Does honor and chivalry still exist?

[minsue]

I agree Rebecca. It is about respect to all. But now when we open a door for a lady we're male chauvinist. The way of the knights were outdated. History even shows their ways were just inconvenient. But for the gray of the south, it was belief. A traditoin. And in the south love and sex are not disconnected. They are one in the same. That is love. But the chivalrous male will always be polite. No matter what happens. We will bow and walk away when our lady finds others to sleep with. We will be honorable and smile as she has her orgasms.

But should we? How much should a gentleman take? How much should we put up with? I'm sorry LC, but you post the ways of chivalry. I respect you. But don't you think they're out of date? Don't you think we should change with the times? I'm sorry. I'm venting. We're out of our time.

I've never resented a man for holding a door for me and I doubt I ever will. I must say, though, that the men who steadfastly refuse to allow me to hold a door for them and instead reach above my head, crowding me in order to do so, and insist I enter first do bother me. To me, that is disrespectful and the only time a man, intending on chivalry, comes across to me as chauvinistic.

As to the rest, LDW, gentleman does not equal doormat and respect is a two way street. Insist upon it and make sure to give it.

(Like Luc, I suck at giving any type of relationship advice and am also sorry for both you and Doormouse that your romance didn't work out as you'd hoped. )

 

[GreenEyedGodess]

I agree Rebecca. It is about respect to all. But now when we open a door for a lady we're male chauvinist. The way of the knights were outdated. History even shows their ways were just inconvenient. But for the gray of the south, it was belief. A traditoin. And in the south love and sex are not disconnected. They are one in the same. That is love. But the chivalrous male will always be polite. No matter what happens. We will bow and walk away when our lady finds others to sleep with. We will be honorable and smile as she has her orgasms.

But should we? How much should a gentleman take? How much should we put up with? I'm sorry LC, but you post the ways of chivalry. I respect you. But don't you think they're out of date? Don't you think we should change with the times? I'm sorry. I'm venting. We're out of our time.

Well perhaps my Mama just raised me differently, but I was taught to expect the door to be opened for me, and that it was rude not to say "thank you" after said deed was done. In fact if the man/boy is not chivalrous when taking me out, he's just killed his chances with me. It's the simple things that make a difference, not what kind of car he drives, or how much money he makes.

 

[Belegon]

I don't think we are out of our time. I agree that it can be a struggle in our age to hold to some of the outer behaviors that have traditionally been seen as chivalrous and honorable.

I certainly have had and am having inner struggles with the way I define such things. But I also think that the struggles will forge a stronger sense of what concepts within these are most important.

LDW, do not simply abandon things. Consider them, certainly. Possibly adapt them? Absolutely. But abandon? Please, no.

If we who still feel that concepts such as honor have importance begin to abandon them, who will defend them?

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

I don't think we are out of our time. I agree that it can be a struggle in our age to hold to some of the outer behaviors that have traditionally been seen as chivalrous and honorable.

I certainly have had and am having inner struggles with the way I define such things. But I also think that the struggles will forge a stronger sense of what concepts within these are most important.

LDW, do not simply abandon things. Consider them, certainly. Possibly adapt them? Absolutely. But abandon? Please, no.

If we who still feel that concepts such as honor have importance begin to abandon them, who will defend them?

I won't abandon. Even though I worry where we stand. But boss, we are the last. I've said that over and over. Our ways are dying. It's more than a struggle. It's something that allows someone to tear your heart apart over years. That's why I question. Right now, I would love to go and be a slut. lol Sorry.

 

[thenry]

Based on previous replies, LDW, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this thread was not begun out of a concern for pure chivalry but your defense of a broken heart. You are not going to get the answers you desire by substituting one for the other.

In general, nothing can happen over the internet that has not and cannot still happen in real life. If you respect a woman you will respect her choices without looking back. Part of the reason for behaving with honor is that if a situation turns out poorly you will have nothing to bitterly regret. You do your ideals dishonor if you regret the consequences and dicisions they led you to.

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

Based on previous replies, LDW, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this thread was not begun out of a concern for pure chivalry but your defense of a broken heart. You are not going to get the answers you desire by substituting one for the other.

