Difference between subs and slaves

[Breaker_Morant]

I hear you, but everyone gets tired of a lot of things around here. At the end of the day, it's not really anyone else's business how people want to live their lives. It's always a fine line on a message board, because many of us talk about our lives in pretty varying levels of intimate detail. I've got my ideas about right, wrong and who the hell cares, and so do most others. But you really can't let it bother you that much. It's a message board.

I was just saying the same thing at my local group's get together recently. Something I said to be funny eight zillion months ago apparently did not go over so well with someone. I don't even remember saying it. Do I want to be rude? No. I feel kinda shitty that I wasn't more careful about choosing my words. But ya know, at the end of the day, all I can do is say, sorry, be polite and move on. It's just a munch. It's just a message board. Whadya gonna do?

Just feels good to vent my spleen every now and then. You're a barrister, you're alot more practiced in being emotionally detached than I am.

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

A battle of wits, huh? Ok. I'll bite. First, I never said I was a slave. What I said, and I quote, was "While I am not a slave yet, I am in training to become Daddy's slave." I am, however, without a doubt "owned" and thus act in a manner akin to being a slave in that I serve and obey my Owner and have thusly devoted and committed myself to doing so. That means no limits to what I will do to make sure his needs and assigned tasks are met, even though we are not at a point where I am 24/7 TPE yet. And yes, Daddy does tell me how to dress, how to act, etc.

Second, its funny that you once identified yourself as a Dominant yet prefer the chase over someone devoted to satisfying your desires- to me that sounds more like a person playing Dominant for purposes of getting what they want for the moment, instead of creating a lasting relationship with a person whose only desire is to please you without being Sammy and without being thought of as a doormat or mindless.

It's called surrender, something that is valued from a submissive/slave, not something to be looked down on.

First of all.. I'm not calling you, nh23, cat and kc "doormats". I have conversed with all of you I don't get how you can identify yourselves as slaves. My image of a slave is a 24/7 TPE and I mean TOTAL - like you will wear this, that ect. Breathe in, breathe out. Sorry.. I'm too intellectually lazy and I enjoy the chase too much; hence my preference for SAMs. Once the jig is up, what's the challenge? With a slave (at least my definition of it) there is no challenge - I've micromanaged people before and its usually been done by rote once I learned their needs.

 

[JMohegan]

That in my opinion is not a Master. That's an asshat. Those were some of my huge concerns before entering into this relationship. Just from other things I'd heard and read. In my relationship it's not like that. He cares about my feelings. He takes them into consideration before every decision he makes..Yes I'm his pet/slave. But first I'm his love.

I fail to see the asshattery, as long as the relationship is consensual and mutual needs are being fulfilled.

 

[madetotakeit]

Second, its funny that you once identified yourself as a Dominant yet prefer the chase over someone devoted to satisfying your desires- to me that sounds more like a person playing Dominant for purposes of getting what they want for the moment, instead of creating a lasting relationship with a person whose only desire is to please you without being Sammy and without being thought of as a doormat or mindless.

It's called surrender, something that is valued from a submissive/slave, not something to be looked down on.

I've had many conversations with Breaker. I can assure you he does not look down upon the surrender of submissives/slaves. He seemed to be expressing what works for him, as he said, by his definition of it.

I may have missed it, but I didn't see where he referred to the chase. He referred to the challenge and I think I understand what he is saying from the reverse side. There is a rush (for me at least) to realize that you have surrendered, that you are in the presence of someone who can take that control away at the same time you willingly relinquish it. It is being able to re-enact that power exchange over and over. Some people like that battle. That is the dynamic that works for them. Under certain definitions of slave, that battle is not played out again once the Master claims ownership. Some people think their perfect mate is someone that they will never disagree with. For others, their idea of perfection is a verbal sparring partner. As long as each finds the dynamic that works for them, others' stances don't matter much. There is certainly enough variety for everyone to be happy. That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

 

[licker4450]

The eternal subs have more of a choice-slaves less of one.

The exchange of power is absolute in teh M/s.

 

[catalina_francisco]

First of all.. I'm not calling you, nh23, cat and kc "doormats". I have conversed with all of you I don't get how you can identify yourselves as slaves. My image of a slave is a 24/7 TPE and I mean TOTAL - like you will wear this, that ect. Breathe in, breathe out. Sorry.. I'm too intellectually lazy and I enjoy the chase too much; hence my preference for SAMs. Once the jig is up, what's the challenge? With a slave (at least my definition of it) there is no challenge - I've micromanaged people before and its usually been done by rote once I learned their needs.

