Ethics and Erotica

[SimonDoom]

The question "Should I write that?" often arises in this forum, but usually in the context of threads started for other purposes, so efforts to answer this question, and to engage with it, often come across as unwelcome intrusions on someone else's thread.

I'd like to start a thread that invites people to discuss this question in a non-adversarial and non-political way, so contributors can say their piece without being insulted and can keep an open mind about others' perspectives.

I'd also strongly encourage anyone to introduce evidence that's relevant to the issue.

My goal is to create a dialogue where the issues are engaged with in an interesting way, rather than just "I believe this" and "I believe that."

The idea is for this to be a conversation about creative ethics, rather than a debate over what the law actually is or what Laurel's rules allow and forbid. Laurel has her own preferences for what she does and doesn't want to allow and as the owner of a private website she has the right to do that. I'm not interested in using this thread as a soap box to praise or complain about Laurel's rules.

If you want to participate, please be mindful of the site's rule against trolling and making personal attacks. Please do not accuse others of being bad people because they want to read or write material that you do not. Stick to the non-personal issues raised by the thread.

I'll throw out some questions to get the thread going:

1. Do you accept the idea that there are ethical limits on what kind of erotica you should publish? Why or why not? What are those limits?

2. Do you believe that your stories are likely to have an impact beyond the space of this forum? What kind of impact? Why do you believe what you believe on this question?

3. Do you have any personal background or knowledge, or professional experience, that bears on the question?

4. Do you know of sources of evidence or analysis elsewhere that bear on this question in a significant way?

5. Are you open to having your mind changed on this question?

6. When you write stories, do you do so with an ethical purpose in mind?

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

2. Do you believe that your stories are likely to have an impact beyond the space of this forum? What kind of impact? Why do you believe what you believe on this question?

In general, I think we all have ethical boundaries. I've written a few stories to try and stretch those with varying success and levels of comfort.
That's a personal battle we each have to fight with each story.

As for your secoind point noted above, my first story in teh T/CD space recevied these anonymous comments:

"As someone currently going through transistion I know this is way too picturesque to be real but it still put a huge smile on my face a few times and made me cry a few more. Thank you."

"OMG!!!
It made me cry as I sit thinking about how my "DAUGHTER'S life has been since she startered her life altering choice. We have supported her all the way along and know she has many years of struggle ahead of her.
This story gives me hope she will find her Tommy one day.
"

These were the first of many such comments over all of my T/CD stories. All I can take from them is that a positive voice of support and encouragement is needed. I'm happy to provide it.

 

[AlinaX]

One of the things I love about Lit is that my stories actually get read - sometimes by thousands of people. Even allowing for partial reads and repeats. My words are being read, and while, yes, the primary purpose is one of incidental pleasure, there is a power in the written word, and with power there comes responsibility.

Characters can be saints and assholes, but beyond the story itself are the views of the author. It's fun to write about someone being transformed into a blonde bimbo, but if I do it in away that says all blondes are dumb and bimbos deserve to be treated like shit then the reader will pick up on that attitude, consciously or not.

One story will not make a difference to anyone, but if hundreds of stories all have the same biases and assumptions, there will be a corrosive impact on the readers.

I wonder how many readers come to Lit thinking that Incest is terrible, gradually decide it's fun so long as it's a fantasy, and eventually start wondering if maybe it's not such a bad thing.

 

[onehitwanda]

there is a power in the written word, and with power there comes responsibility.

+1.

1. Do you accept the idea that there are ethical limits on what kind of erotica you should publish? Why or why not? What are those limits?

Yes. As in real life, I believe that consensual acts between people⁛ should be permitted provided they harm† no other living thing.

2. Do you believe that your stories are likely to have an impact beyond the space of this forum? What kind of impact? Why do you believe what you believe on this question?

Judging by the messages I receive, they do. Readers cry, and laugh, and write to me that I've inspired them. So hopefully a positive impact, based on what evidence I have.

3, 4, 5

None, No, Less likely than the odds that I'll give live birth to the second coming of Jesus Christ.

6. When you write stories, do you do so with an ethical purpose in mind?

No. I'm here to capture scenes in my head. I'm not a teacher or a prophet or a high priestess (on days other than Tuesdays). If you abide by my short list of rules‡ we'll get on fine.

I don't believe in preaching my morals. I outgrew that (thankfully) in my late twenties. People are people, no more and no less. If my stories make them kinder, or more tolerant, well, that's a nice thing. But I'm not setting out with that aim. I just want to sing my song and then, maybe, listen to others' for a bit.

