Discrimination by gay travel companies?

[Etoile]

I've been participating in a rather heated thread on a cruise-related message board called Cruise Critic. The thread is called "Are gay men welcomed on Olivia cruises?"

If you haven't heard of them, Olivia is a women-only cruise line. They charter entire cruise ships for a week at a time, and they feature excellent entertainment like Melissa Etheridge and Lily Tomlin. They are for women only, and 99% of their passengers are lesbians.

In this other thread, a gay man said he really liked some of Olivia's entertainment and wondered if he could go on a trip with them. The answer to the question posed in the thread title - would he be welcomed - is a definite no. The thread spilled over into Olivia's own message board, and many women said that if they knew a man was going to be on board, they would not go at all.

But the question of "are gay men allowed on board" is still not answered. The official response from Olivia is "we do not turn anyone away" but in the same breath they emphasize strongly that they are a lesbian-targeted brand. This has led to the impression that men would be strongly discouraged from going...and the thread has discussed whether or not that's discrimination.

Now, it's true that there is no equivalent for men. The only all-male travel group is RoMANce Vacations, and they are not nearly as big as Olivia. The two biggest companies, RSVP and Atlantis, are coed, meaning they welcome women - but in practice, the passengers are 90-93% male on RSVP, and 92-97% male on Atlantis. I have been on RSVP myself, and there were 147 women and 1700+ men.

Do you think it's discriminatory that Olivia targets itself toward women only? Is it different from a golf club that does not allow female members? A big issue in the thread was that women supposedly want their own space but deny men the right to have theirs.

What do you think? I'd love to hear discussion.

 

[gaymm]

I am a gay man.

It does not bother me, nor offend me, nor do I feel discriminated against. There is a need for women only, as well as men only activities.

Chris

 

[CuriousNiceGuy]

Hmm, well I probably wouldn't go on a gay cruise anyway, but I think it is discrimination. I don't mind cause I'm not interested at all, but it's a pity if some guy wants to go and he isn't allowed. It's not like a male's appearance on a cruise is gonna spoil the fun. Everyday lesbian women interact with men, does that keep them from having fun in their lives? is it that difficult to just ignore the one next to you and have fun? Dunno..I mean most homosexual/bisexual people probably have thought at least once:"What do they care what I do, it's not their business, I don't offend them in some way."
And now we're gonna discriminate between us? ( I hope that made sense..I'm not too good with english -_- Just go on your cruise and have fun with your friends/girlfriends without paying too much attention to the people around you. If you don't like them, ignore them..

 

[Etoile]

Hmm, well I probably wouldn't go on a gay cruise anyway, but I think it is discrimination. I don't mind cause I'm not interested at all, but it's a pity if some guy wants to go and he isn't allowed. It's not like a male's appearance on a cruise is gonna spoil the fun. Everyday lesbian women interact with men, does that keep them from having fun in their lives? is it that difficult to just ignore the one next to you and have fun? Dunno..I mean most homosexual/bisexual people probably have thought at least once:"What do they care what I do, it's not their business, I don't offend them in some way."
And now we're gonna discriminate between us? ( I hope that made sense..I'm not too good with english -_- Just go on your cruise and have fun with your friends/girlfriends without paying too much attention to the people around you. If you don't like them, ignore them..

That's just it, though, CNG. For a lot of the women there, it would spoil their fun. Whether it should or not is an issue of utopia and tolerance, but the fact is that it would spoil their fun. They are on the trip to be in the company of other women for a week, as an escape. Yes, of course they have to interact with men every day - that's part of what they want to get away from. So if they don't want to deal with that for a week, is it really discrimination? Or is it just having a space to be with your own kind while you're on vacation?

 

[privyjo]

I have conflicted emotions on this issue.

On the one hand - Olivia is a "women's club" but I refrain from using the term "an all women's club" since it's true targeted customers are lesbians though it is not explicitly stated on their web-site (and I mean on their main homepage) - which makes me wonder if the reason it is not explicitly stated is so they are not accused of being discrimnatory towards those who are not lesbian. I am a lesbian, but what happens if a straight woman wants to go on the cruise? And what makes her - the straight woman - different from a "gay man"? Technically speaking, neither are lesbians - see what I mean? And what happens when some of the performers have male band members? Are the male band members barred from the cruise? If not, then the gay man has a real argument for why he should be allowed to go on the cruise. What about the ship's crew - is it all women or are there men?

