Does honor and chivalry still exist?

[Lord DragonsWing]

Okay, after the talking toilet post and fun on the bologna I need to ask everyone a serious question and I'd love to hear the opinions. This is something personal to me so please let me know if I'm outdated.

Most of the stories I write would be considered romance. A few erotic horror. I'm not after the votes. I'm just after the expressions of the old ways. Yet, my problem is I believe in the old ways. I follow them everyday. I believe in honor and chivalry and have been hurt many times from this belief.

Does honor and chivalry still exist and if so where?

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Yes. It does.

It exists in the ones not spoken of, not praised by society, not exalted above all others.

I have seen the proof and try to live up to his example whenever I can.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I know someone who offered to take a 50% paycut if his company would not lay off a co-worker whom he valued and thought highly of. He asked them to use the spare 50% of his salary to keep his co-worker on. I'd call that honor and chivalry.

Shanglan

 

[SeaCat]

Indeed they do

Indeed they do exist, although at times it is hard to find someone who understands or believes in them.

Unfortunately many of the people who don't believe in these concepts use them to attack those who do believe in them.

Cat

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

To lower your salary for a co-worker is true to chivalry. But where do these practices stand today? Has the internet interfered with our beliefs or are there just a few of us left. Are we losing the old ways to the net?

Do the women even want a gentleman or do they even care? Are they after personal satisfaction or after someone they trust as being honorable? I'm confused.

 

[cloudy]

To lower your salary for a co-worker is true to chivalry. But where do these practices stand today? Has the internet interfered with our beliefs or are there just a few of us left. Are we losing the old ways to the net?

Do the women even want a gentleman or do they even care? Are they after personal satisfaction or after someone they trust as being honorable? I'm confused.

I'm probably going to be labeled old-fashioned, but there's certain things I was raised to expect from men. Respect, first of all, above anything else. And, there are certain behaviors - opening doors for me, that type of thing.

I'm of the opinion that if you don't have honor, then you don't have much of anything.

Just my two cents.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

To lower your salary for a co-worker is true to chivalry. But where do these practices stand today? Has the internet interfered with our beliefs or are there just a few of us left. Are we losing the old ways to the net?

Do the women even want a gentleman or do they even care? Are they after personal satisfaction or after someone they trust as being honorable? I'm confused.

I dunno. Last time I tried to defend chivalry on this thread I got flamed for being too emotional about it. Each time I talk about my ultra-chivilous friend who was killed about a year ago, I get either ignored or treated like dirt. Ironically enough, being treated like dirt was his legacy. He suffered for his chivalry all his life and if the Christians are right about the afterlife, he will suffer for all eternity for it (he was an atheist).

What he stood for, however, did influence me and a clump of my old friends who are all more honorable and chivalrous than they were for having met him. He once said, "you don't do it for reward, that makes it a job, you do it because if you don't who else will?"

Don't know if that helps. I'll await a random flame about being emotional.

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

I'm probably going to be labeled old-fashioned, but there's certain things I was raised to expect from men. Respect, first of all, above anything else. And, there are certain behaviors - opening doors for me, that type of thing.

I'm of the opinion that if you don't have honor, then you don't have much of anything.

Just my two cents.

Thank you Cloudy. I still open doors and I do bow. I was raised that way and shall always remain. Respect runs two ways in my opinion. The Lady is to be respected and cherished. In return, she offers the same. But tell me please, from a woman's point of view. Is it wrong to pull out the chair? Is it wrong to ask the one you're with to be loyal? Have times changed that much?

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

I dunno. Last time I tried to defend chivalry on this thread I got flamed for being too emotional about it. Each time I talk about my ultra-chivilous friend who was killed about a year ago, I get either ignored or treated like dirt. Ironically enough, being treated like dirt was his legacy. He suffered for his chivalry all his life and if the Christians are right about the afterlife, he will suffer for all eternity for it (he was an atheist).

What he stood for, however, did influence me and a clump of my old friends who are all more honorable and chivalrous than they were for having met him. He once said, "you don't do it for reward, that makes it a job, you do it because if you don't who else will?"

Don't know if that helps. I'll await a random flame about being emotional.

LC you're free to explain chivalry here. I'd love to hear your opinions. I'm struggling with things right now, so I want to know if I'm out of date or not. I'm up for the night.

 

[cloudy]

Thank you Cloudy. I still open doors and I do bow. I was raised that way and shall always remain. Respect runs two ways in my opinion. The Lady is to be respected and cherished. In return, she offers the same. But tell me please, from a woman's point of view. Is it wrong to pull out the chair? Is it wrong to ask the one you're with to be loyal? Have times changed that much?

