opened doors for men and women and said 'Thank you' if a man or woman opened a door for him.

He was brought up to stand when a woman entered a room and to remain standing until she sat down. He continued to do that even when the cleaner entered his room in his Old People's Home. (Male or Female cleaner). The cleaner would have to ask him to sit down before he or she could work otherwise my father would remain standing the whole time.

Originally if he was travelling, he would give up his seat to a woman, any woman. In later life he would still give up a seat to an obviously pregnant woman unless she refused to accept his offer - after all he was in his 80s. His example often embarrassed others to the extent that the pregnant woman would get a seat anyway.

He would not have regarded himself as chivalrous - just courteous and polite.

Embarrassing other people is not polite behaviour. Chivalry is irrelevant to modern social interaction but should still be aimed for in war zones - if safe to do so.

Og

Excellent points Og. While your father might consider himself polite I'd say he was chivalrous.
You're right about chivalry in war and how it has evolved. I'd totally forgetten about that.
What would you say for honor?

 

[Liar]

Moral decency, good manners and respectful attitude against all, from all.

Everything else is fluff.

#L

 

[dr_mabeuse]

As far as the net goes, I don't think you can blame that for making people dishonest. An honorable person will be honorable on-line. A person who is dishonest on line was not an honorable person to start with.

---dr.M.

 

[oggbashan]

I think that honour is something you measure inside yourself.

External 'honour' is often an excuse for appalling behaviour to justify what your society requires of you e.g. honour killings of immodest women, enforced suttee by widows, and the code of the vendetta.

Og

 

[mismused]

Wow!

Hopefully, I won't add to most that has been said, but only this:

I've seen you, LDW, and had an admiration for you, though honestly, it's all been quite fleeting as I've not seen enough, nor ever engaged in any conversation with you. Still, you seemed very nice, and mostly, still do.

I've only "talked" with DM less fleetingly than I've noticed you, so I really don't have any "knowledge" of her, nor of this matter.

Here's what I have to wonder about though:

This thing of the heart, the most intimate, personal, depth of the heart, is it really chivalrous and honorable to display, however obliquely, another to the scrutiny of the really wide world we have here? Is it really honorable or chivalrous?

Honestly, I think you've let your pain do the speaking, instead of what may really be your true heart, or soul, or person.

Please reconsider this, but then, hey, I'm only a cyber phantom, and not to be taken seriously. Or am I?

With whatever apologies that may be necessary, I am

Mismused

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I'm probably going to be labeled old-fashioned, but there's certain things I was raised to expect from men. Respect, first of all, above anything else. And, there are certain behaviors - opening doors for me, that type of thing.

I'm of the opinion that if you don't have honor, then you don't have much of anything.

Just my two cents.

I'm with Cloudy on this one, it's also a matter of respect and respect is what most of us want.

I want the door opened or a least held open for me, I think manners are important, I also want to have my chair pushed in and my cigarette lit.

I have been rescued by many a knight who has been there to help me lift something heavy, has offered to help me when my car broke down or stayed with me until help came along.

I believe there are still many good, respectful ,honorable.and kind men out there, many of whom post on these threads.

 

[gauchecritic]

Chivalry (and I really need to point this out again), gallant knights on horse back (chevalier[sp] same root as cavalry) aiding damsels in distress, far from the modern belief was almost wholly invented by the Victorians to dress up a cult of violence.

Enough of that.

The 'modern' sense of being chivalrous towards women holds about as much the same appeal to me as the idea that you should never hit a woman.

Did that come across as less than gentlemanly?

What if I temper it with the question: Is it ok for a man to punch another man? Or stand and watch a catfight?

The idea of Chivalry has always struck me as living by double standards.

I live by those same double standards as it happens, being courteous to ladies, holding open doors, giving up my seat. But thinking about it now I've also realised that (even though I hold a door open for anyone, stop and offer assistance to anyone who I look like I could help) offers of assistance are quicker if that person is perhaps disabled or incapable in some way. Am I (and most other people) equating the 'fairer sex' with disability?