On the other hand - everyone needs a place they can go - even men - without feeling pressure from the outside world and Olivia provides such an opportunity for the lesbian/female community. Should a business not be allowed to target a specific sector (men, women, black, white, asian, straight, gay, etc.) of the society in which it is established without it being labeled a business that discriminates against sectors of society not included in their targeted customer base? And nothing prevents the gay man or straight woman or straight male from seeing the performers who are invited to provide entertainment on the Olivia cruises in different venues. That to me would be true discrimination - preventing the gentleman in question access to any and all performances of the guest performers held anywhere - period - based on his being male or being gay.

You have presented an issue that raises a lot of questions in my mind and I have no definite answers. The presence of men really does not bother me one way or the other - I am indifferent to them sexually and yet enjoy their friendship. The presence of a male on a cruise would not really affect me one way or the other unless he was a real asshole - but then you run into those everywhere - male and female.

 

[Etoile]

I did ask on the Olivia message board about the percentage of lesbians on board vs. bisexuals and straight women. The answer, from both the community and the guest relations department, was that their passengers are 99% lesbian - "but we don't ask people what they are, either."

As for the male staff and performers - they are usually there and they don't interfere. There was an issue at a Club Med resort vacation sponsored by Olivia, where male resort staff were told they had to stay away, but that was apparently an isolated incident caused by a misguided Olivia employee. I'm not sure why the passengers feel having a male passenger on board would be different from having a male crew member on board. When I was on RSVP, the passengers were more than 90% male, but the crew was probably 50% female and everybody was fine with that as far as I know. Then again, RSVP is "technically" co-ed while Olivia "technically" is not.

You make an excellent point about gay men being allowed to see the performers at other venues. That's very important, actually - it is probably cheaper for someone to fly to a venue, spend the night in a hotel, and see somebody perform than it is to take an Olivia vacation just to see somebody perform!

I agree with you that there are no easy answers here. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

 

[privyjo]

Wow - does make the head ache, doesn't it?

And it begs the question - an overused question but it seems to fit - "can't we all just get along." Problem is, everyone has a different take on what it takes to "get along" with one another!

Will you keep us posted on how Olivia resolves this issue? Somehow, I have a feeling they are going to face it again and again. Then again, maybe not.

And BTW - did you have a good time on your RSVP adventure? Where did you go?

 

[Harrowborg]

Interesting thread. On a serious note, I am under the impression that you get what you pay for. If these hundreds of women have paid for a cruise holiday on the premise that there are no men, whether its right or wrong, thats what the company has to deliver or risk going out of business, simple economics. what i always find interesting in these situations is how history seems to be repeating itself again. the whole abolition of male only establishments was to ensure women were treated equally and fairly and yet business like this tour group Olivia? and other companies like, female only car insurance companies seem to a degree to succeed by discriminating against men. now granted its not to the extent of forcing men to the back of the bus or to wear certain clothes and be second class citizens but it seems that, if this cruise line and other such companies were only concerned with equality, then there would be no problem with a man, gay or otherwise coming along. 'everyone is equal'. but companies like these seem to have lost focus on what they were about to start with and now seem concerned with 'empowering women' and ensuring that the genders effectively, get into a pissing contest about whose better. which just drags society back a hundred years ago.

on a light hearted note. can you image a ships crew made up entirely of women? its bad enough being stuck behind a female car driver let alone one that has control of a 100 tonne cruise ship. *yikes*

 

[510mike]

Clearly Discrimination

Very interesting thread that would be appropriate to many situations. The obvious answer is that this is clearly discrimination. This is the same arguement made with golf club membership, Boys and Girls Scouts and other situation in society.

However, shouldn't people have the right to discriminate in a free society? Maybe I am wrong, but doesn't 'free' mean free to do what you want (provided you do not cause harm to another; I do not believe someone is harmed by being 'offended' either) and not free to do what you want as long as society approves?

I just think that everyone takes themselves too seriously these days. Too many people have a false sense of importance. We are only here for a short period of time, so why go about being bitter and offended. Why would you want to be anywhere you aren't wanted anyways.

Thanks

 

[pa-guy]

Sounds like I'm about to win the lottery, I'll sign up, likely be discriminated by the staff, open a lawsuit and make millions!!!

On a serious note,
I think all same-sex institutions are all bad. But do I feel personally discriminated by them? No...but then again I've never tried to enter one for either gender.