I don't think it's wrong at all. Of course, being from the southeast I may have some different ideas than others.

As far as loyalty goes....I guess that would depend on whether the other person involved is someone that you're just casually dating, or if it's someone that you have decided (together) to have a monogomous relationship.

Loyalty can mean different things....

 

[thenry]

Has the internet interfered with our beliefs or are there just a few of us left.

I do not mean to detract from or derail this thread or come across as incredulous, however, I am dying to know what you are getting at. I just don't understand. Not because I think it is impossible, but because I see how the internet intersects with my definition of chivalry.

(That said, I am inspired to reply to your thread in poetry.)

 

[minsue]

Yes, they exist, but I don't view them in quite the same way as you seem to. To me, chivalry and, especially, honor have nothing to do with a person's sex. It's simply about your humanity.

I try to live as an honorable and chivalrous person and I expect others to do the same, man or woman.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

LC you're free to explain chivalry here. I'd love to hear your opinions. I'm struggling with things right now, so I want to know if I'm out of date or not. I'm up for the night.

Chivalry like he practiced it was very reverential of the female. It also tied in with a kindness to his fellow man that led to him getting beat up as a "suspect gay". He would hold doors open, always. Every class, every date, everytime a door and a stream of people presented itself. A date had to begin with a present for the lady. Whether it was a bouqet, candy, a book she had mentioned wanting. Also he was big on surprise gifts to girlfriends and friends alike. He risked his life to break up a rape attempt. The second try at that trick led to his demise. He stood for treating the woman not as an object, but a person and often a goddess. He was earnestly flattering and kind-hearted. He would defend those too weak, but he refused to throw an angry blow unless neccessary. He also stood for loyalty, to his friends and to his gfs. There was a bit of the old Shakespearean romantic flowing through it all, a belief in poetry as the true way to show affections, a belief that there is some good in everyone, a belief that love, true love must be treasured above all other emotions.

All of this was what he was and therefore what I have taken chivalry to be.

Other examples of chivalric characters: Othello (until he becomes jealous-crazy and kills his lover (a very anti-chivalric action)).
Fiddler's Green from The Sandman comic series (his defenses of Rose and his self-sacrifice are perfect representations of what chivalry means and costs).
Captain Carrot from the Discworld books (his heart and naively romantic nature as well as his desperate attempts to see the good in everyone).

Is that what you were looking for?

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

Chivalry like he practiced it was very reverential of the female. It also tied in with a kindness to his fellow man that led to him getting beat up as a "suspect gay". He would hold doors open, always. Every class, every date, everytime a door and a stream of people presented itself. A date had to begin with a present for the lady. Whether it was a bouqet, candy, a book she had mentioned wanting. Also he was big on surprise gifts to girlfriends and friends alike. He risked his life to break up a rape attempt. The second try at that trick led to his demise. He stood for treating the woman not as an object, but a person and often a goddess. He was earnestly flattering and kind-hearted. He would defend those too weak, but he refused to throw an angry blow unless neccessary. He also stood for loyalty, to his friends and to his gfs. There was a bit of the old Shakespearean romantic flowing through it all, a belief in poetry as the true way to show affections, a belief that there is some good in everyone, a belief that love, true love must be treasured above all other emotions.

All of this was what he was and therefore what I have taken chivalry to be.

Other examples of chivalric characters: Othello (until he becomes jealous-crazy and kills his lover (a very anti-chivalric action)).
Fiddler's Green from The Sandman comic series (his defenses of Rose and his self-sacrifice are perfect representations of what chivalry means and costs).
Captain Carrot from the Discworld books (his heart and naively romantic nature as well as his desperate attempts to see the good in everyone).

Is that what you were looking for?

LC you hit the nail on the head. Althought Othello is not my fav. I do enjoy King Lear though.

I feel that the man should open the door for his lady. He should sit her on a pedestal and spoil her to the best of his ability. The Lady always comes first. Gifts are always there and given to your love. But what if that love is half a world apart? What if the cost is beyond the budget of saving for a planned move to be with her? Where does the honor and chivalry come in then my friend?

Where does having your love be with another come in and bowing out come in? I believe in chivalry and honor. I practice it everyday. Now I'm wondering why? Our beliefs are gone. We're lost to the net. Loyalty means nothing on the net. We're a dying a breed. And that is sad.

 

[minsue]

I know this has already been asked, but I must echo the question: What does the net have to do with it?

