Do certain vows mean more?

[gotdatmony]

What ever happened to...."My word is my bond.".....?????

 

[Calamity Jane]

What ever happened to...."My word is my bond.".....?????

Your point being?

 

[brokenbrainwave]

Let's assume that to Sally, the vows all hold equal weight. So this 'breakage of the vows' is the exact same to her as if her husband was fucking the maid every other Tuesday, or smacking her around when he was upset.

She's confronted him about it, he's promised to try and consult her more often, but it never happens. Or, it happens briefly, and then the old pattern is reestablished.

fair enough:
Sally in this case needs to seek out help from a profesional. If her husband will not attend these meetings with a marriage guru, then go by herself. Heres the key, at first he might say "no, you cant go". If he does, the gate has been opened for her to show him how she feels and how he made her feel by saying "you've done what you want to do without my input, well in this case I offerd you mine, you turned it down, now I am going to do it anyways." or something to that effect.

 

[bored1]

Considering that I committed adultry on one or more occasion, its obvious to me that I didnt take my vows seriously. I truly regret the choices that I made that destroyed my family. After going through all the emotional pain of divorce and seperation from my children I now see how important ALL of the marriage vows are. Marriage, like all things in life is hard work. There are peaceful times where all is good, and there are times when we seem to lose touch with the one we love. I believe we begin to take our partners for granted and stop seeing them as the people we were iniatially were attracted to.

 

[Calamity Jane]

fair enough:
Sally in this case needs to seek out help from a profesional. If her husband will not attend these meetings with a marriage guru, then go by herself.

So you would also recommend marriage counseling if her husband was fucking someone else or beating her?

 

[brokenbrainwave]

infidelity probably yes, physical abuse probably not. this is a seemingly fixable problem, so yes I suppose I am putting more weight into the others. hey you outted me

my opinion is of no consenquence, its merely an reflection of what I would do if faced with these circumstances. Sally is the one holding all the trump cards. She has to look into the mirror and decide if it means enough to her that she is willing to break her union with this man. If it does mean yes, I personally do not agree, then she needs to make it clear, but that cannot ever be used as a threat. However Sally also needs to keep in mind, no one is perfect...is one "flaw" really worth uprooting an entire family?

 

[Calamity Jane]

infidelity probably yes, physical abuse probably not. this is a seemingly fixable problem, so yes I suppose I am putting more weight into the others. hey you outted me

However Sally also needs to keep in mind, no one is perfect...is one "flaw" really worth uprooting an entire family?

That's what I'm asking. Is breaking any one of the vows worth dissolving a marriage over?

Love, Honor, Cherish, have and hold, sickness/health, richer/poorer, forsake all others...

 

[brokenbrainwave]

PCG, that is not an question with a black and white answer. I gave my opinion and the answer is no. For some however, it might be. It depends on a persons personal delusion of happiness.
Am I perfect, lol, the missus will be the first one to say no. We all make sacrifices, we all "settle" for our mates. Anyone that says they got exactly what they were looking for will never fool me and only fool themselves. Now given that, if any one vow is broken and whatever can lead to divorce, is it not a miracle anyone makes it?

 

[gotdatmony]

My point being......If you say it ...you better live it....and I feel that if these comittments are broken....there is cause for null and voiding the contract

 

[Calamity Jane]

My point being......If you say it ...you better live it....and I feel that if these comittments are broken....there is cause for null and voiding the contract

Ok, so if your spouse refuses to bring you chicken soup in bed when you're sick, they've broken the sickness/health vow and therefore the contract is void?

I've been married for almost 8 years. I know this stuff isn't black and white, but I'm still trying to figure out how many of us actually gave any thought to what we were saying during the ceremony, and how many of us gave it even one second's thought after.

I thought about the love part, and the forsaking all others part. Honestly, though, that's about it. The others have only been chasing themselves through my brain for the past few days.

 

[WhatsHerName]

A spouse who claims their partner had an affair gets all kinds of sympathy and empathy and 'oh, god what a rat bastard he is'. Does a spouse who claims their partner no longer cherishes them receive the same? What about a spouse who no longer feels honored?