I cannot understand the difference between an all same-gender institution and all same-race institution.

Now if a company wants to have all their activities geared towards women or men and not both, thats fine. So long as they don't actively try to dissuade the opposite sex from attending and participating.

 

[CuriousNiceGuy]

That's just it, though, CNG. For a lot of the women there, it would spoil their fun. Whether it should or not is an issue of utopia and tolerance, but the fact is that it would spoil their fun. They are on the trip to be in the company of other women for a week, as an escape. Yes, of course they have to interact with men every day - that's part of what they want to get away from. So if they don't want to deal with that for a week, is it really discrimination? Or is it just having a space to be with your own kind while you're on vacation?

I guess I don't undestand WHY it would spoil the fun.. I mean it is too lame a reason for me(sorry if this offended anyone, but it my opinion..).. Of course it maybe a serious reason for one of those women to not go to the cruise, but does it really matter that much? They do try to get away from a reality full of men and want to have a space to be with their own kind on their vacation, but a handful of men doesn't change that. I mean, there could be a limited amount of tickets for men who, just like that guy, like the entertainment of Olivia and may want to go on a trip with them.
What bothers me is not that men aren't welcomed to this cruise, but what you said:

But the question of "are gay men allowed on board" is still not answered. The official response from Olivia is "we do not turn anyone away" but in the same breath they emphasize strongly that they are a lesbian-targeted brand. This has led to the impression that men would be strongly discouraged from going...

This is just a political maneuver of Olivia so as to avoid the actual word discrimination. Of course having good relations with everyone is good for a business, but this is like taking us for fools.. Telling they're lesbian-targetted brand, but not turning away anyone is a serious antifasis. At least be honest and say that gay men WILL be turned away as it is a women-only cruise.
I don't know..tell me if I sound irrational..

 

[none2_none2]

I see it as two different issues;

1) Should they legally be able to do so?
I'd say yes because as long as they aren't taking government funds, they should have any freedom of association they want.

2) Are they morally right to do so?
This one I have a hard time dealing with. The arguements that you brought up Etoile were similar arguements that i heard in a men's fest that was geared more for gay men who were pagans. I went to this men's fest and as a result ended up on some email group. I let it continue for a long time just to undersand where they were coming from. At one point, some men found out that the female caretaker of the private park where they had this week long fest, had in fact NOT left the premise, but rather stayed secluded in her house. Some of them felt so voilated that she was on the premise. Some of them went into all sorts of arguments about how feminine spiritual vibrations would affect the harmony of the masculine spiritual communion. It was all bull sh*t as far as I was concerned. They also used the reasoning that they have to deal with women 51 weeks out of the year, and they shouldn't have to this week.

While they were having this fest, even if they could have evicted the female groundskeeper, there were still female birds, female mamals, and female bugs that I"m sure were there during their male spiritual vibrations that they were trying to experience. Plus I don't see how some guys in drag add to male spiritual communion.

To be honest, if it wasn't for the fact that i already knew a couple of decent guys who were pagans, I would say that I developed a hatred for pagans. Most of them were white middle aged men who probably grew up in judeao-christian (spelling) homes, but probably rejected it because of the gay intolerance. No they in turn turned around, and give off the same intolerance. What really makes it worst is that a year earlier the county tried to close the place down because of the gay and pagan happenings. Many people -- including women -- fought for their right to meet there. Some of these people were so anti-christian and so anti-female, that it made me ashamed that I shared even sexual preferences with them. I will never attend any other men's fest that is predominately attended by gay male pagans. There attitudes made me sick, and it wasn't because I'm not a pagan...

I think the thing to ask myself when questioned if something is descriminatory. Take the sentences that justify what you want to do, and change the nouns. So for instance, I deal with people of all races, faiths, nationalities, heights, genders, sexualities, etc at one time or another at work, in town, etc.... Sure I may be comfortable with my "own" with however I define my "own". But lets give examples: Would the following scenerios sound right?

"I want to go on a week cruise for whites only. I wouldn't feel comfortable around non-whites."

"I want to go on a week cruise for Christians only. I wouldn't feel comfortable around non-Christians."

"I want to go on a week cruise with young adults only. I wouldn' feel comfortable with older people."

"I don't want to go on a week cruise with obease people. I don't feel comfortable around fat people."

"I want to go on a week cruise with only English speaking people. I don't feel comfortable around foreigners."