⁛ where I say person, interpret that as sexually active person old enough to make informed choices and not get hurt - it's a complex nuance, I'm sure you'll manage
† this does not cover offense e.g. I'm offended that multiple women have (seemingly) made the beast with two backs with Michael Gove; but unfortunately they should be permitted to make such terrible decisions.
‡ don't hurt animals, accept that cats are awesome, be nice to people where possible, don't desecrate the planet, and don't be an unwarranted cunt.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

‡ don't hurt animals, accept that cats are awesome, be nice to people where possible, don't desecrate the planet, and don't be an unwarranted cunt.

Can I be a warranted cunt, if I get your permission first?

 

[onehitwanda]

Can I be a warranted cunt, if I get your permission first?

only on Tuesdays.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

only on Tuesdays.

Totally unrelated, but is Lost Girl of Avignon going to have sequels? Loved that story.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I'd also strongly encourage anyone to introduce evidence that's relevant to the issue.

My goal is to create a dialogue where the issues are engaged with in an interesting way, rather than just "I believe this" and "I believe that."

Surely my personal ethics are based on my beliefs, no external evidence needed?

I think I know where you're coming from with this (show me that fantasy fiction might lead to bad things), but I find this view that one must justify one's belief with evidence to be problematic.

I don't believe in God, but I have no evidence for that non belief.

Setting that aside, I'm open about my notion of "socially responsible erotica", which I first articulated after I wrote Rope and Veil, and was moved and humbled by the reader response to that story.

For those who don't know the story, it's about a woman with a broken back, and the able-bodied man who falls for her. So it explores sex when the "normal" able-bodied sexual response is no longer there. It struck a chord amongst people with disabilities, and many thanked me for giving them an erotic voice. That affected me, deeply, as a writer.

Someone else said of my stories, "Your stories give me a safe haven, a place where I can escape my life for a couple for hours, where I can enjoy your characters being kind to each other, and I can enjoy my body and its arousal for a little while."

It made me realise that if you can write erotica that does have a positive, affirmative impact on someone, to be their "erotic voice" or their "safe haven", that maybe the opposite is also true: that if you write violent, dark content, that might affect someone in a negative way. I've never said that that person might go and do something terrible (which is what the usual debate descends to), but if it's doing something terrible in that person's head, was it really necessary?

Which is why I don't subscribe to the notion, "It's only fiction, people can tell the difference between it and reality." I think that's a cop out. That's people saying, let me indulge myself, I'm not responsible for how people might react to my writing. It's me saying, maybe you should think about it, just a little, because if words can have the power for good, just maybe they can have the power for bad.

People will always say, "Isn't it great when my writing turns someone on!" but will also be keen to say, "Well, that wasn't my writing, he's just a sick fucker, thinking dark thoughts while reading my 'it's just a fantasy' writing."

You can't have the white without black, you can't have it both ways. You don't need to look very far, even in this forum, to see that there are plenty of folk who might need a bit of white in their lives.

Be kind to your readers, because maybe, just maybe, your words do affect them. Which is why I write affirmative erotica.

 

[Paul_Chance]

1. Do you accept the idea that there are ethical limits on what kind of erotica you should publish? Why or why not? What are those limits?

Yes, but...

I think the ethical limits on me are personal and subjective. I do not believe there are ethical limitations that are universal or objective. We develop our ethical framework from the bottom up, not the other way. First, we learn ethics from our family. Then, we learn ethics from our early cultural experiences. Finally, we continue to hone them until they "fit" based on our perception of the world and of the culture we move in, which may or may not contain a perception of the universal.

For me, in my writing, that ethical framework begins and ends in one place: Informed Consent. Any two human beings, with agency, are free to do (or have done) whatever they have consented too. I am free to imagine it and write about it. The readers are free to read it or not.

2. Do you believe that your stories are likely to have an impact beyond the space of this forum? What kind of impact? Why do you believe what you believe on this question?

Yes. As others have said, the written word has power. Sometimes, if we're lucky, a reader will comment on the impact we've had on them. For the most part, if we have any impact on them, we simply never know. I believe this from two things. Firsts, simple observation of the world around me, and second, from the impact what other people have writtten has on me. There have been stories told (not on lit) that literally changed how I lead my life.

3. Do you have any personal background or knowledge, or professional experience, that bears on the question?

On the personal background, I could simply list the books and stories that changed my life. It may be a radical assumption, but I assume that anyone who reads can quickly construct a similar list. Professionally, I have a lot of experience in the practical application of ethical frameworks.