In general, nothing can happen over the internet that has not and cannot still happen in real life. If you respect a woman you will respect her choices without looking back. Part of the reason for behaving with honor is that if a situation turns out poorly you will have nothing to bitterly regret. You do your ideals dishonor if you regret the consequences and dicisions they led you to.

Ahhhhhh thanks for the attack thenry. Too bad you don't know the truth. But I will do my ideals honor and not discuss what has happened. Nice bait though. As I said, this post is about honor and chivalry.

 

[Omni]

I think good people have thought about this forever.


Maybe, I'll just be bad.


But when it comes right down to it, we cannot really change our natures.



(On an aside but partially on topic, I had a conversation recently with my very good (lady) friend. An online friend, and the just of it was why we could not take this internet medium that could hide us so well, and play (lie) at being something we are not. It seems honest people even hidden by a screen have a hard time being dishonest. Fancy that when it would be so easy~~.)


Omni

 

[cantdog]

I hate to see chivalry reduced to holding open a fuckin door.

My daughter (born 1977) saw, with her friends, "The Graduate," in which the persistence of the young man wins the girl even from the altar. They hated the ending and said the guy was a stalker, it was creepy.

The perception of this kind of behavior has changed. It seems manipulative, stagy, and bespeaks a person whom it would be hell to live with, and unbendingly stiff person who may believe his exaggerated woman-idealizing entitles him to something.

A perception only, but there it was. We had quite a discussion during and after the movie about it.

Honor is a wider topic. Some people just mean giving their word sparingly because they would feel compelled to redeem it at whatever cost. That would be nice to see more of. But honor, the word, stands for many more things than being true to a promise.

The whole complex of rules of behavior characteristic of bushido is an honor code, and it is again a fairly unpleasant thing to have to live with, characterized by an overblown personal dignity requiring a slight to be wiped out in blood and all that sort of tripe. Who needs a prickly dignity-obsessed murderous morose samurai on her hands?

The Mediterranean honor codes-- Sicilian, Corsican, Arab, Greek-- you've seen them. Once again, the honor code is generally invoked to create blood-feud and it is generally triggered by some affront to dignity of an exaggerated kind, or, more often, by some situation having to do with women. Chivalric woman-idealizing sits well with those codes.

Someone looks upon someone's woman and the honor of the MAN is affected. Women wind up casting down their eyes in the presence of men from outside the family, and segregating themselves or being sequestered to avoid the opportunity for some random slight to occur and trigger some violent response and roosterlike posturing.

Screw all that. Whyt not have a relationship with an equal, on a basis of mutuality? Is true "respect" for women dependent upon challenging anyone they have "looked upon' or vice versa? Need women hide in their own parts of the house, veil themselves all the time if they leave the house, and generally cripple themselves socially because some honor code is hanging over everyone's head like a sword of Damocles?

Isn't everyone better off without all these prickly, bristling honor obsessed guys making their chests stick out and swearing revenge on one another?

Mutuality, respect in both directions, and a life as full as can be had for both parties is surely preferable, especially for the women for whose sake all this elaborate posturing is being undertaken in the first place.

Leave honor confined to the sphere of keeping your word. Lochinvar is a fine fantasy, but that sort of life is actually repressive to women.

But then, I don't get the joy of power games, either. I suppose if people feel fulfilled doing that stuff, let 'em go, but give me a woman who wants to stand on her own and live a free life of self-respect and mutual respect.

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

I think good people have thought about this forever.


Maybe, I'll just be bad.


But when it comes right down to it, we cannot really change our natures.



(On an aside but partially on topic, I had a conversation recently with my very good (lady) friend. An online friend, and the just of it was why we could not take this internet medium that could hide us so well, and play (lie) at being something we are not. It seems honest people even hidden by a screen have a hard time being dishonest. Fancy that when it would be so easy~~.)


Perhaps you're right, we cannot change who we are. But if that is the case do we give up hope on schizophrenics? Do we throw away those with depression? No we don't. We try to help. That is human nature. That is my career as a nurse.

So do you give up on those of us that believe in honor? I'll always open a door for a lady. Is that wrong? From what I've seen no. As long the underarm doesn't interfere at least. lol

So Omni, what is your definition of honor and chivalry? Or do you believe in it at all?




