Do people really not get it?

[bailadora]

In another thread, CWatson said:

Ultimately, what you need to do is be willing to make sacrifices. I've said this a few times on this board and I'm not sure anybody's ever gotten it

And that got me to wondering: Do people really not understand the concept of sacrifice/compromise? Or is it more a matter of someone wanting what they want and being unwilling to budge from their POV?

Discussions, theories, alternate POV's welcome.

 

[subwannabe]

Everyone is so different, even the same person at different times in their lives, I just don't see how this question can be answered. At the risk of hijacking your thread, just look at the current congress. Each side is entrenched in their own beliefs and as a whole they find it almost impossible to sacrifice/compromise. Every time one side wins an election they take it as a 100% mandate to be uncompromising.

 

[NippleMuncher]

IMHO, any good relationship requires two things, communication and partners willing to find compromises when issues arise, whether that relationship is familial, friend, or a significant other.

 

[Eilan]

Some people are just special snowflakes.

 

[sunandshadow]

It's important to not sacrifice things that you are going to regret doing so or be miserable as a result of. It's also important not to compromise too easily because you will end up being the only one doing the compromising, always on the losing end. There are many people who are perfectly happy to walk all over others, and even if you don't want to abuse others if they don't stand up for themselves you can do so by accident. By default everyone is only aware of their own desires and needs, and you are concentrating on your own concerns, so if others don't firmly and somewhat loudly express their own desires and needs it's easy and tempting to ignore them.

 

[silverwhisper]

yes, some people simply don't get it. they don't understand that not having their way 100% of the time simply isn't the way life works and absolutely should never be the way one interacts with others.

fortunately, snark & the internet are proving quite educational in that regard for many a fuckwit. :>

ed

 

[Iamnotthe1]

And that got me to wondering: Do people really not understand the concept of sacrifice/compromise? Or is it more a matter of someone wanting what they want and being unwilling to budge from their POV?

Doesn't it depend on what you are sacrificing or compromising? In a relationship it is essential to the survival to treat this person like a partner which always means doing things sometimes that you wouldn't necessarily do. Maybe watching the races when you really could care less or going to an opera when it really doesn't interest you. But what are you really sacrificing? I think it's about enjoying just being with someone and that means doing what they want to do also.
There will never be anyone who sees things exactly the way that you do but what is cool is when you find someone who likes you so much that they will agree to compromise their stubbornness because what they have with you is much more valuable. Rare quality indeed!

 

[NippleMuncher]

It would seem that a definition of terms is necessary.

Sacrifice - to surrender or give up, or permit injury or disadvantage to, for the sake of something else.

Compromise - a settlement of differences by mutual concessions; an agreement reached by adjustment of conflicting or opposing claims, principles, etc., by reciprocal modification of demands.

The use of sacrifice implies a one sided relationship and/or martyrdom on the part of the sacraficee, where compromise is an assessment of a situation by both parties and finding a mutually acceptable alternative.

It is amazing what can be accomplished through open and honest communication.

 

[infinity706]

Everyone is so different, even the same person at different times in their lives, I just don't see how this question can be answered. At the risk of hijacking your thread, just look at the current congress. Each side is entrenched in their own beliefs and as a whole they find it almost impossible to sacrifice/compromise. Every time one side wins an election they take it as a 100% mandate to be uncompromising.

Actually, the gridlock thing can help for things like congress. You can promise the most rediculous shit, submit the bill, and not care anymore when it gets shot down. Afterall, you tried.

It would seem that a definition of terms is necessary.

Sacrifice - to surrender or give up, or permit injury or disadvantage to, for the sake of something else.

Compromise - a settlement of differences by mutual concessions; an agreement reached by adjustment of conflicting or opposing claims, principles, etc., by reciprocal modification of demands.

The use of sacrifice implies a one sided relationship and/or martyrdom on the part of the sacraficee, where compromise is an assessment of a situation by both parties and finding a mutually acceptable alternative.

It is amazing what can be accomplished through open and honest communication.

Ok, so you've shown that a compromise is a sacrifice for more than one party.

 

[bailadora]

It would seem that a definition of terms is necessary.

