Do You Really Listen?

[Comshaw]

Agreed. If you publish a story on Literotica, you should expect comments that criticize your story. Life in the big city, etc. I enjoy critical comments. But at best, they give me a vague feeling of where I can improve.

What I'm arguing is that people who leave a comment that tells an author an area they can improve on are very unlikely to help the author become a better writer. They are much more likely to anger the author or demotivate them. People don't like unsolicited advice.

If you want to help an author get better, I suggest sending them a PM asking them if they'd like advice and on what. I'd think they'd be much more open to feedback that came that way. And if the feedback wasn't clear, then they could ask for clarification. And if you send such a PM, expect many authors to not respond or to turn you down.

That all depends on the writer. From your earlier comments it appears you have no problem trusting and accepting criticism from editors or beta readers but refuse to even consider any from a commentor on your stories. The story you told about the comments you received on huge paragraphs is telling. You dismissed it out of hand (using emotion rather than logic) because it didn't come from a trusted source.

For me, it would have set off a whole chain of events: because I don't like letting my ego get in the way of finding the truth, I'd check with those I know to see if it is a problem. Afterward I'd either correct the problem or leave it as it is. The key for me is a bit I repeat all the time: there is something to learn from EVERY situation. Sometimes it turns out to be little of nothing and other times a goldmine of things I should know or do. But I try never to dismiss any criticism without looking at it with a clear eye, or if I can't, the help of someone else. Dismissing a critical comment for the sole reason it came from a stranger is like throwing out an oyster because it had a barnacle on the shell. The barnacle ain't gonna change the quality and taste of the oyster inside the shell, no matter how much I insist it will.

Misrepresentation of my consistently held position. Folks here do so love to make up positions for me and then attack them.

My position is that you cannot assume that someone is asking for negative ("developing" in your mind's view--often without sufficient knowledge to make it) critique simply by posting stories to this site or leaving comments open here. This is not a critique site. It puts itself forward as a share site. That's evident by it allowing authors to turn off comments and voting and erase comments. I believe that most people who post stories here are doing so to share and with the hope of praise. I don't think you have to give them praise and I agree you have the right to provide negative (or your view of "developing" comment) if you wish, but you don't have the right to assume that they are asking for negative (or "developing") comment simply because they posted stories to Literotica and left comments on. If they want critique or your idea of what will develop their writing better, they'll ask for it--either in notes on the story or by asking on the Feedback threads.

It's not an issue of whether you have the right to provide critique comment. It's an issue of whether you have the right to assume that the writer either wants or must accept negative critique--that this is the reason they post stories here. I hold that it is NOT the reason most post stories here.

And I guess in addition to that, I hold that most of you don't have the chops to be telling anyone else how to write better (beyond mastering the technicals better) and that most of you do so to puff yourself up rather than any interest or concern for the one you are lording it over with your version of a "developing" critique. Most of the advice I see given on this board is unnecessarily limiting to creative writing and often just plain wrong.

To begin and to be clear, I never comment on a story unless it's one that is above and beyond everything else. An exceptional read should be recognized for what it is. The reason I don't comment is I don't feel qualified to do so, plain and simple. But that doesn't mean I don't pay attention to those who comment on my stories. Those two are separate kettles of fish.

Let's get on to other things. It doesn't matter what the author of a story wants. It doesn't matter if you think it's a sharing site. What matters is what is. When you leave the slider in the "ON" position for comments, it is permission for the commentor to say (within the rules of the site) what ever is on their mind. It's an all or nothing thing: hate them, love them, leave them or delete them. Everyone posting a story has those choices, but no one who asks for comments has the power or the right to tell a commentor what to say. If you don't like what was said, delete is your friend.

As far as your last comment, pull your head out of your ass and grow the fuck up. Are you that thin-skinned? That petty? That insecure of your talent that you need to use a blanket attack on everyone commenting here? Or is your ego that bloated that you can't act like a civilized person? It really makes no never mind which it is, you just need to chill.

As far as me, hell I know I ain't got the right to comment on anyone else's story and that's why I rarely do. I'm an old, under educated, sausage fingered, two fingered, dyslexic typist who takes weeks to get a story done that most of ya'll can bang out in a few days. I misspell things (even with a damned spell checker, go figure) use words in the wrong context and have other language structure issues. But I also know my strengths. I can tell a tale. I can keep a reader interested from the first word to the last (well those who don't get hung on my mistakes). I have an okay vocabulary and I can make characters jump off the page and come alive. I rely on my strengths and work to improve my weaknesses.