Omni

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

I hate to see chivalry reduced to holding open a fuckin door.

My daughter (born 1977) saw, with her friends, "The Graduate," in which the persistence of the young man wins the girl even from the altar. They hated the ending and said the guy was a stalker, it was creepy.

The perception of this kind of behavior has changed. It seems manipulative, stagy, and bespeaks a person whom it would be hell to live with, and unbendingly stiff person who may believe his exaggerated woman-idealizing entitles him to something.

A perception only, but there it was. We had quite a discussion during and after the movie about it.

Honor is a wider topic. Some people just mean giving their word sparingly because they would feel compelled to redeem it at whatever cost. That would be nice to see more of. But honor, the word, stands for many more things than being true to a promise.

The whole complex of rules of behavior characteristic of bushido is an honor code, and it is again a fairly unpleasant thing to have to live with, characterized by an overblown personal dignity requiring a slight to be wiped out in blood and all that sort of tripe. Who needs a prickly dignity-obsessed murderous morose samurai on her hands?

The Mediterranean honor codes-- Sicilian, Corsican, Arab, Greek-- you've seen them. Once again, the honor code is generally invoked to create blood-feud and it is generally triggered by some affront to dignity of an exaggerated kind, or, more often, by some situation having to do with women. Chivalric woman-idealizing sits well with those codes.

Someone looks upon someone's woman and the honor of the MAN is affected. Women wind up casting down their eyes in the presence of men from outside the family, and segregating themselves or being sequestered to avoid the opportunity for some random slight to occur and trigger some violent response and roosterlike posturing.

Screw all that. Whyt not have a relationship with an equal, on a basis of mutuality? Is true "respect" for women dependent upon challenging anyone they have "looked upon' or vice versa? Need women hide in their own parts of the house, veil themselves all the time if they leave the house, and generally cripple themselves socially because some honor code is hanging over everyone's head like a sword of Damocles?

Isn't everyone better off without all these prickly, bristling honor obsessed guys making their chests stick out and swearing revenge on one another?

Mutuality, respect in both directions, and a life as full as can be had for both parties is surely preferable, especially for the women for whose sake all this elaborate posturing is being undertaken in the first place.

Leave honor confined to the sphere of keeping your word. Lochinvar is a fine fantasy, but that sort of life is actually repressive to women.

But then, I don't get the joy of power games, either. I suppose if people feel fulfilled doing that stuff, let 'em go, but give me a woman who wants to stand on her own and live a free life of self-respect and mutual respect.

Well Doc, I have no bristling honor protrubing from my chest. But thanks anyway for the compliment.

You're right, respect runs in both directions. But does that respect exist today in the cyber world? I respect your opinion and have always looked forward to it. But does it exist or is it part of an extraessential world of self-gratification?

 

[Belegon]

I think "Honor" is a very misused word, and have for quite some time. I do feel that keeping your word is part of it. But I can easily picture events in which the less honorable thing to do would be to keep your word.


I certainly have had and am having inner struggles with the way I define such things. But I also think that the struggles will forge a stronger sense of what concepts within these are most important.


Part of why this statement is so true for me right now is because I am involved within events that are making me question what the meaning of this word and concept are.

My respect for a woman is tied up in my concept of what "chivalrous" means as well. I definitely need for any woman I am interested in as more than a casual friend to be "strong" in ways, and definitely not in direct "need of protection", at least from anything other than direct physical threats.

Yet, though the nature of these concepts is very unsettled within me right now, I still feel that the very idea that there are such concepts and that they are worthwhile is somewhat threatened in our modern world. Of course, it would not surprise me greatly to find words to the same effect in an american civil war soldier's diary. Such questions seem to be timeless.

 

[Omni]

Originally posted by Omni


Perhaps you're right, we cannot change who we are. But if that is the case do we give up hope on schizophrenics? Do we throw away those with depression? No we don't. We try to help. That is human nature. That is my career as a nurse.


(I think you are getting illness and our individual natures crossed here.)



So do you give up on those of us that believe in honor? I'll always open a door for a lady. Is that wrong? From what I've seen no. As long the underarm doesn't interfere at least. lol

(Some people believe in it, expect it, accept it. Some don't. That is what we all look for is to be accepted for who we are and find that person (those people) that appreciate us and compliment our natures.)