 

[thenry]

I feel that the man should open the door for his lady. He should sit her on a pedestal and spoil her to the best of his ability. The Lady always comes first. Gifts are always there and given to your love.

I believe in a standard of courtesy, while differing slightly based on sex, that is relatively universal. However, if simply by being my "date" a woman becomes "my lady" (just terminology and not mocking tone) then the praise is meaningless. How, then, would I distinguish my true love from any other date? More importantly, how would she?

I have been to countries in Europe in the company of blond-haired blue-eyed women. When the men on the street display all the qualities of chivalry you have mentioned, including poetry, to random women it is not romantic but rather comedic with an edge of obscenity.

Poetry? Many would argue the very best of the love sonnets were written by Shakespeare. Many of them were written for Queen Elizabeth to display cleverness. Was she in love with him? It is doubtful, considering their difference in ages, but not even worthy of consideration. After all, Shakespeare was a married man.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

LC you hit the nail on the head. Althought Othello is not my fav. I do enjoy King Lear though.

I feel that the man should open the door for his lady. He should sit her on a pedestal and spoil her to the best of his ability. The Lady always comes first. Gifts are always there and given to your love. But what if that love is half a world apart? What if the cost is beyond the budget of saving for a planned move to be with her? Where does the honor and chivalry come in then my friend?

Where does having your love be with another come in and bowing out come in? I believe in chivalry and honor. I practice it everyday. Now I'm wondering why? Our beliefs are gone. We're lost to the net. Loyalty means nothing on the net. We're a dying a breed. And that is sad.

This sounds like it's transitioning from a debate about chivalry into practical relationship advice. Allow me to say for the record, that I suck at that shit. And if it's going badly currently between you and doormouse, allow me to extend my sympathies.

The only chivalric code I can give would be on when to bow out. You keep their happiness above your happiness. If your existence in the relationship is causing them pain, then the chivalric man needs to get out no matter how overly painful it will be to himself. On the otherhand, you need to know that you won't be causing her more pain by bowing out when in competition with a lecherous asshole.

But please don't take me on advice as relationship repair or destruction is not my forte. I just try my best and accept the combustion when it comes. Again, I am sorry things seem so...er strained between you and doormouse.

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

I know this has already been asked, but I must echo the question: What does the net have to do with it?

Good question minisue. To me, and this is just my opinion and experience. The net should have nothing to do with it. A man or woman follows their beliefs no matter what the medium is. Maybe I'm wrong. But actions speak for the person. One who believes in honor and chivalry is open to abuse on the net. We trust. Or, I do at least. Some will take advantage of that. They want the attention and devotion. Others, it's just a game.

Yes, I believe the net will destroy honor and chivalry. Because of the those of us who believe in it are tired of being pained. Instead, we'll either leave or conform. Either way, we lose. And a tradition is lost. Men think with their zippers. So I'll leave. I won't stoop to that level.

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

This sounds like it's transitioning from a debate about chivalry into practical relationship advice. Allow me to say for the record, that I suck at that shit. And if it's going badly currently between you and doormouse, allow me to extend my sympathies.

The only chivalric code I can give would be on when to bow out. You keep their happiness above your happiness. If your existence in the relationship is causing them pain, then the chivalric man needs to get out no matter how overly painful it will be to himself. On the otherhand, you need to know that you won't be causing her more pain by bowing out when in competition with a lecherous asshole.

But please don't take me on advice as relationship repair or destruction is not my forte. I just try my best and accept the combustion when it comes. Again, I am sorry things seem so...er strained between you and doormouse.

LC I'm sorry. Perhaps to me both blend together. That's why I question being honorable and chivalrous. I'm not going to change. I can't. I'll follow your advice and bow out. The pain is not something I can deal with anymore. But I do wonder? Are our beliefs gone? Does anyone care? I wonder if our beliefs matter any more.

I've given up on dor. But right now, I'm wondering if I should throw my beliefs out and act like a slut. I know I'll feel bad about it tomorrow, but maybe this once. We're a dying breed. And right now I'm lost. Sorry.

 

[RebeccaLeah]

LC I'm sorry. Perhaps to me both blend together. That's why I question being honorable and chivalrous. I'm not going to change. I can't. I'll follow your advice and bow out. The pain is not something I can deal with anymore. But I do wonder? Are our beliefs gone? Does anyone care? I wonder if our beliefs matter any more.

I've given up on dor. But right now, I'm wondering if I should throw my beliefs out and act like a slut. I know I'll feel bad about it tomorrow, but maybe this once. We're a dying breed. And right now I'm lost. Sorry.