Respect for women should come from how they behave, not that they are women.

As for the internet. It's a communication tool and nothing more.

Gauche

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I don't think women want "chivalry". I think, some of them want a "nice guy" sometimes. But to slap the feaux-gold and pearls of "i am a man of chivalry" in 2004, I think, is sort of shooting one's self in the foot.

Personally, I think just bein' a guy is more important than participating in an outdated ethical process.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Holy fucking shit, was I right. Oh gods, I need to puke right now.

Okay, I'm back. Okay, I sensed the practicality and damn...just damn. I don't want to step in that shit. I'll only repeat what I follow most.

"It's their happiness that matters most. No matter how much it eats away at you. No matter how much the pain wracks through your body. No matter how much you wish to kill yourself, you must keep that thought key. For a loved one, if my death would significantly increase their happiness, I would earnestly consider it. That's what it means to be chivalrous. It means suffering for others all your days. There's all that knight shit, but when it comes down to it, it's all about taking the spears even from behind. How many times was my friend betrayed? Numerous times. How many times have I been betrayed? Enough to become one of the more cynical romantics on the planet. Still, though that doesn't matter. You still do it. Cause as he said: 'Who else will?'"


Now I'm getting out of this relationship quagmire. I'm really no good at that shit. Spectacularly no good some would say (ask my best friend about how I accidentally got his prom date to decide to break up with him afterwards to chase after another guy. Actually don't. He still owes me a punch in the stomach for that fuckup. (hey at least I learned an important lesson about metaphorical advise)).

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I don't think women want "chivalry". I think, some of them want a "nice guy" sometimes. But to slap the feaux-gold and pearls of "i am a man of chivalry" in 2004, I think, is sort of shooting one's self in the foot.

Personally, I think just bein' a guy is more important than participating in an outdated ethical process.

And I disagree. Which means you get laid more, and I...keep alive the memory that should not die.

 

[Guest]

Well, I agree with Gauche and Joe, among others. I want no chivalry of olde, and I do not want to be "revered". I am my only champion. Truth be told I know more chivalric women than men.

Perdita

 

[minsue]

Chivalry (and I really need to point this out again), gallant knights on horse back (chevalier[sp] same root as cavalry) aiding damsels in distress, far from the modern belief was almost wholly invented by the Victorians to dress up a cult of violence.

Enough of that.

The 'modern' sense of being chivalrous towards women holds about as much the same appeal to me as the idea that you should never hit a woman.

Did that come across as less than gentlemanly?

What if I temper it with the question: Is it ok for a man to punch another man? Or stand and watch a catfight?

The idea of Chivalry has always struck me as living by double standards.

I live by those same double standards as it happens, being courteous to ladies, holding open doors, giving up my seat. But thinking about it now I've also realised that (even though I hold a door open for anyone, stop and offer assistance to anyone who I look like I could help) offers of assistance are quicker if that person is perhaps disabled or incapable in some way. Am I (and most other people) equating the 'fairer sex' with disability?

Respect for women should come from how they behave, not that they are women.

As for the internet. It's a communication tool and nothing more.

Gauche

Bravo

How do you always say the right thing? It's spooky as hell

 

[minsue]

Well, I agree with Gauche and Joe, among others. I want no chivalry of olde, and I do not want to be "revered". I am my only champion. Truth be told I know more chivalric women than men.

Perdita

*see above post to Gauche *

Too lazy to type it again

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by perdita
Well, I agree with Gauche and Joe, among others. I want no chivalry of olde, and I do not want to be "revered". I am my only champion. Truth be told I know more chivalric women than men.

Perdita

I'm a very non-chivalric sort of guy. For better or worse.

 

[Guest]

*see above post to Gauche *
Too lazy to type it again

Thanks, Minge. So who do you find spookier, me or Gauche? P.

 

[minsue]

Thanks, Minge. So who do you find spookier, me or Gauche? P.