The advice I give when I give it, is what has worked for me. If someone can adapt it, use it, fine, if not that's fine too. It's not an off the shelf, one size fits all world; it may not work for someone else. But I know for a fact it isn't limiting or wrong because it did work for me.




comshaw

 

[KeithD]

Did I mention giving half-backed advice to puff yourself up? Talk about thin skinned.

Another thing I believe in that would be a good thing to do at Literotica, in case anyone, as the OP head says, is really listening, is to practice the good old concept of minding your own business. Doing your own thing here, within the site limits, being happy you can, and leaving others the fuck alone to enjoy themselves here on their own expectations--not yours. Sometimes you can't do your business any better than then they are doing theirs that you've appointed yourself to give them instruction about.

We have a case in point over on the Feedback section today. Someone did ask for help. The most recent "help" was advising them not to use second person, when they didn't use second person. It's the "guru" who gave them "advice" who doesn't know what constitutes second person.

 

[SimonDoom]

Misrepresentation of my consistently held position. Folks here do so love to make up positions for me and then attack them.

My position is that you cannot assume that someone is asking for negative ("developing" in your mind's view--often without sufficient knowledge to make it) critique simply by posting stories to this site or leaving comments open here. This is not a critique site. It puts itself forward as a share site. That's evident by it allowing authors to turn off comments and voting and erase comments. I believe that most people who post stories here are doing so to share and with the hope of praise. I don't think you have to give them praise and I agree you have the right to provide negative (or your view of "developing" comment) if you wish, but you don't have the right to assume that they are asking for negative (or "developing") comment simply because they posted stories to Literotica and left comments on. If they want critique or your idea of what will develop their writing better, they'll ask for it--either in notes on the story or by asking on the Feedback threads.

It's not an issue of whether you have the right to provide critique comment. It's an issue of whether you have the right to assume that the writer either wants or must accept negative critique--that this is the reason they post stories here. I hold that it is NOT the reason most post stories here.

And I guess in addition to that, I hold that most of you don't have the chops to be telling anyone else how to write better (beyond mastering the technicals better) and that most of you do so to puff yourself up rather than any interest or concern for the one you are lording it over with your version of a "developing" critique. Most of the advice I see given on this board is unnecessarily limiting to creative writing and often just plain wrong.

I'm not sure whom or what you are referring to. If you read my comment, it's pretty clear I did not attack you. I even said I thought you made a good case for your position. I don't think I misrepresented the position you've made. I think I was accurate. But to respond:

1. I make no assumptions at all about what an author subjectively wants when I make a comment. As I said in my comment, I think an author implicitly consents to feedback and I give it on that assumption, and also based upon my idea of reciprocity -- that I try to give the criticism that I would like to receive from others. The author is perfectly free to disregard my comment, or even delete it. I'm OK with that.

2. I totally and completely disagree with the idea that anyone should hold back on giving feedback because they lack sufficient "chops." Nonsense. Anybody who clicks on a story at Literotica has an equal right with the most experienced writer or English Professor to say to the author whether, why, and how they liked the story. As an author, I don't just want input from experienced writers. I want input from everybody. The more the merrier. For any author, the reality is that the vast majority of that author's readership is NOT composed of experienced authors or grammar experts. The opinions of those readers matter too.

3. If everyone adopted your view, the result would be fewer comments, and less criticism. And the Site would be worse off for it. I guess I have a thicker skin than some, but I just don't understand why anybody gets thrown into a tizzy by negative comments. Delete them, if you don't like them. Move on. Learn from them. Write another story. Be an adult. Understand that part of being an author and putting your stuff out there means that some people are going to hate your stuff. Deal with it.

 

[Comshaw]

Did I mention giving half-backed advice to puff yourself up? Talk about thin skinned.

Another thing I believe in that would be a good thing to do at Literotica, in case anyone, as the OP head says, is really listening, is to practice the good old concept of minding your own business. Doing your own thing here, within the site limits, being happy you can, and leaving others the fuck alone to enjoy themselves here on their own expectations--not yours. Sometimes you can't do your business any better than then they are doing theirs that you've appointed yourself to give them instruction about.

