Dialogue and Punctuation Questions.

[wildsweetone]

As an Editor/Author I'd like some advice please on several aspects of punctuation in dialogue.

1. "What do you mean?" She asked.

Should the 'S' in 'she' be capitalised? I query this because I have been told that publishers prefer for the 'S' to be uppercase. However some grammer/punctuation sites I've seen indicate the rule is for the 'S' to be lowercase.



2. "Of course I will," he said, "but only if you wear the red dress."

Should the 'b' in 'but' be lower case or capitalised? Perhaps the comma after 'said' should be a full stop.


I require your informed thoughts please.

 

[KillerMuffin]

This is the "official" guide to dialogue here at Lit. Or as official is it gets when it comes to these things. It'll tell you how to format dialogue and how to punctuate it to pass Lit standards.

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=8982

The answers:

"What do you mean?" she asked.
"What do you mean," she said.

Your second example was correct.

 

[Quasimodem]

That’s a new one on me.

The interstitial referent has always been considered part of the sentence to which it refers, as far as I have ever heard, or seen.

When it breaks between phrases of a single, complete sentence, re-capitalization is not required upon the reader’s return to that sentence. In many instances, this would turn an unexceptional, grammatically-acceptable sentence into two sentence fragments.

So, where’s the sense in that?

Still, the trend is toward a shorter, punchier, less complicated sentence. This would certainly give the illusion of that, at first glance.

Study, however, would betray that it degrades the work’s literacy.

 

[Quasimodem]

Does anyone else have so much trouble
confusing the Edit & the Quote Buttons


This guy, who was part metal too,
Entered posts, which went often askew,
From failing to note
Betwixt Edit and Quote,
Then filled the gaps up with doo-doo!

 

[wildsweetone]

Does anyone else have so much trouble confusing the Edit & the Quote Buttons

no, but i have a mouse that keeps 'exiting stage left' on me... does that count?

The interstitial referent has always been considered part of the sentence to which it refers, as far as I have ever heard, or seen.

can you please say this again in basic english for me dear, i'm not so up with words of more than six letters.

 

[Quasimodem]

"I will," he promised, “explain myself.”

he promised = the interstitial referent. That part which comes in the pause between phrases of the sentence, referring the reader to which character made the remark.

“I will explain myself.” = the sentence to which the interstitial referent refers.

Straightforward?

 

[wildsweetone]

thanks dear, i understood perfectly that time. much appreciated.

Also KM, thanks for your thoughts and WS's 'How to', much appreciated also.


How does one explain the requirements/preferences of book publishers for the tags to have upper case after '?' or '!'? Where are they getting their preferences from and maybe more importantly, why? Is it a new trend or an old one? Which is more correct?

I wear my editor hat for authors who publish on Literotica and other websites and also for authors who publish in paper books.

 

[MathGirl]

Editor's costuming

I wear my editor hat for authors who publish on Literotica and other websites and also for authors who publish in paper books.

Dear WSO,
Do you, perhaps, have more ... intimate things you wear while editing? I was thinking that there might be a special item of lingeree I could wear to make me better at editing.
MG

 

[pop_54]

Hi

thanks dear, i understood perfectly that time. much appreciated.

Also KM, thanks for your thoughts and WS's 'How to', much appreciated also.


How does one explain the requirements/preferences of book publishers for the tags to have upper case after '?' or '!'? Where are they getting their preferences from and maybe more importantly, why? Is it a new trend or an old one? Which is more correct?

I wear my editor hat for authors who publish on Literotica and other websites and also for authors who publish in paper books.

If you drop the question mark you won't need to capitalise, it's the period under the mark that represents a full stop, which requires a capital begining to the next word/sentence.

If you have MS word with autospell check and auto correct turned on, it will always insert an upper case after a full stop, whether it be a lone dot or one under a punctuation mark.

I don't know about you but I don't see the point in question and exclamation marks in dialogue lines, I have yet to see a real person speaking with one hanging over their head.
Anyone with half a brain can detect that a question is being asked without this annoying extra keystroke that ruins the flow of writing anyway.