"I want to go on a week cruise with only attractive, young, hung, gay men. I don't feel comfortable around anything else."

The reason I did so many is i figured if someone does enought of these exercises they finally find something that can reach them as being discriminatory and realize maybe that is the same with what they are currently facing.

I can understand a group not wanting a BEHAVIOR during THEIR vacation: No man hitting on them; No man oggling them; Perhaps no smoking; perhaps something as simple as toilet seats left up being anoying. Still those things are behaviors, and that is different than baning groups of humans because they are a member of some "undiserable/annoying" group.

I will say that about 4 years ago, I went to Provincetown, MA in late Ocober. It turned out to be Womyn's week of some sort -- I had no idea. I thought it was neat that for once, I was in an area where gay people (even if they were lesbians and not gay men) were clearly the majority if only for a brief period. Also all these lesbians just being people. They ran the gamut, and they were all doing what THEY wanted to do. (FYI, It was a HUGE deal with hundreds of lesbians all over. There were also SOME straight couples, SOME gay men, etc. Still clearly the town was teaming with lesbians.)

As just an observer, I didn't see where I noticed any woman showing signs of uncomfortabiliby because lesbians were only 95% of the crowds instead of 100%. My only regret was that because I'm shy and because I too sometimes have my own stereotypes that I didn't even say hello to any of them. Perhaps I would if there had been some alone, but I don't remember many that came alone.

Sorry that my responses are sometimes so long. I just want to say that "I" personally am not bent out of shape if that is the way it is. Still, it does seem wrong. THe fact of the matter is that unless for some strange reason the cruise was over ran by non-lesbians, the flavor of the cruise and all it offered the lesbians probably wouldn't be noticable -- unless someone were HUNTING to find something wrong. I'm really not into cruises. Still, I would prefer a lesbian cruise over a gay cruise if I was told I won a free cruise and had to pick. The reason isn't because I want to crash a lesbian thing, but rather because it is safer. A casual social friend took videos of his cruise. It struck me as being an all-u-can-suck/fuck event and a 24hour bar. They would have contests like who had he longest cock, and if I remember correctly also who can jack off the furthest (I'm dead serious.)

I have a partner now, and in my meaning of partner I don't mean someone to cruise with (pun intended). I have only been with him and want it to stay that way. Given that a significant part (not all, but big) of the gay male world still resolves around sex, drugs, booze, the LAST place I would want to be would be stuck on a boat with hundreds of gay men looking to party and get off. Somehow, I don't think the lesbian cruise would have biggest breast contests, who can lactate the most, or live sex (or mocked up) sex on stage. Thus I would tend to think the lesbian cruises would be more likely to have events to stimulate my head (the one on the shoulders I mean). I think it is safe to say I"m in the minority. I don't think that many gay men would try to crash a lesbian cruise. You'd probably have more problems with str8 men posing as gay men just to see if they could get on and hope to see steamy, poised-for-str8-men, lesbian sex.

Before I end this rambling, one question: What would they do about trans-people? (I'm not one, but figured it would complicate their reasonings for who can or cannot come.)

 

[flower-punk]

...

i think exclusivity is a load of bollocks... it divides people and creates resentment...

 

[BitterIchor]

No one is denying these men to have their own space. As you said, there are alternatives for gay men, even if they aren't as big as Olivia Cruises. The women just want their space for themselves. For many lesbians and women in general, experiences like Olivia cruises is the only place availible of its kind. There are no women only clubs anywhere near where I live, for example, everything is either mixed or dominated by gay men. It sort of bugs me that we can't seem to have anything to ourselves.

But on the other hand, why wouldn't they "allow" gay men there at all? That seems to be a trifle extreme. It seems stupid. I wouldn't mind if there were a few gay men around. I admit that I wouldn't like it if a lesbian oriented cruise I was on suddenly got overrun by men, gay or not. It would sort of defeat the purpose of going, now wouldn't it? In that case, I could just as well go on a regular cruise. But a few here and there wouldn't be a problem.

And since Olivia Cruises do not actually turn men down, it is by definition NOT discrimination. Many activities and companies caters primarily to one group of people, and emphasis that. But as long as they don't actually prohibit other people from participating, it is not discriminating. It's just a specialized business concept.