LOL, well correct me if I'm wrong, but I never thought the owners of the slaves in US history told them when to breathe in and out, but they were still considered owners and slave. As to clothing, if he doesn't like it, it is to be thrown out, or as I suggested as a better alternative, given to charity. Not sure why you think it difficult for me to be a slave on other fronts though as in thinking it is not TOTAL as you put it....I live in a foreign country with no family or friends of my own (except my son and one new friend I have made here but which he could easily demand out of my life); I don't speak the language so understanding how things work, where to go for help etc., are all major difficulties so theoretically I am at his mercy in that way; I don't work or have an income or money of my own; I don't have limits (and no, having his initial carved and also branded on me was not something I found easy to submit to for avariety of reasons, but it was his desire..and there are many other areas which are not my choice or to which I look forward which also are part of our life because he wants them); I don't get time off: I continue to serve even when ill, unless he decides to relieve me of that responsibility for a short time (and that doesn't continue until I am 100% better, nor is it something which happens everytime I am ill); he works from home most of the time so I don't get that break either; many things are now out of my diet as he doesn't like them...etc., etc.

Where is the challenge? Having the intelligence to keep up with me, being able to provide challenges for both of us, being intelligent enough to own a slave and make it a situation which serves him in more interesting and useful ways than just deciding what they are going to wear each day and what colour hair they will have, and imagination...an Owner without imagination can be deadly boring.

Catalina

 

[nh23]

First of all.. I'm not calling you, nh23, cat and kc "doormats". I have conversed with all of you I don't get how you can identify yourselves as slaves. My image of a slave is a 24/7 TPE and I mean TOTAL - like you will wear this, that ect. Breathe in, breathe out. Sorry.. I'm too intellectually lazy and I enjoy the chase too much; hence my preference for SAMs. Once the jig is up, what's the challenge? With a slave (at least my definition of it) there is no challenge - I've micromanaged people before and its usually been done by rote once I learned their needs.

Oops your ignorance is showing. TPE does not mean he tells me when to breathe. I"m not that fucking stupid. He doesn't need to watch my every move to make sure I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. I'm not sure what you mean by saying you don't know how I can identify myself as a slave. You've been telling me that I was a slave or had a slave's mindset forever.

It seems to me that your idea of a slave comes more from porn than from reality.
What's the challenge you ask? How about this, how about someone who is totally devoted to you. How about having a submissive/slave that lives for you, for your praise, your touch. You enjoy the chase because you like to play over having long term meaningful relationships. Real relationships. And that's all fine and good, if that's what you want. Whatever makes you happy. But to spout such ignorance of a lifestyle you have NO experience with, and obviously no understanding of...

 

[nh23]

I fail to see the asshattery, as long as the relationship is consensual and mutual needs are being fulfilled.

As long as it's consensual I agree. Sometimes though it's consensual, but it's not. I know that probably doesn't make sense..but to me and some of the other posters here, I'm sure it will. I've been in a relationship where I was ignored for months at a time. Put up on a shelf for when he wanted to talk to me. Come back down to meet his needs, and be put back down again. It was consensual because I let him do it to me..but God how it tore me apart. And he knew it tore me apart. And not in any way that can be thought of as good or good for me.

Hence my fears at entering into M/s. Not having the security of limits I'd refused to enforce anyway. Even thought I never enforced them...I still had the security of knowing I could have them. That's why it's so important to me to know that my Master loves me. The he will listen to my concerns. He may not change his mind about what he wants me to do..but he has listened. It goes without saying that you have to enter into any relationship D/s, M/s with a lot of trust. I trust that he's not going to do something that is going to physically hurt me in a bad way. Or totally emotionally break me.

If in your example the pyl is fine with it..then ok. Whatever makes them happy. Just saying from what I read in your post, in my mind asshat. Jaded by my own past of course. To someone else the perfect Master I suppose.

 

[rgraham666]

I suppose it's poor form for a newbie to say this, but it seems to me from what I've read in this thread that people in BDSM are as bad as writers when it comes to arguing about propriety.

Always they're going on about what 'the proper way to do things'. And how people 'don't understand'. There's always that sotto voce undercurrent that if you don't do things in just the right way you're not really part of the community.