We have a case in point over on the Feedback section today. Someone did ask for help. The most recent "help" was advising them not to use second person, when they didn't use second person. It's the "guru" who gave them "advice" who doesn't know what constitutes second person.

Giving half-backed advise ( what ever that is) to puff yourself up? You talkin' to me or about yourself? Or do you suffer from a comprehension defect? As I said, I know my weaknesses, listed most that deal with writing. Do you have the confidence, self awareness, or courage to do the same?

As far as minding our own business, when you post on an open forum, when it's a shotgun address to everyone within ear shot, it becomes everyone's business. When you use egotistical and asinine generalities to insult everyone posting to the thread and then try to claim it isn't really the business of those you insulted, me thinks perhaps you're trying to worm out from under your faux pas.

I am everything I claimed in my prior post. If I were you though, I wouldn't assume this old man is stupid and inept. Come to think of it, please do.

Comshaw

 

[NotWise]

From what I've seen of this thread, the moderator could lock it up and set it aside.

 

[lovecraft68]

From what I've seen of this thread, the moderator could lock it up and set it aside.

Because of one poster and one poster only. What the mod should do is start removing their posts or give them a time out. Every thread is turned into one about him where he attacks everyone and plays victim

But yes, let's make it like its everyone and not one troll.

 

[TadOverdon]

"Everybody's out of step but Keith D."

 

[Comshaw]

You have no idea what you are talking about. KD is a trained editor with more years of experience than most of you have been writing. Yeah, he's harsh and opinionated but in a lot of ways, he has put in his time and a lot of the time, he's right but a lot of people don't want to hear it.

This gangbang has gotten way out of hand.

The bolded portion is the problem. I usually try to be civil, treat others as I wish to be treated. That said, I've NEVER liked a bully and will not abide that type of behavior. While I have no direct knowledge of it, KD might be a great editor, but it does not give him the right to treat others with disrespect, to heap the derision he does on them for no other reason then he feels he's entitled to do so. I cannot nor will not let such thing pass because it might make me uncomfortable if I call it out.

To everyone else though, I do apologize if I've put a sour cast on your day. That was not my intent.

Comshaw

 

[ElectricBlue]

To everyone else though, I do apologize if I've put a sour cast on your day. That was not my intent.

No need to apologise. Everyone's just playing their favourite record. K-Tel's Greatest Hits from the 70s 80s and 90s, stuck on repeat.

 

[KeithD]

I have to laugh at the thin skinned comment. fifteen years of "let's bring the one actually in the business down to our level" crap like this thread--calling ME nasty with the shit that has been delivered here, for example--not to mention the stalking, and here I still am, responding to questions as I can, and posting my stories. And here I'll remain for the foreseeable future. A horse laugh to "thin skinned."

 

[KeithD]

I'm not sure whom or what you are referring to. If you read my comment, it's pretty clear I did not attack you.

No, I was not responding to you, although perhaps you were one of the ones miscalling a position I've taken. If so, it was just a glancing blow. You are one of the ones who seems have knowledge and some balance. Our disagreements at least seem honest ones--not part of the ongoing personal attack campaign.

 

[TxRad]

Because of one poster and one poster only. What the mod should do is start removing their posts or give them a time out. Every thread is turned into one about him where he attacks everyone and plays victim

But yes, let's make it like its everyone and not one troll.

Your fighting with KD goes back twelve years when he called you on several things and wouldn't back down from you. Give it a rest as you've been told a dozen times.

The bolded portion is the problem. I usually try to be civil, treat others as I wish to be treated. That said, I've NEVER liked a bully and will not abide that type of behavior. While I have no direct knowledge of it, KD might be a great editor, but it does not give him the right to treat others with disrespect, to heap the derision he does on them for no other reason then he feels he's entitled to do so. I cannot nor will not let such thing pass because it might make me uncomfortable if I call it out.

To everyone else though, I do apologize if I've put a sour cast on your day. That was not my intent.

Comshaw

KD has been the brunt of more bullying than you can imagine because he states what he thinks. There is always someone who thinks they know better. And no, he does not think he is entitled to anything. He has a point of view and it usually is to mind your own business but people don't want to do that or even listen to it.

I think you need to go back to the start of this thread and reread it. Pay special attention to who attacked whom first.

NW, I'm surprised he hasn't.