So Omni, what is your definition of honor and chivalry? Or do you believe in it at all?


(I believe in honor. Chivalry these days could be considered just good manners and acting in a mature way. Do they exist today? Yes in both men and women.)



Omni ~

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

I think "Honor" is a very misused word, and have for quite some time. I do feel that keeping your word is part of it. But I can easily picture events in which the less honorable thing to do would be to keep your word.


I certainly have had and am having inner struggles with the way I define such things. But I also think that the struggles will forge a stronger sense of what concepts within these are most important.


Part of why this statement is so true for me right now is because I am involved within events that are making me question what the meaning of this word and concept are.

My respect for a woman is tied up in my concept of what "chivalrous" means as well. I definitely need for any woman I am interested in as more than a casual friend to be "strong" in ways, and definitely not in direct "need of protection", at least from anything other than direct physical threats.

Yet, though the nature of these concepts is very unsettled within me right now, I still feel that the very idea that there are such concepts and that they are worthwhile is somewhat threatened in our modern world. Of course, it would not surprise me greatly to find words to the same effect in an american civil war soldier's diary. Such questions seem to be timeless.

Bel. Honor and Chivalry was mentioned in many Civil War Diaries. I'm a buff of that era so I'm not too bad on my knowledge of the Civil War.

My respect for a woman goes by what she says and her actions. As we all say, actions are louder than words. To me the most beautiful thing in the world is a beautiful woman. May she always know love and respect. The worst thing? Is a woman who lies and screws around. That destroys the man inside. It's the most selfish thing I know.

We are positioned in a time that is changing. Cyber is becoming frequent. It actually seems very open and available with many offering themselves and actually having sex even though they've promised themselves to others.

So where do we draw the line? Where do we walk away? How much do we have to put up with? What is the answer?

 

[cantdog]

I think many times the anonymity of the medium has the net causing a certain loss in simple honesty. But people play mind games and toy with others on a face-to-face basis, too. It just takes more balls face-to-face than it does online.

And it's far easier online because your body language doesn't betray you, you can rub your hands with glee when you sling in a juicy deceit or an artful dodge without blowing your game by being seen laughing. Your tone of voice doesn't tip the victim off. On the whole, dissembling of every stripe is facilitated here.

That does not rule out honest interplay of minds and even hearts on the net. When I read Rumple Foreskin's posts, I never sense deceit. Weird Harold is unfailingly what he seems, I believe. Posturing is a part of life with much more appeal to the young.

Honest persons elicit honesty in response, even if not immediately or always. But when I encounter a believer in one of these honor systems I referred to, I don't have much desire to grow closer socially to them. Especially if they seem to mean it.

So to me, honesty and honor-and-chivalry are two entirely separate questions. A slimy person may have an elaborate honor code with regard to his dignity or his women, but be out for the main chance and worthy of no slightest trust in a matter of business. Mediterranean men have mistresses, too, and samurai could prey on lower classes. I see little connection. Respect and candor I respond to, but high dignity makes me very wary.

All of it exists on the net, though. What doesn't? Every statement you want to make about the denizens of the net is true, anyway, by this time. The thing is too big not to contain it all, if you look a little.

cantdog

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

I think many times the anonymity of the medium has the net causing a certain loss in simple honesty. But people play mind games and toy with others on a face-to-face basis, too. It just takes more balls face-to-face than it does online.

And it's far easier online because your body language doesn't betray you, you can rub your hands with glee when you sling in a juicy deceit or an artful dodge without blowing your game by being seen laughing. Your tone of voice doesn't tip the victim off. On the whole, dissembling of every stripe is facilitated here.

That does not rule out honest interplay of minds and even hearts on the net. When I read Rumple Foreskin's posts, I never sense deceit. Weird Harold is unfailingly what he seems, I believe. Posturing is a part of life with much more appeal to the young.

Honest persons elicit honesty in response, even if not immediately or always. But when I encounter a believer in one of these honor systems I referred to, I don't have much desire to grow closer socially to them. Especially if they seem to mean it.