 

[KillerMuffin]

thanks dear, i understood perfectly that time. much appreciated.

Also KM, thanks for your thoughts and WS's 'How to', much appreciated also.


How does one explain the requirements/preferences of book publishers for the tags to have upper case after '?' or '!'? Where are they getting their preferences from and maybe more importantly, why? Is it a new trend or an old one? Which is more correct?

I wear my editor hat for authors who publish on Literotica and other websites and also for authors who publish in paper books.

There is no "standard" everyone does it that way, way. There are several styld guide, MLA, APA, Chicago, Oxford, etc. that you can follow where most of the time they agree, but they also disagree often enough to make an investiture on the book based on your submission needs.

For other sites and publishers, they only way you'll make sure it's correct is to tell you writer to get the publisher's guidelines. Period. You can't second guess them because it may turn out you're wrong. After that, you follow accepted practice as delineated by any one of the popular style guides for that writing style and that country. Elements of Style is a good fall back.

 

[Quasimodem]

It all depends upon which style book they are following - or making up.

Unfortunately, stylebooks are like proctologists. Every asshole has one.

This is the bane of freelance writing. Adjusting, for no sensible reason, between different publishers’ style books.

As long as you do follow a well-recognized style throughout, most editors will give you the benefit of the difference. If they accept, they will refer you to their style book and request (read: demand) that you make those changes before publication.

A few will simply reject you for not researching which style book they follow.

For some reason, the editor’s who follow the most arcane or experimental of styles, tend to be the ones who take it almost as a personal insult, when you do not suss their style before submitting.

 

[wildsweetone]

Re: Editor's costuming

Dear WSO,
Do you, perhaps, have more ... intimate things you wear while editing? I was thinking that there might be a special item of lingeree I could wear to make me better at editing.
MG

Well, sometimes I just wear my lil' cotton sox. D'yall really wanna know that?

 

[wildsweetone]

Re: Hi

I don't know about you but I don't see the point in question and exclamation marks in dialogue lines, I have yet to see a real person speaking with one hanging over their head.

Gidday Pops!
Thanks for your posting dear. I do see points in having question and exclamation marks in dialogue, basically because it's difficult at times to convey the sense of tone used in speech without them. But maybe you're right, maybe there could be less of them used if an author's skills are better with tag lines... That bears thinking about, thank you.


Okay Quasi and KM, I think what I should be doing is making my authors aware that I'm from NZ and that I will follow my own country's english grammar/punctuation rules; maybe making a note at the top of each returned story to that effect. Thus, if an author wants/expects something different from me, then they need to ask. Does that make sense?

 

[Weird Harold]

2. "Of course I will," he said, "but only if you wear the red dress."

Should the 'b' in 'but' be lower case or capitalised? Perhaps the comma after 'said' should be a full stop.

A point about your second example that hasn't been made yet.

If "of course I will, but only if you wear the red dress." is intended as a single sentence, your example is correct.

However, if it's two sentences, the second comma whould be a period and the B capitalized.

"Of course I will," he said. "But only if you wear the red dress," he added (after a pause.)

Either is correct, but the flow and meanng change slightly depending on the punctuation. I generally avoid interstitial dialogue tags entirely to avoid the confusion unless I need to indicate some sort of pause or action between sentences.

 

[Quasimodem]

. . . I should be . . . making my authors aware that I'm from NZ . . . if an author wants/expects something different from me, then they need to ask. Does that make sense?

That makes sense to me.

It’s either that, of purchase a crystal ball, study mind reading, and try to develop your precognition skills, to discover to what country’s version of English, and to which variation of style book the writer intends to submit the work.

Always assuming the author knows the answer to that question themself.

 

[wildsweetone]

Re: Re: Dialogue and Punctuation Questions.

If "of course I will, but only if you wear the red dress." is intended as a single sentence, your example is correct.

However, if it's two sentences, the second comma whould be a period and the B capitalized.