Sacrifice - to surrender or give up, or permit injury or disadvantage to, for the sake of something else.

Compromise - a settlement of differences by mutual concessions; an agreement reached by adjustment of conflicting or opposing claims, principles, etc., by reciprocal modification of demands.

The use of sacrifice implies a one sided relationship and/or martyrdom on the part of the sacraficee, where compromise is an assessment of a situation by both parties and finding a mutually acceptable alternative.

It is amazing what can be accomplished through open and honest communication.

Hmmm. It's been my experience that sometimes a compromise can be reached. And sometimes it can't, in which case, someone is going to have to give up their position for the sake of the relationship.

Much like the OP in the thread that spawned this one, I have some very specific desires that I would dearly love to engage in with my husband. We've talked about them at length. Several times over the years, in fact. Unfortunately for me, those are no fly zones for him. Period. End of discussion. So in a very real sense, I have sacrificed pursuit of those desires for the sake of my relationship with him. Is it worth it? Yes. Does it eliminate those desires? No. But it is what it is and for me, not worth destroying over 20 years of history over.

 

[NippleMuncher]

Much like the OP in the thread that spawned this one, I have some very specific desires that I would dearly love to engage in with my husband. We've talked about them at length. Several times over the years, in fact. Unfortunately for me, those are no fly zones for him. Period. End of discussion. So in a very real sense, I have sacrificed pursuit of those desires for the sake of my relationship with him. Is it worth it? Yes. Does it eliminate those desires? No. But it is what it is and for me, not worth destroying over 20 years of history over.

I know the situation of which you speak, but I'm not quite sure how it's a sacrifice to you not to be able to achieve one of your fantasies or desires. How are you giving up part of yourself to the benefit of another? Please, don't get me wrong, I'm not belittling your situation, I'm just not sure it's much of a sacrifice. Now, if you FORCED him to bend to your will, then he would be making the sacrifice for you. And for the record, I think it's shitty of your husband not to work with you with your fantasy. While I definitely think there are some hard lines to be drawn and not crossed, macrame doesn't even make the list.

Also for the record, like your husband, I'm not into macrame, however I would be willing to entertain the idea as long as things started in the shallow end of the wading pool, and as part of my participation you must be willing to entertain one of my fantasies that you are reticent to try. That is compromise.

 

[amofiga]

In another thread, And that got me to wondering: Do people really not understand the concept of sacrifice/compromise? Or is it more a matter of someone wanting what they want and being unwilling to budge from their POV?

Discussions, theories, alternate POV's welcome.

Most things in life are a compromise involving some level of negotiation, even if it's as simple as who that quck decision to decide who passes through a door first if two arrive at the same time. It's part of daily life and most of the time we don't even notice it. The problem is that negotiation and compromise involve some level of emotional security. I believe that the more emotionally secure someone is, the more willing they are to listen to the other person's opinion, have enough empathy to see his point of view, and the more willing they are to meet in the middle. Many who are overly steadfast in their beliefs, whether religious, political, sexual, economic, etc are often people who are afraid to make themselves vulnerable enough to accept the benefits of moving off their position. It's their security blanket.

I've found in my many years on this earth, that often people who see the world as black and white rather than shades of grey or subtle blends of many shades of color, are those with lower basic intelligence and the inability to process new information which is required to make independent decisions. They tend to be either dogmatic type people. They may hold fast to only one set of beliefs based on whatever they have been told by others, and are afraid to change. There are also the are egotists who must maintain their position at all costs in order to preserve some sort of power. My dad was a good example, rest his soul, and I eventually learned to love him because I started to understand his need to dig in his heals on everything. Someone mentioned congress. Perfect example of the egotist category. I've also been frustrated with super bible thumpers who cannot see human behavior in any way other than "good and evil", "God and Satan".

How do you get people to open their eyes, broaden their thinking, and compromise? Some just can't do it. It then falls upon those who have a broader view of the world to accept those whose views are cast in stone. It's up to the information processors to not judge the lack of flexibility often seen in some. It then becomes necessary to work around them as best as possible. I've known and worked with several people who are masters of working around those who are road blocks and usually the road-block people are too narrow-minded and stupid to even notice they've been sidestepped and left in the dust.