So to me, honesty and honor-and-chivalry are two entirely separate questions. A slimy person may have an elaborate honor code with regard to his dignity or his women, but be out for the main chance and worthy of no slightest trust in a matter of business. Mediterranean men have mistresses, too, and samurai could prey on lower classes. I see little connection. Respect and candor I respond to, but high dignity makes me very wary.

All of it exists on the net, though. What doesn't? Every statement you want to make about the denizens of the net is true, anyway, by this time. The thing is too big not to contain it all, if you look a little.

cantdog

Thanks doc. I appreciate it. But where are we going? What do we to look forward to?
What is your prediction?

 

[doormouse]

You are so predictable LDW.

How did I know you would start this?

Yeah, so I fucked a girl. Get over it.

 

[Belegon]

The worst thing? Is a woman who lies and screws around. That destroys the man inside. It's the most selfish thing I know.

We are positioned in a time that is changing. Cyber is becoming frequent. It actually seems very open and available with many offering themselves and actually having sex even though they've promised themselves to others.

So where do we draw the line? Where do we walk away? How much do we have to put up with? What is the answer?

And here is part of the problems I have with the modern world. For all the talk about classical monogamous behavior, it is my belief that we are no more or less monogamous as a race than we ever have been. But how many couples were really together for 50 years in the past? A very small percentage. Life expectancy alone made it so. I also think that jealousy and possessiveness are inherently dangerous and do much more harm than good.

I have a moral issue with the lying, but not with being, for lack of a better description, poly-amorous. Simply put, the only reason I am monogamous is because my wife wishes it to be so and I don't want to hurt her.

Monogamous marriage made a lot more sense when our lives were shorter and more dangerous. I don't believe in "one true love". Marriage is as much an economic institution as an emotional one. Indeed, it can be argued it is more economic than anything else.

Mind you, LDW, part of what creates the sense of wonder for me in this world is the diversity of viewpoints. I do not feel yours is any less valid than mine. They are just unique to ourselves.

Now, how to reconcile this POV with classical thought about honor and chivalry? See why I say I am torn?

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

Excellent point Bel. How do we deal with it? I am a strong believer in monogamous relationships. When I love and trust it's totally given. But that doesn't seem the standard of today. Those of us who follow the principles of honor and chivilary seem to be taken advantage of. I won't change my beliefs. But maybe I need to loosen the knots just alittle.

 

[cantdog]

I'm not sure what you mean, so I'll hit them all lightly. This is off the top of my head, but some of it reflects some history of having thought about it:

For chivalry I see a long future, for the net I see the rampant dishonesty, or opportunities for dishonesty, bringing about some regrettable changes within a generation. Already people look back fondly to when research online was reliable, to when the Internet was free. In a generation, it'll seem like the wild west, this time right here, a lawless era of pioneers and scoundrels.

It is very simple, technically, to monitor the medium, every byte of transfer. This feature will be used ruthlessly to protect us all from ourselves. Much of the open easy gamesmanship and role playing fun will be gone, and the attendant costs of playing will rise.

That's why PGP was such a good idea. It would greatly inhibit the regulating enemies of this relative freedom if their monitoring efforts were futile.

Sure you can crack the encryption, technically it can be done. But it requires much more time than it does to send the messages. And effort, and money, too, probably. They'd have to pick carefully what they wanted to sink the investment of all that into, and once again you'd want probable cause that something shady was happening before you began to eavesdrop.

That idea, needing a good reason to justify the windowpeeping all these regulatory snarks want to do, is exactly what we are losing globally. There are more eavesdroppers and windowpeepers than ever these days, and not just watching the web.

No one really bothers to encrypt, so the fun will be over soon enough.

Honor, of the type having to do with blood and dignity and women, I hope to see diminish in the world as feminist culture norms replace it. A lot of people get killed over honor.

Honesty-- candor and respect-- has the same future it has always had. It's a great idea, but you can turn a buck in a con a lot easier, and you get promoted easier by swindling, lying, and ratting people out. Some folks will still make the effort of candor and respect just the same, but I certainly haven't seen any rise in the proportion over my lifetime. There are more relatively honest people than people think, too.

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

I'm not sure what you mean, so I'll hit them all lightly. This is off the top of my head, but some of it reflects some history of having thought about it:

For chivalry I see a long future, for the net I see the rampant dishonesty, or opportunities for dishonesty, bringing about some regrettable changes within a generation. Already people look back fondly to when research online was reliable, to when the Internet was free. In a generation, it'll seem like the wild west, this time right here, a lawless era of pioneers and scoundrels.