 

[gordo12]

The bolded portion is the problem. I usually try to be civil, treat others as I wish to be treated. That said, I've NEVER liked a bully and will not abide that type of behavior. While I have no direct knowledge of it, KD might be a great editor, but it does not give him the right to treat others with disrespect, to heap the derision he does on them for no other reason then he feels he's entitled to do so. I cannot nor will not let such thing pass because it might make me uncomfortable if I call it out.

To everyone else though, I do apologize if I've put a sour cast on your day. That was not my intent.

Comshaw

No problem. We all feel pretty much the same. But in your list...

As far as me, hell I know I ain't got the right to comment on anyone else's story and that's why I rarely do. I'm an old, under educated, sausage fingered, two fingered, dyslexic typist who takes weeks to get a story done that most of ya'll can bang out in a few days. I misspell things (even with a damned spell checker, go figure) use words in the wrong context and have other language structure issues. But I also know my strengths. I can tell a tale. I can keep a reader interested from the first word to the last (well those who don't get hung on my mistakes). I have an okay vocabulary and I can make characters jump off the page and come alive. I rely on my strengths and work to improve my weaknesses.

You forgot to include a whole shit-load of "H's"

 

[KeithD]

Giving half-backed advise ( what ever that is)

Part of it would be knowing the difference between "advice" and "advise." Sorry, but it just jumped out in that pomposity. My "backed" rather than "baked" was quite funny, but your "advise" rather than "advice" took it right over the top.

But that's part of it here--and appeared here earlier and I called it then. Folks just love to ascribe positions to me I haven't taken and attack me for them. I have never asserted I was perfect in anything and when I give editorial advice (advice), whenever possible I cite an authoritative industry source beyond my personal opinion, unlike just about every other self-appointed blind-leading-the-blind "guru" here.

 

[gordo12]

KD has been the brunt of more bullying than you can imagine because he states what he thinks.

Bullying? He brings it on himself with his comments. The "chops" one was typical. He insulted everyone within reading distance.

Chops?
8letters gets an average of 200 followers per story.
I get an average of 21 (I am envious of 8letters)
Keith gets (and I checked both profiles) 2.4 per story.

Somebody wrote me and pointed out they'd both been on Smash for the last ten years. The writer has close to 600 followers; Keith has 28.

It appears to me the fans don't share his idea of "CHOPS!"

I think you need to go back to the start of this thread and reread it. Pay special attention to who attacked whom first.

NW, I'm surprised he hasn't.

First off, I'm not sure what you mean by NW, so you might want to clarify that. But if you're referring to my "Groundhog Day" style, I think it's well supported.

And he walked right into that one with his eyes wide open!

I went through a bunch of his profile lists, and virtually every story I looked at was 6-7000 words. PULP PORN! A day or two of writing and tossed into the mix to make some money. That isn't my definition of writing. Selling a customer a twenty-page story on Kindle doesn't cut it for me. It's a ripoff as far as I'm concerned. It's a money-making idea that was popular years ago when Kindle first started and has disappeared. (I hope)

To be fair, I did go on Amazon, and there were a lot of stories there that were a lot longer. But I'm not buying them to check if he double spaced or used larger font to increase the page count. Nor could I go through every story on his lists; there are far too many of them.

 

[Comshaw]

Your fighting with KD goes back twelve years when he called you on several things and wouldn't back down from you. Give it a rest as you've been told a dozen times.



KD has been the brunt of more bullying than you can imagine because he states what he thinks. There is always someone who thinks they know better. And no, he does not think he is entitled to anything. He has a point of view and it usually is to mind your own business but people don't want to do that or even listen to it.

I think you need to go back to the start of this thread and reread it. Pay special attention to who attacked whom first.

NW, I'm surprised he hasn't.

My posts have nothing to do with who attacked who. It has everything to do with KD's attack on EVERYONE in this thread who voiced any advice at all. I've made it pretty clear I don't feel qualified to critique anyone else's work. I did give some advice in this thread but it was more along the lines of generic ways to view criticism from others and how to get the most out of it, something I know much about. But let's look at your assertion on the bolded part above shall we?

KeithD:
..."And I guess in addition to that, I hold that most of you don't have the chops to be telling anyone else how to write better (beyond mastering the technicals better) and that most of you do so to puff yourself up rather than any interest or concern for the one you are lording it over with your version of a "developing" critique. Most of the advice I see given on this board is unnecessarily limiting to creative writing and often just plain wrong."