Ya both scare the hell out of me so I ain't answerin that one

 

[nushu2]

Chivalry is a behaviour pattern that has little to do with intent. I see it as a facade that is used to to increase self esteem and obey external expectations. It is a romantic notion that courteous actions reflect a courteous heart.

I've known too many men that stand on their own pillar of what they called honour, only to raise themselves above the crowd. Many of them collected and counted their good deeds so they could have an excuse to do something wrong and still feel good about themselves

More often, honour is used as a justification. I'm sure that Sadam Hussien considered the genocide under his reign, honourable. It's all in the perspective. Honour is not a black and white term, except in someone's own mind and can be re-interpreted in a flash.

I'm all for living by a code of ethics but I can't be a missionary of my beliefs. Just the opposite, I don't recommend that anyone follows my path. I wouldn't wish my sacrifices on anyone but I wish I could share my rewards.

I live by three simple rules that require vigilance and discipline:

1) Do unto others....
2) My greatest strength is the knowledge of my weakness.
3) My greatest weakness is the belief in my strength.

In other words, I am not a good person and never will be, but I strive to do good.

Congratulations, you now know more about me than my closest friends. Please excuse my self-indulgence but it was the only way I could think of to make my point. Waving a flag of chivalry and honour is personally repugnant but I respect the ideals.

For your own mental health, forget what you just read.

 

[mismused]

Thank you

Chivalry is a behaviour pattern that has little to do with intent. I see it as a facade that is used to to increase self esteem and obey external expectations. It is a romantic notion that courteous actions reflect a courteous heart.

I've known too many men that stand on their own pillar of what they called honour, only to raise themselves above the crowd. Many of them collected and counted their good deeds so they could have an excuse to do something wrong and still feel good about themselves

More often, honour is used as a justification. I'm sure that Sadam Hussien considered the genocide under his reign, honourable. It's all in the perspective. Honour is not a black and white term, except in someone's own mind and can be re-interpreted in a flash.

I'm all for living by a code of ethics but I can't be a missionary of my beliefs. Just the opposite, I don't recommend that anyone follows my path. I wouldn't wish my sacrifices on anyone but I wish I could share my rewards.

I live by three simple rules that require vigilance and discipline:

1) Do unto others....
2) My greatest strength is the knowledge of my weakness.
3) My greatest weakness is the belief in my strength.

In other words, I am not a good person and never will be, but I strive to do good.

Congratulations, you now know more about me than my closest friends. Please excuse my self-indulgence but it was the only way I could think of to make my point. Waving a flag of chivalry and honour is personally repugnant but I respect the ideals.

For your own mental health, forget what you just read.

=======================

many excellent words. I love your rules, especially the last two.

mismused

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Chivalry is a behaviour pattern that has little to do with intent. I see it as a facade that is used to to increase self esteem and obey external expectations. It is a romantic notion that courteous actions reflect a courteous heart.

I've known too many men that stand on their own pillar of what they called honour, only to raise themselves above the crowd. Many of them collected and counted their good deeds so they could have an excuse to do something wrong and still feel good about themselves

More often, honour is used as a justification. I'm sure that Sadam Hussien considered the genocide under his reign, honourable. It's all in the perspective. Honour is not a black and white term, except in someone's own mind and can be re-interpreted in a flash.

I'm all for living by a code of ethics but I can't be a missionary of my beliefs. Just the opposite, I don't recommend that anyone follows my path. I wouldn't wish my sacrifices on anyone but I wish I could share my rewards.

I live by three simple rules that require vigilance and discipline:

1) Do unto others....
2) My greatest strength is the knowledge of my weakness.
3) My greatest weakness is the belief in my strength.

In other words, I am not a good person and never will be, but I strive to do good.

Congratulations, you now know more about me than my closest friends. Please excuse my self-indulgence but it was the only way I could think of to make my point. Waving a flag of chivalry and honour is personally repugnant but I respect the ideals.

For your own mental health, forget what you just read.

Amen. The true road of chivalry is one of pain and a forgotten lonely grave.