 

[Animalbite]

heres my only problem..

hi everyone, i dont post much on here, but this issue kind of compelled me to say something. im not gay, prolly would say bi curious, but that has NOTHING to do with my answer to this topic. let me give an example....a big white cruise ship flying a confederate flag targeted towards white loving whites....now everyone gets up in arms. whats the difference? i can understand wanting to have a place to belong, to feel loved, but discrimination is discrimination, whether its the majority doing it to a minority, or visa versa. its the same reason i have a problem with BET, simply because the race card is so blatantly thrown out there. we're all human beings, albeit with different interests and personal relationships. we shouldnt have to go someplace special just to be ourselves.

 

[Etoile]

hi everyone, i dont post much on here, but this issue kind of compelled me to say something. im not gay, prolly would say bi curious, but that has NOTHING to do with my answer to this topic. let me give an example....a big white cruise ship flying a confederate flag targeted towards white loving whites....now everyone gets up in arms. whats the difference? i can understand wanting to have a place to belong, to feel loved, but discrimination is discrimination, whether its the majority doing it to a minority, or visa versa. its the same reason i have a problem with BET, simply because the race card is so blatantly thrown out there. we're all human beings, albeit with different interests and personal relationships. we shouldnt have to go someplace special just to be ourselves.

That's the utopia thing again, though. No, we shouldn't have to go someplace special, but some people feel like they do have to. Should they be denied that right?

As for the "white power" cruise...that's a typical example, but I think the difference is that those groups preach hatred. That's not what Olivia is doing - sure, there are some man-haters on board, but the group as a whole is not a hate group...while most white supremacists are hate groups. Ignoring the fact that a hate group would never get a ship chartered anyway, the fact is that preaching hate is not acceptable in our society, and that's why a "white power" cruise would be frowned upon where a women/lesbian-only cruise might not be.

 

[jerryshk]

Actually I see the discrimination issue more like this. I live in one of the largest metropolitan areas in the country. Women whose husbands were members of one of the most prestigious and well known golf clubs in the US sued the club over tee-time issues. Their "in" was that since the club received taxpayer subsidized tax status (land was taxed as agricultural as opposed to developmental potential - this is a typical standard for clubs across the US) then they had to comply with applicable Federal anti-discrimination laws. The change in tax status was going to be about 500,000/yr. The very wealthy members voted to accept the change in tax status and simply pay the difference by raising dues. By receiving no tax subsidies, they then became a truly private club and could set whatever restrictions they wanted. This is legal. By applying the same concept, if the cuise line were to reject their current tax subsidies, then they could legally set whatever restrictions on their various packages that they wanted to in order to attract business. However, this isn't likely.

While I understand the utopian desire to have a cruise package that includes only a "special" targeted group (ie "people like us" whatever their sexual or political persuasion - no gays, no men, no Jews, no blacks, etc.), the fact is that anyone has to be allowed to participate if the cruise line wants to participate in the US market. One way around it might be to flag the ships such that applicable US laws did not apply and the ship's made no US port calls. Other than these two ways, they will be subject to current US laws. Most major cuise line will not want to give up the lucrative US market, however I could see how a niche player or a special sub created by a major line might find a way to work around this and still make a profit. Ultimately, that's what it's all going to be about.

 

[Etoile]

the fact is that anyone has to be allowed to participate if the cruise line wants to participate in the US market. One way around it might be to flag the ships such that applicable US laws did not apply and the ship's made no US port calls. Other than these two ways, they will be subject to current US laws. Most major cuise line will not want to give up the lucrative US market, however I could see how a niche player or a special sub created by a major line might find a way to work around this and still make a profit. Ultimately, that's what it's all going to be about.

Keep in mind that this is a travel company, not a cruise line. Olivia charters ships operated by Holland America, etc. There are plenty of other groups that charter ships, too...the Geek Cruises, and a Christian women's group I saw one time. So it's not an issue of the cruise line losing the US market or flagging ships, etc.

 

[Queersetti]

There is an aspect of this issue that I have not seen addressed, and that is the matter of maintaining the integrity, if you will, of the cruise theme.

The fact is, and anyone who has had long experience in the gay social scene is likely to agree with this, that men will tend to force women out of their spaces if given the chance. In many, many cases, when lesbian clubs or groups have opened their doors to gay men, the men eventually outnumbered the women and changed the fundamental nature of the establishment.

While Olivia's policy may be morally questionable, it is sensible from a practical standpoint. If it becomes a generic "Gay cruise", it will quickly lose the qualities that attracted the original lesbian clientele.