My random two cents.....
I admire guys with manners. I love calling down to TX or the south because they always call me ma'am. I love when guys hold doors, but I do it to. Liking girls throws a slight twist in this equation, but I still expect respect the same way. I'm with Min on this one, that it comes from girls and boys. In the days of the knights it wasn't even someone you slept with, it was just a way of life, disconnected, for the most part, from sex or love. I like the idea, though I think it's more about respect towards everyone, not just affection between a boy and girl.

Simply updated for the times sweetie.

 

[GreenEyedGodess]

Okay, after the talking toilet post and fun on the bologna I need to ask everyone a serious question and I'd love to hear the opinions. This is something personal to me so please let me know if I'm outdated.

Most of the stories I write would be considered romance. A few erotic horror. I'm not after the votes. I'm just after the expressions of the old ways. Yet, my problem is I believe in the old ways. I follow them everyday. I believe in honor and chivalry and have been hurt many times from this belief.

Does honor and chivalry still exist and if so where?

I sure hope so. I'm pretty sure I was born a die hard romantic, the more evidence I get to the contrary, the more I believe that there must be someone out there who really is a knight in shining armor. Then again I could just be the last princess left locked in a castle of my own illusions waiting for someone that doesn't exist.

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

My random two cents.....
I admire guys with manners. I love calling down to TX or the south because they always call me ma'am. I love when guys hold doors, but I do it to. Liking girls throws a slight twist in this equation, but I still expect respect the same way. I'm with Min on this one, that it comes from girls and boys. In the days of the knights it wasn't even someone you slept with, it was just a way of life, disconnected, for the most part, from sex or love. I like the idea, though I think it's more about respect towards everyone, not just affection between a boy and girl.

Simply updated for the times sweetie.

I agree Rebecca. It is about respect to all. But now when we open a door for a lady we're male chauvinist. The way of the knights were outdated. History even shows their ways were just inconvenient. But for the gray of the south, it was belief. A traditoin. And in the south love and sex are not disconnected. They are one in the same. That is love. But the chivalrous male will always be polite. No matter what happens. We will bow and walk away when our lady finds others to sleep with. We will be honorable and smile as she has her orgasms.

But should we? How much should a gentleman take? How much should we put up with? I'm sorry LC, but you post the ways of chivalry. I respect you. But don't you think they're out of date? Don't you think we should change with the times? I'm sorry. I'm venting. We're out of our time.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Lord DragonsWing
Okay, after the talking toilet post and fun on the bologna I need to ask everyone a serious question and I'd love to hear the opinions. This is something personal to me so please let me know if I'm outdated.

Most of the stories I write would be considered romance. A few erotic horror. I'm not after the votes. I'm just after the expressions of the old ways. Yet, my problem is I believe in the old ways. I follow them everyday. I believe in honor and chivalry and have been hurt many times from this belief.

Does honor and chivalry still exist and if so where?

Hmmm. Maybe. That's the most rational answer I've got... maybe honor.

I don't know that chivalry actually exists anymore, as a norm.

 

[Lord DragonsWing]

Re: Re: Does honor and chivalry still exist?

I sure hope so. I'm pretty sure I was born a die hard romantic, the more evidence I get to the contrary, the more I believe that there must be someone out there who really is a knight in shining armor. Then again I could just be the last princess left locked in a castle of my own illusions waiting for someone that doesn't exist.

lol You will never be locked in a castle. You'll always be a lady. Follow what you believe. Thank you for helping me realize that. I'll never change. I'll just stay stubborn. lol

 

[RebeccaLeah]

I agree Rebecca. It is about respect to all. But now when we open a door for a lady we're male chauvinist. The way of the knights were outdated. History even shows their ways were just inconvenient. But for the gray of the south, it was belief. A traditoin. And in the south love and sex are not disconnected. They are one in the same. That is love. But the chivalrous male will always be polite. No matter what happens. We will bow and walk away when our lady finds others to sleep with. We will be honorable and smile as she has her orgasms.

But should we? How much should a gentleman take? How much should we put up with? I'm sorry LC, but you post the ways of chivalry. I respect you. But don't you think they're out of date? Don't you think we should change with the times? I'm sorry. I'm venting. We're out of our time.

Having a good guys finish last moment?

I love it. I always smile when a guy holds a door for me. If I were straight, it would probably get him somewhere with me, but I like the black leather bad boy/girl too. A gentleman would be the type I would take home to mom and dad and settle down with eventually. I can see why it sucks though and I don't have an answer for you, sorry. *hugs*