"Of course I will," he said. "But only if you wear the red dress," he added (after a pause.)

Either is correct, but the flow and meanng change slightly depending on the punctuation. I generally avoid interstitial dialogue tags entirely to avoid the confusion unless I need to indicate some sort of pause or action between sentences.

Your example is what I'm more used to seeing as an editor. I would (I think) prefer to see two sentences, but I think that's from an editor point of view. I don't actuall recall specifically noticing it in any everyday reading.

 

[wildsweetone]

That makes sense to me.

It’s either that, of purchase a crystal ball, study mind reading, and try to develop your precognition skills, to discover to what country’s version of English, and to which variation of style book the writer intends to submit the work.

See, I knew there'd be an alternative answer

*polishing the crystal ball*

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: Re: Re: Dialogue and Punctuation Questions.

Your example is what I'm more used to seeing as an editor. I would (I think) prefer to see two sentences, but I think that's from an editor point of view. I don't actuall recall specifically noticing it in any everyday reading.

My example added a dialogue tag for emphasis that I would suggest removing if I were an editor -- along with the original interstitial tag unless they were there for a very specific reason.

I think in my everyday reading, I see the two sentence version most often and convert the rest without even thinking about it.

In part, tagging dialogue is a matter of style and in editorial mode I'll question it only when it's obviously incorrect or there is a question about the effect the author is trying to achieve.

I try not to impose my style on what I edit, although it's hard not to sometimes.

 

[wildsweetone]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dialogue and Punctuation Questions.

My example added a dialogue tag for emphasis that I would suggest removing if I were an editor -- along with the original interstitial tag unless they were there for a very specific reason.

I think in my everyday reading, I see the two sentence version most often and convert the rest without even thinking about it.

In part, tagging dialogue is a matter of style and in editorial mode I'll question it only when it's obviously incorrect or there is a question about the effect the author is trying to achieve.

I try not to impose my style on what I edit, although it's hard not to sometimes.

Now had I edited your work and seen the example above, I probably would have left it alone as it's your style coming through.

The part I was mostly querying is whether the 'b' should be uppercase or not. I believe (from long ago vague memory) that I was always taught what is inside speechmarks should begin with a capital letter. It seems very odd to see the 'b' as a lower case.






aside: you know, i can't even say that 'interstitial' word. what a hell of a word. in my dictionary its meaning is: 'or of interstices'. and 'interstice' means: 'chink, crevice, gap.' huh? like that relates to writing in some way? ignore this, my brain is still mush.

 

[wildsweetone]

Pops! You said

If you drop the question mark you won't need to capitalise, it's the period under the mark that represents a full stop, which requires a capital begining to the next word/sentence.

That's it! That's what I got taught in school. The exact same phrasing, it's the period under the mark etc. Perfect common sense. Sorry, I missed this earlier.




Now for the next question.

example:

“You don’t appear to have gotten any breakfast yet!” Fred stated, "are you sure you want to do this right now?

To my way of thinking I would change the comma to a full stop thus making two complete sentences. My reasoning is that the first part of his dialogue is a statement and the second a question.

Am I right?

 

[Weird Harold]

“You don’t appear to have gotten any breakfast yet!” Fred stated, "are you sure you want to do this right now?

My reasoning is that the first part of his dialogue is a statement and the second a question.

Am I right?

Yes you are. the dialogue tag is NOT an interstitial (in- ter-STISH-ul, meaning of or in the interstices or gaps in a sentence.) It's a simple dialogue tag on the exclamatory sentence (which contradicts the exclamation point) and not between the two parts of single sentence.

 

[Rainbow Skin]

"What do you mean?" She asked.

Always, invariably wrong. No publisher ever capitalizes there, not one who has ever managed to get a book to the end of the production process. I have never seen this in any printed writing from any country.

Weird Harold gave the correct reasoning for:

"Of course I will," he said, "but only if you wear the red dress."
"Of course I will," he said. "But only if you wear the red dress," he added.