Most tiresome. Why waste time with labels? Just do it and don't sweat propriety.

 

[MasDom]

As to the comments of Breaker_Morant.

*Grins*

See you had to create a new alt after all the shit you pulled awhile back.
Makes sense after you pretty much went looking for a challenge in so many girls in such a little time. All those promises you made in the hopes for what?
A piece of ass you could push around....

See Chris I'm not like most of these people who for their own reasons watch everything they post so as not to bother the so called comradery of lit.
I'm just going to say it like it is in my own eyes and let my hammer fall.

Beyond all these posts from you basically seeming like an attempt to just rile people up and get your attention for the moment.

It's funny you're even posting in this thread when from what I heard you know so little, and what you do know was taught to you basically from the people your sqabbling with right now. If it wasn't for them I'm sure it would be just as apparent as it was when you hit on all those people all at once, that you sir are plainly an asshat.

You're one of those Dom wanna be's who never gets the importance of looking back and learning from your past.You just give yourself a new name once you fuck up and get back to it. And just keep acting like you know shit. To be honest its getting old.

 

[nh23]

I've had many conversations with Breaker. I can assure you he does not look down upon the surrender of submissives/slaves. He seemed to be expressing what works for him, as he said, by his definition of it.

I'm sure you've talked to him many times. I'm also not sure if you're aware that Nala and I along with a few others know him very well. I'd venture to say that Bunny and I probably know the "real life Chris" better than anyone on here.

The point being he has no idea what works for him. He's making judgements on something he has no experience in.

 

[intothewoods]

well imo it is about more than commitment. that is why i don't agree with the argument that a slave is more devoted or committed than one who is not owned, because that is not what defines the M/s dynamic in my book. for an Owner, it is about responsibility and control. understanding what it means to be responsible for another human being, and accepting that responsibility. but they also need the desire and means to actively control that person, to bend or force them to their will if necessary, to shape their destiny. for the slave, it is about acceptance. truly accepting way deep down that you are no longer your own person, and that you belong to another. and that path to acceptance can be a long and bloody one.

now, let's use the analogy of modern marriage. if i were unowned and taking vows of marriage, i would view it as a lifelong commitment, but that's just it...it'd be a commitment. a vow. a promise. in the back of my mind, i would recognize the right i would have to terminate the relationship (divorce) if things got just that bad. there would always be that "break glass in case of emergency" ax there.

now as a slave otoh, my commitment, my vows, my promises alone are not what keep me bound to the relationship. if they were, then there would be a little piece of me that would always see a way out. the reason that i can see no way out is because of my Master himself, his active control over me and my life, his unwillingness to release me for any reason, the measures he has taken (financially, legally, physically, etc.) to keep me tied to him and to make the idea of successfully leaving him seem about as realistic as me walking on the moon someday.

Interesting post, and I think it strengthens the points that slaves and submissives are different because of individual preferences. You want something from your Master that I'm not looking for in a partner. Also, it's up to the individuals involved. Your Master does certain things to make his "active control" of you clear in your mind. My PYL is just not wired to have that interest.

I have read you describe your slavehood in I guess what I'd call passive words several times. The slave "accepts." It is my contention that slave and Master are equally responsible for their choices to be in the relationship. You could walk away. You have chosen not to.

 

[Kajira Callista]

What does it matter? You and Him have your own dynamic that fits you and you're happy with it. Why label it?

The thing that gets me is those who fall all over themselves to show that they as a pyl (or the PYL tries to show that their pyl is) "subbier than thou".

I'm not even into the idea of TPE, no matter how you define it because frankly, I know I'm human and may need my pyl to help me pull my head out of my ass. In my book, slave could never even think to do that.

In my book, slave could never even think
This bothers me

 

[ownedsubgal]

I have read you describe your slavehood in I guess what I'd call passive words several times. The slave "accepts." It is my contention that slave and Master are equally responsible for their choices to be in the relationship. You could walk away. You have chosen not to.

intothewoods, i understand that's what you believe, and it's what many others believe of M/s unions, but it's simply not true. it's not about choice, it's not about commitment. while the choice is important, the commitment is critical, imo it takes more than that to maintain a solid Master/slave dynamic. i cannot walk away because my life is restricted, movements monitored, there are no outside connections/people to turn to, no money, and most of all he has certain legal rights over me, very similar to the rights one might have over an elderly, senile parent. but let's say that some magical way i was able to circumvent all that, and break out...He absolutely has the means to locate me and would do so and bring me back...and the consequences from that point are better not imagined.

but of course i would never wish to leave, never choose to leave. but there's a stability and comfort in knowing that if my mind or heart changed one day and i DID wish to walk away, that option is not open to me.