 

[bailadora]

I know the situation of which you speak, but I'm not quite sure how it's a sacrifice to you not to be able to achieve one of your fantasies or desires. How are you giving up part of yourself to the benefit of another?

I'm not sure I can accurately put it into words, but I'll give it a shot. Those particular desires figure quite heavily into what trips my trigger. I'm hesitant to call them needs because it's not like I'm going to die without them. But...when it comes to sex, they're always on my mind. Let's just say that if I could find a way to incorporate them into my relationship without pissing off my husband, I'd do it in a New York minute.

But....it's just not gonna happen. So I let it go.

Now, if you FORCED him to bend to your will, then he would be making the sacrifice for you.

I'm not seeing how force=sacrifice - unless it's unwilling sacrifice, which I want no part of. To me - sacrifice means to willingly give up something important for the sake of someone else's happiness or well being.

While I definitely think there are some hard lines to be drawn and not crossed, macrame doesn't even make the list.

*shrugs* I don't think it's that radical either, but the location of that hard line differs from person to person. I can either sit, sulk and make everyone one else around me miserable or I can put on my big girl panties and deal with it. I choose the latter.

 

[NippleMuncher]

I'm not seeing how force=sacrifice - unless it's unwilling sacrifice, which I want no part of. To me - sacrifice means to willingly give up something important for the sake of someone else's happiness or well being.

Yes, by the general definition I posted earlier, forced=sacrifice=performance of your desires against your partner's will. Your definition of sacrifice is valid too, but IMHO, in the context of this thread and the intent behind it, my definition is more accurate than the definition of "sacrificing for the greater good".

Honey, don't get me wrong, I too have some things I'd like to be doing in bed that my partner is unwilling to entertain. While I may not like it, I don't feel that I am sacrificing a part of myself or my soul by not getting them.

What IS soul killing to me is to be with a partner that doesn't care about my needs, sexually, emotionally, and physically. I do sacrifice myself in this respect because I believe that the alternative is worse than the current scenario.

So maybe rather than asking "do people really not get it", maybe the real question is "what is your definition of sacrifice"?

 

[Joe6pack]

I'll add another angle. I think sometimes partners understand that compromise is necessary, but it's like they are speaking two different languages. Something I learned (maybe on lit) is that it is about how you go about asking. For instance, instead of saying I want you too........ Try saying I really love it when you........ Believe it or not, that actually worked for me with regards to my wife and an issue we were having.

Also, I think men and women often have different currencies (though yours sound a little reversed). For me, my wife being overtly sexual is a turn on. She would rather see me take care of the house, interact with the kids and generally be a good husband and father. It reminds me of the Jennifer Anniston movie with the line: "I want you to want to do the dishes". I'll never want to do the dishes, but I can certainly do the dishes.

Too often, I think we just see things from our own point of view: I can't believe she won't wear heels to bed. I can't believe he won't get off his ass and fix that damn screen door. We think they want what we want and can't understand their actual desires.

Just a thought.

 

[NippleMuncher]

Too often, I think we just see things from our own point of view: I can't believe she won't wear heels to bed. I can't believe he won't get off his ass and fix that damn screen door. We think they want what we want and can't understand their actual desires.

Reminds me of one of my favorite home improvement commercials.

 

[sethp]

Yes it is about compromise. However, and I've been in this situation....girl is amazing in so many ways that I say BAM! she's a keeper. Relationship starts but she's not a swallower and never will be. I push it and plead and do what I can but ultimately....I knew this going into the relationship. It's all the other amazing stuff that attracted me. Life is good....then comes the bad part....the one thing I don't have...is all I can think about. I've poisoned my relationship...it fails because of me. From then on....this had to be one of the first things discussed. it's that important.

 

[CWatson]

Or is it more a matter of someone wanting what they want and being unwilling to budge from their POV?

I can only speak for myself, but I think it's this more than anything else. It's why I advocate approaching the problem the way I do. A lot of people, myself included, approach discussions saying, "Well, all right, but here's why you're wrong." I think it helps more to approach it from the direction of, "I want to learn why you're right." Offering a good-faith sacrifice just plays into that attitude, of being able to step back and be selfless and put the other person's interests first... even if that means not getting what you want.