When we take vows, do we assign importance to each one? Do we decide that there is one vow that MUST be kept, even if all others are broken, and as long as that one is intact, all is well?

Do we even think about our vows once we've said them? Do we wake up in the morning thinking "I promised to cherish this person forever. Can I do that?

Do you feel cherished? Honored? Loved? Does your spouse hold you when you're sick? Do you support each other in hard financial times? Is it ok not to do those things as long as you're not doing the cleaning lady?

I would have to say that yes. society as a whole takes that one vow into higher importance than the others. I can speak from experience that not having love, honor and cherishment in a marriage can lead to forsaking others. Not that it justifies any of the other broken vows because it does not. It is sad that we tend to place this one vow above all the others. Cherish, honor and love are all feelings that we have towards another, it effects how we treat another person. When someone has an affair it is a tangible thing...something you can say look this person is cheating on me. I think that is where it is made the scapegoat for a lot of marrital problems. When someone does cherish you...probably only you are going to see that....it only effects you.

Thank you, this thread has made me realise that I do not spend enough time thinking about the vows that I made to my spouse. Maybe we should make it a point to wake up in the morning and ask ourselves...I am showing my mate that I love, honor and cherish him daily? Do I feel love honored and cherished? If you don't like the answers that you give yourself, then ask yourself Do I want to love honor and cherish this person? The last vow is more of a blind trust type of vow...if you don't love honor and cherish your mate...is he going to look for those feelings else where? If you don't feel love honored or cherished will you look for these feelings else where?

 

[Dillinger]

In general people are too quick to judge other people and they almost never know the complete circumstances of why someone might take a certain course of action or feel a certain way.

I think I can safely say we've all fallen prey to this type of behavior. We judge people all the time online here and in real life and we do so without out knowing the "whole story."

Pagancowgirl says:

The vows for my wedding included promises to Love, Honor, Cherish and Forsake all others. There was also the bit about in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer.

Why do we as a society, we as people, we as individuals take certain parts of vows of these types to have more significance than others/ Which is the one that gets people all up in arms... gets them mad... causes all sorts of problems. Its the "Forsake all others" part - the adultery part. This is only because we live in such a sexually repressed society. Because the mores of our culture put such high emphasis on what is, when you come down to the basics, the idea that one person can OWN another. That's what jealousy is. Its about someone messing with your property. Its fucked up.

Taken in context, the forsaking all others is thrown in there with a bunch of other promises. It's not mentioned as a seperate, more important promise than the others. Why do we uphold physical fidelity like it's the only reason for marriage, as if it's THE vow not to break?

Exactly! The other vows are at least as important and, in my mind, more important. The "Forsake all other's part" was not in my wedding vows. Any vows that implied ownership were not in the vows I took. That's all a bunch of bullshit put in by a patriachal society intent on the concept of women being the property of men. And you women here should know that and be appalled by it. That's its genesis - that's where it comes from. In more modern times the concept of ownership has become more equal... *lol* - in otherwords men can own women, women can own men. Instead of moving toward a more open and open minded society - instead of breaking the binds of such nonsense we've just expanded them to include both sexes. That's not equal rights. That's equal slavery.

Fucking bullshit.

I think I have more to say... but I'm going to calm down first.

 

[Calamity Jane]

Because the mores of our culture put such high emphasis on what is, when you come down to the basics, the idea that one person can OWN another. That's what jealousy is. Its about someone messing with your property. Its fucked up.

I think I have more to say... but I'm going to calm down first.

Exactly. I actually hear it referred to as 'other dogs sniffing around my yard'. I assume, in this case, I'm the yard. I'm the territory to be lost/gained. Pretty fucking sad.

I am guilty of holding specific vows above others. I'd MUCH rather my husband was fucking other women than know every single day that he has less respect for me than he does any other person he'd meet on the street.

 

[angelika]

forsaking ALL others

I've never liked that one. Taken literally it can mean family, friends.