4. Do you know of sources of evidence or analysis elsewhere that bear on this question in a significant way?

Simply google "influence of pornography" and you'll find many articles, mostly pop-culture, but also a lot of academic stuff. It's a well-tread area of research. I can summarize it fairly simply. Yes, it has an influence. Sometimes that influence is positive, sometimes that influence is negative.

5. Are you open to having your mind changed on this question?

Sure, I'm open to having my mind changed on anything. There is nothing in this life that I'd say without the spoken or unspoken qualifier of "but then, I could be wrong". That even includes my own personal experiences, which are interpreted through the limited lens of perspective.

6. When you write stories, do you do so with an ethical purpose in mind?

Explicitly, almost never. I wrote an incest story and part of what I tried to capture was a brother and sister having fully consensual, informed, and responsible sex. Ethically, if that was the scenario, then that is their personal decision through their agency, based on their ethical framework.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

There is something seriously wrong with the morality of a person who doesn't at least ponder about the possible consequences of the stories they present to the public. That being said, I do believe in freedom of speech and thought, and in that sense, I feel that there should be no censorship in fiction.

One should keep an open mind towards the possibility of some proof emerging, though. Once there is some solid proof, one should be aware of the implications of their writing and take some responsibility.
Having in mind the reality of the world we are living in, what I said above is just a huge sack of horseshit, of course. We are all already responsible for far worse things than our writing could ever produce. We should stop pretending otherwise and just enjoy our freedom to write whatever we want. Nothing we write can compare to how cruel reality is, no world we create can be as bad as ours.

 

[Rob_Royale]

Wow, you guys think way harder about this stuff than I do.

But to answer some of the questions.
1. Do you accept the idea that there are ethical limits on what kind of erotica you should publish? Why or why not? What are those limits?
Of course. I consider myself a moral person. I ascribe to no religious set of rules, so beyond society's rules, I follow a simple moral code - be a decent human being. And to that, I won't write anything a decent human being would find unacceptable. Nor would it really cross my mind to even do so. And I follow the Literotica rules which pretty much fall along the same lines.

2. Do you believe that your stories are likely to have an impact beyond the space of this forum? What kind of impact? Why do you believe what you believe on this question?
No. they're just sexy stories. Fun today, but tomorrow will be lost in the digital wasteland of the internet. Like a sand castle, an ice sculpture, or sidewalk chalk art. I believe it because I'm a realist.

6. When you write stories, do you do so with an ethical purpose in mind?
No. I just write smut for the purpose of (hopefully) exciting the reader. That's as far as my literary ambitions go.

 

[AG31]

Thanks, SD, good thread.

I'm a very strong believer in accepting whatever happens to push your erotic buttons. I don't think there's any future in fighting "bad thoughts." But emphasis on "think." It's not that I know. In my own psyche I'm totally convinced that acceptance is a good thing. And a persistent thread in my own S&M fantasies and writings is the self acceptance on the part of the MCs.

My conviction (with the caveat that it is a belief, not knowledge) that thoughts should be accepted has extended to the universally banned themes in erotic lit sites, pedophilia, bestiality, and sexualized gore or death. None of them happen to push my own buttons, but...

pedophilia - I've toyed with the idea of writing a story about an admirable man who finds that his fantasies involve sex with children. But he has no impulse at all to carry them out in real life. He's good and self disicplined and totally rejects such behavior. The vignette would be to describe how he accepts that about himself. I'll never get close to thinking about actually writing such a story as I know it would never get published. But I'm happy to air them here.

bestiality - There's a really well written book, available on Amazon*, by Billierosie called The Beast in Me., all stories about human/animal sex. It didn't push any of my buttons, but I read it because I really like some of her other stuff. I have no idea whether the horse I read about would have suffered in real life, but I'm glad the book was written and published.

Sexualized gore/death - I've never seen such literature. No desire to read it. But the principle would apply. Self acceptance is a high value. Acting out in real life, is, of course, beyond all limits.

Now we get to the question of whether, by writing about this, we encourage such forbidden behavior IRL. I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that if that were the guiding principle in whether or not to write and publish fiction, thousands of main stream stories would be banned. We would spend endless court cases debating whether such stories were meant to excite the reader in some way, or give them clever criminal ideas.

As "evidence" of society's willingness to accept the risks, there's the incident where after 9/11 the the government (Homeland Security? The Defense Dept??) invited a bunch of thriller writers to a confab where they were asked to come up with scenarios that might be future threats. I've heard about this enough times to think it's true, but in this age of conspiracy theories I can't swear to it.