Read KD's quote above and tell me again how he's a mind your own business kind of guy. That is a direct ego fueled attack on almost everyone posting in the thread, for no other reason than his ego got bruised. No one, let me repeat that, NO ONE has the right to lash out at everyone within ear shot because they feel they've been wronged by one. Anyone with a clear eye can also see it reeks of entitlement. Please read it again or any number of times until you see for real what he said. A simple question: would you see his quote above as benign if it were delivered by anyone else and you were on the receiving end? I think not.


Comshaw

 

[SimonDoom]

May I make a suggestion? Let's stop getting personal in this thread. Let's not make it about the motivation or character of the people contributing, and let's just deal with the subject matter of Gordo12's initial post -- a perfectly reasonable question that obviously has prompted different and interesting viewpoints. We can disagree without thinking those who disagree with us are bad.

 

[gordo12]

May I make a suggestion? Let's stop getting personal in this thread. Let's not make it about the motivation or character of the people contributing, and let's just deal with the subject matter of Gordo12's initial post -- a perfectly reasonable question that obviously has prompted different and interesting viewpoints. We can disagree without thinking those who disagree with us are bad.

Make it so Number 1, the OP thanks you!

 

[Comshaw]

Part of it would be knowing the difference between "advice" and "advise." Sorry, but it just jumped out in that pomposity. My "backed" rather than "baked" was quite funny, but your "advise" rather than "advice" took it right over the top.

But that's part of it here--and appeared here earlier and I called it then. Folks just love to ascribe positions to me I haven't taken and attack me for them. I have never asserted I was perfect in anything and when I give editorial advice (advice), whenever possible I cite an authoritative industry source beyond my personal opinion, unlike just about every other self-appointed blind-leading-the-blind "guru" here.

I have ascribed no "position" to you. I never questioned the advice you give. I'm sure it's solid, meaningful and useful. I have however called you on what you have posted. Just like the bolded portion above. You appear to delight in belittling those who you see as less than you. Earlier, you got your ego bruised by someone here, so you just had to lash out at everyone within ear shot. I'm supposed to ignore that, allow you to get away with that? Why? Why should you be allowed to be an ass?

And as far as my misuse of the word you pointed out, if you'd like to go back and read my earlier post you'll find I copped to doing that. I admitted it. The problem lays in the fact I am as I described, a semi-educated, sausage fingered typist. You on the other hand are a self-described mucho educated expert on writing and English. Stumbling on such things is expected from less educated amateurs such as my self, but much more is expected from the experts. We just can't have you mangling the language that way. Or you could come down off the pedestal and be a human. Ain't no skin off my nose either way.

Comshaw

 

[Comshaw]

May I make a suggestion? Let's stop getting personal in this thread. Let's not make it about the motivation or character of the people contributing, and let's just deal with the subject matter of Gordo12's initial post -- a perfectly reasonable question that obviously has prompted different and interesting viewpoints. We can disagree without thinking those who disagree with us are bad.

As much as I admire and respect your request, what KD did rubs part of me that gets riled when poked. I could go into a whole litany of explanations about my childhood and bullies and so on and so forth. I won't. Suffice it to say I just can't let things like what he did pass. Call it a character defect. It probably is. But I will try to keep shut and let this thread get back on track. And I will apologize again to those not involved for being part of the disruption.


Comshaw

 

[Payne_Hall]

Make it so Number 1, the OP thanks you!

Can I be Geordi? I want the VISOR.

 

[KeithD]

And as far as my misuse of the word you pointed out, if you'd like to go back and read my earlier post you'll find I copped to doing that.

I didn't read most of what was in your posts, and won't do so now either.

 

[gordo12]

Can I be Geordi? I want the VISOR.

You got it. Now we need a volunteer for Deanna Troi. It may involve a personal interview

 

[Comshaw]

I didn't read most of what was in your posts, and won't do so now either.

Of course you won't. Arrogance and an overblown ego prohibits anything approaching mannerly behavior. Run away! Run away! from The Beast of Caerbannog.


Comshaw

 

[KeithD]

Of course you won't. Arrogance and an overblown ego prohibits anything approaching mannerly behavior.


Comshaw

You dropped in on me with a personal attack and about ten minutes of knowledge of AH history. I didn't start up on you. You started up on me. You're a belligerent hypocrite. You have no relevance on this.