 

[intothewoods]

intothewoods, i understand that's what you believe, and it's what many others believe of M/s unions, but it's simply not true. it's not about choice, it's not about commitment. while the choice is important, the commitment is critical, imo it takes more than that to maintain a solid Master/slave dynamic. i cannot walk away because my life is restricted, movements monitored, there are no outside connections/people to turn to, no money, and most of all he has certain legal rights over me, very similar to the rights one might have over an elderly, senile parent. but let's say that some magical way i was able to circumvent all that, and break out...He absolutely has the means to locate me and would do so and bring me back...and the consequences from that point are better not imagined.

but of course i would never wish to leave, never choose to leave. but there's a stability and comfort in knowing that if my mind or heart changed one day and i DID wish to walk away, that option is not open to me.

Well, that's illegal, osg, unless you consent to it. I understand that you need to feel it's not an option to leave, but if you do not choose to give up the option to leave, the entire situation is illegal.

ETA: And also, I must say that's not a matter of my "belief." It's just a fact in this country. I can't speak to other countries, obviously.

 

[intothewoods]

Speaking of laws and lawyering, I have to say that despite an earlier post, I'm not a barrister.

Although I won't lie. I would love to wear those wigs.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Well, that's illegal, osg, unless you consent to it. I understand that you need to feel it's not an option to leave, but if you do not choose to give up the option to leave, the entire situation is illegal.

ETA: And also, I must say that's not a matter of my "belief." It's just a fact in this country. I can't speak to other countries, obviously.

well we were not speaking of legalities, we were speaking of what is possible and what is not. many Masters take illegal measures in order to maintain control of their property or to keep that property tied to them. there are slaves within the lifestyle who are bound or caged for days or weeks at a time, cannot open a window much less leave. as far as consent, within this lifestyle we consent to be slaves, to living under the will of another. and there are many (Daddy and i included) who do not believe that this consent can ever be taken back, or is relevant after that final choice.

but this belief so many on the outside insist on holding onto...that's it all about choice, that one can always leave, always walk away, etc. just aggravates me to no end. because it completely disregards the reality of relationships like mine, where the Master has taken tangible means to prevent the possibility of the slave ever walking away.

 

[intothewoods]

well we were not speaking of legalities, we were speaking of what is possible and what is not. many Masters take illegal measures in order to maintain control of their property or to keep that property tied to them. there are slaves within the lifestyle who are bound or caged for days or weeks at a time, cannot open a window much less leave. as far as consent, within this lifestyle we consent to be slaves, to living under the will of another. and there are many (Daddy and i included) who do not believe that this consent can ever be taken back, or is relevant after that final choice.

but this belief so many on the outside insist on holding onto...that's it all about choice, that one can always leave, always walk away, etc. just aggravates me to no end. because it completely disregards the reality of relationships like mine, where the Master has taken tangible means to prevent the possibility of the slave ever walking away.

First of all, your version of slavery and the "lifestyle" is not the only one.

We are discussing only what is "possible"? It's possible for me to pick up the pair of scissors sitting on my desk and go stab someone with them, but I have no intention of doing so. I could also threaten my child, or beat my child enough times that he cowers in fear and would not dare to ask for help or, when he is old enough, leave. I could tell him he's worthless enough times that he believes it. I could tell him, I own you, and you'll never be able to get away from me. Anything at all is possible.

If your definition of slavery is the definition of slavery and the lifestyle, I am certainly an outsider.

 

[ownedsubgal]

First of all, your version of slavery and the "lifestyle" is not the only one.