As to the question of whether entertaining such forbidden fantasies encourages playing them out in real life, I just don't know the answer. I expect there are academic studies that purport to tell us whether we have a chicken or an egg situation with any given person. But in my own case I'm always struck by how isolated my S&M fantasies are from real life. I fantasized being raped my whole life and it has absolutely zilch to do with my very vanilla real sex life. Feeling guilty about those fantasies would have improved nothing, for me or for society.

* It certainly used to be available on Amazon. I can't find it there now. The Goodreads link to Amazon for it fails.

 

[AG31]

I wonder how many readers come to Lit thinking that Incest is terrible, gradually decide it's fun so long as it's a fantasy, and eventually start wondering if maybe it's not such a bad thing.

There may be academic "answers" to that, but I would suggest that the same question could be raised about the budding bank robbers who were pushed over the edge into action by "that movie." Whatever the answer, to that, it's clear that society has decided to take the risk and allow fiction free reign.

 

[Bazzle]

Yes, stories have ethics.
If there wasn't, we would have under 18's in stories.

This site has such a broad spectrum of readership and writers.

There are two things at play on this site and from a male perspective it probably depends on if you are thinking with your balls or your brain?

My stories are all about addiction. Ethically something not good. Many people suffer from it. It's not something that I should be glorifying. So if I engaged brain I shouldn't write it. Even if my characters are not actually doing anything illegal?

But I write with my balls being involved. What stimulates me?

Which is probably not ethically good.

B

 

[alohadave]

I wonder how many readers come to Lit thinking that Incest is terrible, gradually decide it's fun so long as it's a fantasy, and eventually start wondering if maybe it's not such a bad thing.

Speaking only for myself, my IRL feelings about it have not changed a bit in the many years that I've been consuming incest porn/stories. I don't find myself attracted to my mother (or another other family member-besides my uncle's wife, but there's no blood relation there and she's been hot since I was a kid) from reading incest stories.

Fantasy stories are one thing. But IRL, it's not at all appealing.

 

[CockSparrow]

I quite liked many of SamScribble’s stories. So I contacted him and asked if he had any tips he might share. He basically said that every writer finds his or her own way. But there were five things that he found almost universally helpful.

Tell your story clearly and simply.

Allow your characters to reveal themselves.

Do not concern yourself with the predilections of the Reverend Robert Lowth and others of his ilk.

Do not concern yourself with educating the reader.

If your story makes you smile, consider posting it: it might make others smile too.

 

[AG31]

Surely my personal ethics are based on my beliefs, no external evidence needed?

I think I know where you're coming from with this (show me that fantasy fiction might lead to bad things), but I find this view that one must justify one's belief with evidence to be problematic.

I don't believe in God, but I have no evidence for that non belief.

I don't think @SimonDoom is asking about your personal beliefs regarding what is good and what is bad. I think he's asking about whether you believe you need to take responsibility for your stories' affecting real life behavior.

Setting that aside, I'm open about my notion of "socially responsible erotica", which I first articulated after I wrote Rope and Veil, and was moved and humbled by the reader response to that story.

I haven't seen your thoughts on "socially responsible erotica." Certainly Rope and Veil is a benefit to society. But I assume you're not advocating that sort of direct socially responsible benefit in all of our stories?

Someone else said of my stories, "Your stories give me a safe haven, a place where I can escape my life for a couple for hours, where I can enjoy your characters being kind to each other, and I can enjoy my body and its arousal for a little while."

You're really fortunate that what pushes your buttons is really, really holistic sex. Your stories could be used by a sex therapist. Intimacy should be a part of sex in real life. But the fact is that places like Lit. wouldn't exist if there weren't a whole universe of other, weirder things that push people's buttons. Some of them are OK in real life. Some should be absolutely forbidden in real life. But just because they work in fantasy land does not mean that everyone who experiences them wants to act out. I'm really glad your kind of sex story exists. But I can't believe that you're advocating this standard for everyone????

Which is why I don't subscribe to the notion, "It's only fiction, people can tell the difference between it and reality." I think that's a cop out. That's people saying, let me indulge myself, I'm not responsible for how people might react to my writing. It's me saying, maybe you should think about it, just a little, because if words can have the power for good, just maybe they can have the power for bad.

OK. So you ARE saying that everyone should have the same kind of buttons pushed as you do??? Or stop writing?????

Be kind to your readers, because maybe, just maybe, your words do affect them. Which is why I write affirmative erotica.