 

[Wolf_Song]

Note... this is not a thread seeking justification for any past, current or future actions on my part. I am not looking for advice. This is asked out of honest curiousity.

I would like to ask people to read the post and then answer, before reading everyone else's thoughts. I'd like honest, gut level responses, not arguments about what others think.

There are so many threads on the board about adultery, cheating on a spouse, whether it's justifiable or not. Often, someone mentions wedding vows, and how it's so important not to break them, because that's breaking a promise you made before 'god n everbody'.


"These specific wedding vows you speak of and are largely known and practiced by western society were brought in to being by catholic church. Previous to that in roman times often a couple would decide to and marry privately with out a religious official. The divorces were often handled similiar to, where in private again they would decide this to be so as well. A lot of modern confusions in this is due to religious influence upon it by celibate clergy whom have never experienced marriage."


The vows for my wedding included promises to Love, Honor, Cherish and Forsake all others. There was also the bit about in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer.


Taken in context, the forsaking all others is thrown in there with a bunch of other promises. It's not mentioned as a seperate, more important promise than the others. Why do we uphold physical fidelity like it's the only reason for marriage, as if it's THE vow not to break?


" Society as a whole is becoming more understanding of infidelity, even in the courts. As with more modernizing laws the primary consideration of courts is children if their are any. Is amazing how many still believe if they were the adulterer that they would immediately lose children.

Plus to consider all the repercussions of adultery and in most cases of them. Would have been healthier for the people to talk about things before it got to this. But not every one knows what they want or are the best of communicators with others.. spouses included.

Fidelity is upheld for many reasons.. to not hurt spouse, children, morals, ethics, religious, legalities, conscience, and more. Ultimately if some one is thinking of or participating in such they arent happy in their marriage. With needing to take a good look at themself, spouse.. then communicate of what is or isnt making them happy. With both being open, accountable and responsible for the past, present and future.. whether to stay together or not."


A spouse who claims their partner had an affair gets all kinds of sympathy and empathy and 'oh, god what a rat bastard he is'. Does a spouse who claims their partner no longer cherishes them receive the same? What about a spouse who no longer feels honored?


"Depends on the audience and orator as to how the sympathy pendulum swings."


When we take vows, do we assign importance to each one? Do we decide that there is one vow that MUST be kept, even if all others are broken, and as long as that one is intact, all is well?


"If one isnt happy in marriage it may be due to self, spouse or other.. better to find out the source of unhappiness, then go from there."


Do we even think about our vows once we've said them? Do we wake up in the morning thinking "I promised to cherish this person forever. Can I do that?


"Thats normal anxiety for people to go through that now and then. Though if constant it is a definite sign of that or something else causing unhappiness and needing remedied."


Do you feel cherished? Honored? Loved? Does your spouse hold you when you're sick? Do you support each other in hard financial times? Is it ok not to do those things as long as you're not doing the cleaning lady?


"If one is happy in their marriage and feeling fulfilled in all aspects then all is good. If not, then as said above their is unhappiness that needs to be dealt with. Some couples realize their is that which they forgot about, especially each other.. then take steps to refresh and nurture real love. Others are better of separated or divorced due to the unhappiness felt by one or both."



*edited to add... after your initial post, you're welcome to come back and argue, I'm afraid this is starting to seem like a thread only I'm allowed to question responses on*

Promises and vows dont make a marriage work.. loving communication in all its numerous wonderful forms does.

Love is the purest reason to marry or stay married.. any thing else is merely convenience.


Hearts blessings and happiness wished to all

 

[Calamity Jane]

Re: forsaking ALL others

I've never liked that one. Taken literally it can mean family, friends.

It does mean that, absolutely. This new spouse is supposed to take all precedence over ever relationship you've ever had.

Wolf_Song, I see what you're saying, but I'm not looking for therapy here. I know all about unhappiness and taking responsibility for my own happiness or lack thereof.

I'm speaking strictly about vows, our adherence to them, and whether or not there is a hierarchy of vows.