We are discussing only what is "possible"? It's possible for me to pick up the pair of scissors sitting on my desk and go stab someone with them, but I have no intention of doing so. I could also threaten my child, or beat my child enough times that he cowers in fear and would not dare to ask for help or, when he is old enough, leave. I could tell him he's worthless enough times that he believes it. I could tell him, I own you, and you'll never be able to get away from me. It's all possible, and if your definition of slavery is the definition of slavery and the lifestyle, I am certainly an outsider.

you are not an outsider in regards to the D/s lifestyle, you are an outsider regarding M/s. you are not a slave and to my knowledge have no desire for that sort of dynamic. many (certainly not all) who are not M/s and have no yearning for it have many false views and perceptions of what can and cannot be part of a M/s dynamic. "a slave can always leave" just being one of the biggies.

of course the logistics of my relationship are not universals for all Master/slave dynamics. the only universal is slavery, owning and being owned.

my point was only that your contention that a slave can ALWAYS walk away, that it is all about choice, is simply not true. yes, many slaves CAN walk away, and are being kept only by their choice and their commitment to the union. but that is not the only way. sometimes a slave canNOT walk away, does not have that option, whether they would ever make such a choice or not. such a thing is not so difficult to arrange as some seem to think. nor does it signify some sort of evil or psychopathy for a Master to keep a slave under such conditions, for some that is simply their way.

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

...I may have missed it, but I didn't see where he referred to the chase.

Quoted directly from Breaker:

Originally Posted by Breaker_Morant
First of all.. I'm not calling you, nh23, cat and kc "doormats". I have conversed with all of you I don't get how you can identify yourselves as slaves. My image of a slave is a 24/7 TPE and I mean TOTAL - like you will wear this, that ect. Breathe in, breathe out. Sorry.. I'm too intellectually lazy and I enjoy the chase too much; hence my preference for SAMs. Once the jig is up, what's the challenge? With a slave (at least my definition of it) there is no challenge - I've micromanaged people before and its usually been done by rote once I learned their needs.

 

[nh23]

you are not an outsider in regards to the D/s lifestyle, you are an outsider regarding M/s. you are not a slave and to my knowledge have no desire for that sort of dynamic. many (certainly not all) who are not M/s and have no yearning for it have many false views and perceptions of what can and cannot be part of a M/s dynamic. "a slave can always leave" just being one of the biggies.

of course the logistics of my relationship are not universals for all Master/slave dynamics. the only universal is slavery, owning and being owned.

my point was only that your contention that a slave can ALWAYS walk away, that it is all about choice, is simply not true. yes, many slaves CAN walk away, and are being kept only by their choice and their commitment to the union. but that is not the only way. sometimes a slave canNOT walk away, does not have that option, whether they would ever make such a choice or not. such a thing is not so difficult to arrange as some seem to think. nor does it signify some sort of evil or psychopathy for a Master to keep a slave under such conditions, for some that is simply their way.

Unlike you and cat. I do have the means to walk away if I wanted to. I take care of the bills, etc. I work. I have money. I also have family fairly close. It is one of Master's rules that I can't just walk away. To me that means I can't just walk away because I made the decision to make a commitment to this relationship, and to obey him always. So can I just walk away..for me yes. But my choice to always obey him is what would keep me from that. I take that seriously. I was with my husband for 12 years, and even when things got bad I still tried. He finally had to sit me down and say it's over, we need to move on. So I agree with itw that's not an attitude found mutually in slaves.

I also have a very different relationship than either you or cat from your posts. Master does have me do things that were always limits for me, but like in cat's post where F has her continue on when she is sick etc..Master isn't like that. If I'm sick he's normally easier on me. If he wanted me to do something I would, but he chooses to let me rest. I'm not sure how to word what I mean here..maybe it's more casual of a relationship than either you or cat have..or not as intense maybe? Our dynamic is more like the one between Homburg and v.

 

[intothewoods]

<snip>

my point was only that your contention that a slave can ALWAYS walk away, that it is all about choice, is simply not true. yes, many slaves CAN walk away, and are being kept only by their choice and their commitment to the union. but that is not the only way. sometimes a slave canNOT walk away, does not have that option, whether they would ever make such a choice or not. such a thing is not so difficult to arrange as some seem to think. nor does it signify some sort of evil or psychopathy for a Master to keep a slave under such conditions, for some that is simply their way.

I am certain we have had this exchange before, but there is always at some point a choice that a slave makes. Either you had a choice in the matter, or you are being held against your will.

Also, while I do not desire an M/s relationship, I am familiar with them. It's not as though the only people I know in the lifestyle are on Lit. Furthermore, I'm not naive to the reality of how difficult it can be for a person to leave if she wanted to. I disagree, however, that it is an impossibility. I am friends with a few people who were in very difficult situations (and I do not say that lightly), and I know what they did to escape. I know what I would tell a friend to do.