It is very simple, technically, to monitor the medium, every byte of transfer. This feature will be used ruthlessly to protect us all from ourselves. Much of the open easy gamesmanship and role playing fun will be gone, and the attendant costs of playing will rise.

That's why PGP was such a good idea. It would greatly inhibit the regulating enemies of this relative freedom if their monitoring efforts were futile.

Sure you can crack the encryption, technically it can be done. But it requires much more time than it does to send the messages. And effort, and money, too, probably. They'd have to pick carefully what they wanted to sink the investment of all that into, and once again you'd want probable cause that something shady was happening before you began to eavesdrop.

That idea, needing a good reason to justify the windowpeeping all these regulatory snarks want to do, is exactly what we are losing globally. There are more eavesdroppers and windowpeepers than ever these days, and not just watching the web.

No one really bothers to encrypt, so the fun will be over soon enough.

Honor, of the type having to do with blood and dignity and women, I hope to see diminish in the world as feminist culture norms replace it. A lot of people get killed over honor.

Honesty-- candor and respect-- has the same future it has always had. It's a great idea, but you can turn a buck in a con a lot easier, and you get promoted easier by swindling, lying, and ratting people out. Some folks will still make the effort of candor and respect just the same, but I certainly haven't seen any rise in the proportion over my lifetime. There are more relatively honest people than people think, too.

Thanks Doc,

I remember the days of beggin a patient to talk with their doctor before following the latest H2O2 suggestion on the net. That was when the net first became popular. I guess I'm showing my age. lol

I know chivalry will continue but it shall fade the same as honor. At least for the net. Honor is being lost here in the south. Many kids don't believe in opening a door for their date anymore. I took my Mom out to dinner the other night and what happened? A young couple standing in front of us and she was waiting for the door to be opened. He was too busy lighting a cigarette. So I opened it and bowed. Many consider that medieval. Some would say I was flirting. But I did the honorable thing. The grin I got in return was icing on the cake.

I like the separation of honor and honorable. Both are diffent. But may I ask? Isn't showing honor being honorable? Isn't being honorable showing honor?

 

[doormouse]

I'm sorry for jumping in on your thread here Mr.LDW, but you seem to be slandering my name.

So I fucked a girl. You and I were not together. Did this even come into the equation? I doubt it.

You go on and on about chivalry, yet not once in the two years we were together did you show me the slightest sign of respect.

You remember calling me 'slut' or 'bitch' while we were fucking?

You talk like a gentleman, yet act like an asshole. You can't have it both ways. What is it, LDW? I can post here what you sent me as 'guidelines' or 'rules' for the basis of the relationship you so desire, but I'm not as low as you. Remember that email? I kept it.

You want to slander my name, go for it. I know you're not the saint you make out to be. So I fucked up. I'm sure you're getting your jollies with this thread. It just makes me more determined than ever to never have you darken my doorstep again.

I love you, Mike, always will. But this thread just shows how spiteful your love is in return.

See you in Hell, lover.

 

[cantdog]

And here is part of the problems I have with the modern world. For all the talk about classical monogamous behavior, it is my belief that we are no more or less monogamous as a race than we ever have been. But how many couples were really together for 50 years in the past? A very small percentage. Life expectancy alone made it so. I also think that jealousy and possessiveness are inherently dangerous and do much more harm than good.

I have a moral issue with the lying, but not with being, for lack of a better description, poly-amorous. Simply put, the only reason I am monogamous is because my wife wishes it to be so and I don't want to hurt her.

Monogamous marriage made a lot more sense when our lives were shorter and more dangerous. I don't believe in "one true love". Marriage is as much an economic institution as an emotional one. Indeed, it can be argued it is more economic than anything else.

Mind you, LDW, part of what creates the sense of wonder for me in this world is the diversity of viewpoints. I do not feel yours is any less valid than mine. They are just unique to ourselves.

Now, how to reconcile this POV with classical thought about honor and chivalry? See why I say I am torn?

I agree with you wholly, Bel.