 

[WaterNymph]

Wow. After reading your post PCG, I really found it hard not to see what others were writing, but I did decide to just reply.

See, I don't condone 'cheating' in the sense that I think people who are neglected should go out and get laid right away without trying to see why the need is there, and what good can come of it, but I don't condone people neglecting others to the point that they'd feel the need to go seek sex elsewhere.

I always have been bothered that it seems people (my husband for example) would get hurt over such a common thing (people are prone to desire multiple people, and some are not, but it is just extreamly common, married or not) but that they don't really get moved by the idea of thier spouse spending more time with someone else on a more mentally bonding level because they don't see that as a threat, even though the spouses lack of focusing on the relationship is the reason for the person to be seeking out others to connect with.

But in my eyes, that is the biggest threat of all. If I bond with another person on a non-physical level, and they are attractive and they find me attractive, then I have to watch out! I have a self control problem with hot men and women who are cool and that i connect with. I am just like that, but if I am happy at home in the love/sex department, I tend to just internalize any sexual thoughts of people I meet and tend to just want to be good friends. I don't seem to need that love/sex bond. When that bond has been broken... and it has by him, where the honor, and other vow bullshit came into play, I hurt and then I need to feel loved. If I found someone who cared consistantly enough to not betray my honor, and expected the same from me, then I'd be tempted to 'cheat' i guess.

Well, I think people need to drive home the importance of things like not betraying honor, virtue and so many other more important matters to their children as they reach thier teenage years. That would help people see in marriage that when problems arise and then emotional neglect occurs... soon follows the actions of your body seeking out love, or some kind of substance to fill empty hearts.

There are those who cheat habitually though. You can't deny they exist and are everywhere. They pray on the neivity and kindness of others. These vile beast come in fashionable colors for men and women. It doesn't matter what you deserve or whether or not you are a good person. They'll do it to whomever they can. That is when you must see it isn't personal and move on.

But, there is another kind of cheater. One that people don't realize is the most sad of all. The kind of person who will never be confidant enough to have self worth enough to stand happily on thier own. The kind that has to have sex to feel love.

Sex is not love.

Love is so much more and with love, comes some damn fine fucking action.

It is very rare that in a fully nurturing relationship, one that honors all of the most cherishable vows we give in marriage, that there is any going to be any 'cheating' going on. Most open marriages become open because the spouses are so confidant in the love and commitment of thier spouse, that they don't worry about a little physical activity happening, when what they cherish more is the bond and love between thier spouse and themself.

 

[Cheyenne]

Go ahead and answer. If/when you get married, will you hold all of your vows to the same level of importance?

Of course, other vows being broken are often the cause of splits. But, if you were talking with a girlfriend who was contemplating divorce, and when you asked her why she thought her marriage was failing she replied "Because he just doesn't cherish me anymore." Would you be more or less supportive of her decision than if she said "Because he's been sleeping with Sally for the past 6 months."?

I don't know. I guess it would depend on what we talked about and agreed to before it came time to take the vows. I know one thing, there would NEVER be the word "obey" in there.

The answer to your second question is "yes." Someone close to me is in the middle of a bitter divorce. The husband doesn't smoke, drink, or cheat on her. But he treats her like shit, no respect, no love. I think it is far worse than what he could have done to her by having a one night stand.

 

[Sandia]

Good question, Pagan.

I don't think I have anything profound to say about it.

My own opinion is that wedding ceremonies are about getting presents, having a party, and "legitimizing" the relationship to the relatives...

...that the true meaning of a relationship exists within the relationship itself, not the social conventions that attend to it.

People get hinky about marriage, though. They think having a baby is less of a commitment than getting married... for example.

 

[Wolf_Song]

Re: Re: forsaking ALL others

I'm speaking strictly about vows, our adherence to them, and whether or not there is a hierarchy of vows.

Adherence to vows is up to those giving and maintaining them. With every one being a unique individual that learns more of what they want and need in life as time passes. Thus their isnt an over all agreed upon hierarchy of vows.