 

[rida]

This has been a very interesting discussion and it has made me really ponder in my own mind about the differences, if any do exist.

I asked about whether they was a difference in committment/devotion with Masters vs Dominants for a reason.

I think in my mind it comes down to more a difference in a M/s relationship as a whole compared a D/s relationship as a whole. It's not my committment or devotion to submission, nor my Daddy's commitment or devotion to domination that makes me a submissive instead of a slave but more the entire all encompassing dynamics of a D/s relationship compared to a M/s relationship.

Yes.

We can define the "dynamic" as a whole. But what each individual puts in the dynamic and its value is all up to the individual.

Like the difference between being married and cohabitation. To me it says nothing of the level of commitment to the relationship, it only say about the structure they have chosen for themselves.

 

[Homburg]

You've been dick-waving all along - you and mis posting to each other while she's there in Va, etc, etc. I know you are proud of her and knowing her as well I do, you have alot to be proud of. She is a very great woman and has accomplished alot - this is not about you and her so much as it about how much you flaunt it.
You signature file says she belongs to you, hers says she belongs to you - fine. Great, glad for you but damn man if you two are in such constant contact then why do you need to carry it on here?

Use the ignore feature if it bothers you so much.

I'm so glad that when you were trying to buddy up with me and kiss my ass a few weeks ago that I told you that I still wasn't interested. More than most around here I am familiar with the caliber of your character. Thank you for proving me correct. And I seem to recall you changing your sig and blatantly trumpeting your relationship a while back.

And, yeah, I do flaunt my girls. I'm damned proud of both of them. Thank you for noticing. If it bothers you, I'll provide detailed instructions on the use of the Ignore feature, or, barring that, a nicely worded invitation to fuck right off.

I disagree. Getting a pyl who is headstrong, intelligent and independent to submit is more of a challenge and more rewarding - you got the pyl to change their basic nature for YOU. Plus, it would be like having a wild animal (tiger for example) for a pet; may act docile and meek most of the time but can still turn on you. Just ask Seigfried (sp?) and Roy.

With a TPE, all of that is gone.

You are bloody ignorant. Fortunately, ignorance is correctable. It simply means that you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. Given sufficient time, you might learn the difference.

And your experience with getting someone to submit is not what I, or virtually anyone else, would call extensive, sparky. Your experience with slaves and M/s is... what? You are spouting off at the mouth over something on which you know nothing material.

And what if you become abusive to the point of where they were afraid for their physical well being?

I guess that is the chance they take. It's part of being committed to the dynamic. See my example above vis a vis being fully committed in a takedown. If you do it right, there is no recovering should something go wrong. For many people, this is the reason why they won't go M/s.

Do you not see the contradiction in that post? A cruise missile is a mindless drone. It carries out a set of simplified instructions and allows for no deviation. No mid-course correction due to changes in the tactical situation w/o outside interference. Even a so called guided missile needs some sort of outside source of direction.

It is an example. A simile. You've heard of them? It was intended to show that micromanagement is not somehow core to the experience. You would know this is you had any actual experience. As is, your statements here show exactly how much real time knowledge you have on the subject.

 

[BiBunny]

I get sick of "subbier than thou," too, but, the question of devotion notwithstanding, I don't think there's really much of anything to argue about here. We just have people who are in different kinds of relationships. Like, I couldn't be in a situation like OSG or Cat. I could possibly tolerate something like nh or Homburg & Family have with the right person. Or maybe not, I dunno. Besides the "level of devotion" fiasco, I think we're essentially arguing over semantics.

My ex called me "slave" a lot. I tied him up and tortured him if he asked me to. I had no real limits outside of things he didn't want to do, and I had a safeword I never used or intended to use. If I'd wanted to leave, he'd have told me not to let the doorknob hit me in the ass on the way out. I think I've covered all the criteria that's been set forth here. We didn't fit all the preconceived notions, but, by God, I'd have done anything he asked, probably. He just never felt the need to test it.

And God knows, nobody here would ever say I'm afraid to call a spade a spade when I see it. I agree with itw, every relationship is different. If you (general you) don't think I was "good enough" to be a slave, then fine. You may not fit my criteria, either. But don't call people stupid for how they choose to live their lives.

I'll call bullshit when I see it as quick as anybody here, but I have no reason to tell someone else they're doing it wrong. Do it like you want to; just don't expect me to necessarily do it that way, especially if you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

I'm tired. I expect I'm not making much sense.