And I think you have to analyze the parts which comprise honor and chivalry. Some parts fit well with your very sensible moral system, other parts are antagonistic to it. Much of this honor crap is in the service of possessiveness and jealousy, and a lot of those cultures only mean for the women to be monogamous. For me, that has nothing much to do with chivalry.

Honor in the sense of personal integrity is quite compatible with it. What the tongue has promised the body must submit to. A promise of monogamy is binding. But a heart is larger than that, really. There is room in a heart for many deep loves, none of which need diminish the others. That promise means a less rich life, and perhaps a much larger missed opportunity-- for love-- than the simple missed opportunity for sex which the extractor of the promise had in mind.

What if a time shall come when we all live seven hundred years instead of merely seventy? Does not the good sense of a person in such a case require that monogamous relationships will need a time limit? How limited a heart you would need to cease to seek love any longer for seven hundred years! Humans have more potential than that. The children once grown and begun on their own families, how can anyone justify needing stability so much? At such a cost?

cantdog

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

I'm sorry for jumping in on your thread here Mr.LDW, but you seem to be slandering my name.

So I fucked a girl. You and I were not together. Did this even come into the equation? I doubt it.

You go on and on about chivalry, yet not once in the two years we were together did you show me the slightest sign of respect.

You remember calling me 'slut' or 'bitch' while we were fucking?

You talk like a gentleman, yet act like an asshole. You can't have it both ways. What is it, LDW? I can post here what you sent me as 'guidelines' or 'rules' for the basis of the relationship you so desire, but I'm not as low as you. Remember that email? I kept it.

You want to slander my name, go for it. I know you're not the saint you make out to be. So I fucked up. I'm sure you're getting your jollies with this thread. It just makes me more determined than ever to never have you darken my doorstep again.

I love you, Mike, always will. But this thread just shows how spiteful your love is in return.

See you in Hell, lover.

DM I have not slandered your name. Go have fun. I'm enjoying this conversation about Honor and Chivalry. Bye.

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

I'm sorry Doc and Bel. I've really enjoyed this conversation. You've both answered alot of my questions. No friend deserves to be in the middle of this. I'm sorry. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you all for the conversation and fun.

 

[GingerV]

[Looking back at the thread before I post this, I realize that I may be stepping in the middle of a mine field. That's not my intent, I don't know and can't judge anything other than what I thought was the conversation at hand. I'm going to toss this up anyway...but do please know that I'm not in any way addressing personal issues.]

I think what you call honor, LDW, I call respect. I'm a westener, so the details of my code are going to be different than yours. I was raised to believe that the first person to a door opens it for everyone else who wants to use it, and they all say thank you. It's less to do with men and women, and more to do with doing the right thing.

But in the end, I think that's all it boils down to. Life is a series of choices, very rarely are they as easy as "right and wrong." But sometimes, you have the chance to smooth another's path through the world. To my mind, chivalry is the choice to make that choice regardless of how much it complicates your life. The default concept, that chivalry is something men extend and women graciously accept may be changing, but in some senses it's because society has made it more possible for us to pay back now. I don't see that as a bad thing, but then again I wouldn't. It was how I was raised .

But while I acknowledge that the world is changing in the details, I don't think the basics are different. As a civil war scholar, LDW, you know that even in that age of honor and chivalry, there were some pretty horrific crimes committed. There are always people willing to commit selfish acts, to take the easy path and make other people's lives harder. That's not new. I don't even know that it's more prevalent. It's just the shape that's changing.

I know good people in my life. I try very hard to be one of them. I hear stories like Luc's friend (who sounded like one of the best, if you're reading Luc....I'm sorry for his loss) or the chap who offered to take the pay cut, and I'm reminded that the good guys are still out there. Doing the best they can by the rules as they understand them. And I smile, because I realize that on some level, the behaviour is contagious. By showing us what the human animal is capable of, they challenge us to live up to their standard. If two people try, their numbers grow. Maybe they'll never tip the balance, but they'll always be there.

The internet? It's a thing. It's a new way to do good, to reach out, to lie, to learn or just to spend time. It may exacerbate certain sorts of problems, but it can't change intent. I've seen it used for good and evil. I can't see that it's changing the game, it's just a new place to play it.

More than my 2cents...

G