The intrusive ," he said breaks into either

"Of course I will, but only if you wear the red dress."
or
"Of course I will. But only if you wear the red dress."

Again, these conventions are pretty much universal in books. I defy you to find a book printed anywhere that does it any other way but one of those two. Of course, the double quotes are usually single in books outside the US, but that choice doesn't affect any of the other conventions.

"You don’t appear to have gotten any breakfast yet!" Fred stated, "are you sure you want to do this right now?"

No, definitely not, for same reason as with 'but'. It doesn't come from
"You don’t appear to have gotten any breakfast yet! are you sure you want to do this right now?"
but from two sentences
"You don’t appear to have gotten any breakfast yet! Are you sure you want to do this right now?"

Inserting speakers doesn't change the capitalization of the quoted parts.

One important thing: don't rely on 'I was taught in school that...', because it's quite likely you were taught wrong or you're misremembering. Go and find a printed book from your shelves, from a reputable publisher, and scan the dialogue till you find examples that are exactly like your present case. Conventions in quoting speech don't really differ at all by date or place.*

Oh, and you're from New Zealand? Then you want 'got', not the Americanism 'gotten'.

*They do differ for quoting non-speech: my previous sentence would in the USA be punctuated thus. Then you want "got," not the Americanism "gotten."

 

[MathGirl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dialogue and Punctuation Questions.

i can't even say that 'interstitial' word. what a hell of a word. in my dictionary its meaning is: 'or of interstices'. and 'interstice' means: 'chink, crevice, gap.' huh? like that relates to writing in some way? ignore this, my brain is still mush.

Dear WSO,
It just means "in between." Interstices are places in between other stuff.
MG

 

[wildsweetone]

Weird Harold

Yes you are. the dialogue tag is NOT an interstitial (in- ter-STISH-ul, meaning of or in the interstices or gaps in a sentence.) It's a simple dialogue tag on the exclamatory sentence (which contradicts the exclamation point) and not between the two parts of single sentence.

Thank you.

Rainbow Skin
Thanks for joining the thread.

"What do you mean?" She asked.

Always, invariably wrong. No publisher ever capitalizes there, not one who has ever managed to get a book to the end of the production process.

Unfortunately I don't believe this to be true now. Yes I thought the same as you, that no publisher capitalises there, however I've been informed by another author that some publishers prefer it. (Hence my query.)

One important thing: don't rely on 'I was taught in school that...', because it's quite likely you were taught wrong or you're misremembering. Go and find a printed book from your shelves, from a reputable publisher, and scan the dialogue till you find examples that are exactly like your present case. Conventions in quoting speech don't really differ at all by date or place.*

You are right here, my memory is lousy at the best of times. However it was with perfect clarity that I recalled Pop's comment on the dot beneath a question mark or exclamation mark as being taught it was considered a full stop (period).

I understand your comment about checking out other published books for punctuation consistencies. Thank you.

Oh, and you're from New Zealand? Then you want 'got', not the Americanism 'gotten'.

Yes in New Zealand we write 'got', we also write 'gotten' in informal communication and seem to have picked up 'gotten' in informal speech too.

I gave the example of something written by another author that was ready for my perusal as an editor, the words themselves are part of that author's style. I would not recommend a change to the words unless they were completely out of character for the particular character who spoke them within the story.

Just because I am a New Zealander and we are predominantly an English speaking country, does not necessarily mean I would convey my own preferences to another author's work.

This thread was begun because of differing information I have received from several sources. I am editing for authors who have work for both websites and paper publishers. I would like to get my own information correct before passing on incorrect suggestions.

Again, thanks for joining the thread.

aside to: MathGirl Thanks! Fancy coming and sitting beside me to explain to this dimwit just what the heck I'm meant to be doing here? Sometimes I wonder. lol

 

[Rainbow Skin]

If there's a book publisher that doesn't know basic punctuation, I would suggest that an author would be well advised to avoid that publisher. It can't redound to the author's credit to be associated with them.