Does this work in practice? Not entirely sure. I've only been able to make it work once. It was when my ex (who is waiting until marriage) wanted to cut back on what little physical canoodling we did do. I said to her, "It's how I show you I love you." And she said to me, "I know, and I appreciate it, but to me it would show me you loved me more if you didn't do it." And maybe I'm a sap, but I took it seriously. And hey, it worked! ...For the two or three hours remaining. (It was the last time we saw each other before deciding to go our separate ways. In fairness to her, we did so for reasons completely unrelated to sex or the lack thereof.)

But that's really my point right there. I can groan and struggle and say, "No, I want things my way"... Or I can try to speak her language, and be loving to her in the ways she considers loving, and hope that she, seeing me sacrifice on her behalf, will be willing to do the same. Because the simple fact is that if my girlfriend wants [X], she'll probably get it. The only question remaining to me is whether I'm okay with it. I can choose to be irritated to distraction... Or I can roll with it. Guess which way sanity lies.

 

[TBKahuna123]

You know, this is an interesting thread and I've been going back and forth about how to reply to it. There are a couple things that I think are important to point out.

First off people are freakin selfish. We are perhaps the most self-centered, inflexible society in history. Most people, when it really comes down to it, only care about pleasing themselves, regardless of what they say. Even more to the point though, people aren't willing to sacrifice of themselves for others, no matter how big or small said sacrifice may be.

Marriage or any relationship for that matter, is a matter of compromise and sacrifice. A happy relationship is only possible of both partners are willing to give of themselves and sacrifice for the other. This can be as simple as suffering through a chick flick, or a big as giving up a career so your partner can pursue their dream. Not everyone can make those sacrifices, and sometimes it's ok for the person to say no. At that point the partners are forced to make a choice...how much does this sacrifice mean to each person. Is it worth doing something I don't want to do to make my partner happy? Is it worth giving up this dream rather than making my partner do something they don't want to do? This is the conundrum.

It's not selfish to draw a line and say I can't do this. Selfishness comes when one person won't even consider making a sacrifice for their partner. And we all do it, in things big and small, but particularly with the small things that we thing don't count. I catch myself doing this all the time, and you know what, it does count.

Sexual boundaries though are especially tough. We draw these lines early in life and think that's how they are. A lot of it is preconceived notions of our own sexuality, formed in our immature ways. When I was 20 years old, I would have never let a girl touch my ass, cause that was gay, right? At 40, I have a lot different view, because I was willing to open my mind and make sacrifices to make my spoude happy. But some things can be tough, and it's not always selfishness that causes us to say no.

When I was in college I had a girl ask me to rape her. Now I freaked at 19 I had no clue what she was asking. It freaked me out so bad we broke up, in fact. What she really wanted was for me to get rough with her, dominate her, but she put that into the context of rape. Me, being ultra-sensitive to the treatment of women, couldn't even conceive of raping a woman, and it destroyed my desire to be with her. Had she asked differently, could I have done it? Could I have dominated her like she really wanted? I'm not sure, but I do know I would have been more willing to try. The point is, this wasn't selfishness that stopped me from trying this, it was poor communication. She didn't understand why I wasn't into that, I didn't understand how she could want that, all because what she wanted and what I thought she was asking for were two different things.

Bella in your instance, I agree with Ed...what you're asking for doesn't even make my list of taboo endeavors, but maybe there's a deeper reason why your hubby isn't interested in trying it for you. I do know that I applaud you for analyzing things and saying it's not worth it to sacrifice your relationship for that one fantasy. That's the unselfishness that I think is key to most happy marriages. Hopefully someday he'll return the favor.

Sheesh, I think I wrote a page and a half. Sorry.

 

[bailadora]

TBK! Talk about long time no see! How the hell are ya?

I got busy over the holiday and I'm still entertaining out of town guests, but I'm happy to see the discussion continuing. It's late and I'm tired, but hopefully I'll be able to add some further thoughts in response to recent posts soon.