Like I said. Aren't you lucky???

 

[Lumiere_Amie]

Can I be a warranted cunt, if I get your permission first?

 

[AG31]

One should keep an open mind towards the possibility of some proof emerging, though. Once there is some solid proof, one should be aware of the implications of their writing and take some responsibility.

A world where bank caper heist movies are banned.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Ethics and Erotica​

I’ll post a more considered response later. And I will try to be very considered.

But right now I have to finish this short story about a woman who uses her OF page to procure strangers to gang bang her bareback in order to feed her cum addiction and impregnation fetish.

Her OF page is called Cressie Has 3 Holes. It’s the most unrestrained thing I have written in ages, possibly ever. Quite cathartic.

I think this is relevant to the discussion.

Emily

 

[AwkwardlySet]

A world where bank caper heist movies are banned.

Robbing a bank doesn't really fall under morally wrong

 

[SimonDoom]

Surely my personal ethics are based on my beliefs, no external evidence needed?

I think that's too simple.

Ethics is not personal taste. When you say, "These are my ethics," you are saying, "These are rules I believe all people should follow." If you're talking about rules that only you want to follow, those aren't ethical rules. They're just matters of taste and personal preference, like "I prefer my coffee with cream." That's not an ethical rule. Some might say, "You shouldn't eat pizza with pineapple" is an ethical rule, but as sympathetic as I am to this as a matter of taste, it's just a matter of taste.

For example, is it ethical to use products that contain aerosol?

Personal, subjective beliefs provide no guidance on that question. Facts do. If we know, as science tells us, that aerosol products cause harm to the ozone layer, and that this damage could adversely affect the welfare of all people, then we have an ethical issue. But the ethical issue doesn't come up unless we have an empirical basis for believing that our action might cause harm to others without their consent. Searching your soul won't tell you whether it will.

There's another nontrivial consideration. Suppose we DO know that our story will be repugnant to 90% of the reading populace, but that 10% will like it a lot. Do we have an ethical obligation not to publish it? I would say no, because it is perfectly ethical to be part of a minority and to have and to express and to share minority points of view with others who have the same point of view. The members of the majority are perfectly free not to read our works.

I don't think you disagree with me on that point, as I have phrased it, so then the question becomes, what exactly is your position? How do you distinguish when it's ethical to publish a story that will offend many people and when it's not ethical? My challenge to you, and to others who think similarly, is that I don't see a principle at work. I see an endlessly slippery slope, that is sure to be abused once anyone appropriates to themselves the right to say when it's ethical to publish a story and when it's not.

This is the basic problem with trying to ground the ethics of speech or art on one's own personal beliefs--your personal beliefs don't matter more than anyone else's, and it doesn't matter whether you are in the majority. An ethical rule requires a more objective basis than that. That's where my call for evidence comes into play.

 

[vagrantx]

snip

 

[AG31]

Some might say, "You shouldn't eat pizza with pineapple" is an ethical rule,

Well.... This does seem to cross the boundary. Normally I disapprove of hi-jacking a really good thread, but this seems to rise to the level of "immoral." My grandson asks for pineapple on pizza. I'm thinking about disowning him. Or at least having a serious talk...

 

[ElectricBlue]

I don't think @SimonDoom is asking about your personal beliefs regarding what is good and what is bad. I think he's asking about whether you believe you need to take responsibility for your stories' affecting real life behavior.

Simon has often said, cite evidence for an opinion, which is fair, but for an ethical stance, a personal belief structure, a world view, empirical evidence is irrelevant. I am who I am, I don't need to prove myself to anyone.

I haven't seen your thoughts on "socially responsible erotica." Certainly Rope and Veil is a benefit to society. But I assume you're not advocating that sort of direct socially responsible benefit in all of our stories?

Generally, yes, I do, in all of my stories. Words have power - I do believe (no evidence, it's a belief), therefore, that writers should at least think for a microsecond beyond themselves. By publishing, you're putting words out there, so think about what you're writing about. It might not matter at all, but at least think about it, because it just might.

That's all I'm saying here. Think about the affect your words might have on other people, because you're part of the society we all live in.

You're really fortunate that what pushes your buttons is really, really holistic sex. Your stories could be used by a sex therapist. Intimacy should be a part of sex in real life.

That's been said to me many times, firstly by therapists working in the disability sector (in the context of Rope and Veil, mostly), most recently by a blogger who works with male impotency as a consequence of prostate removal. I got a mention in a podcast (well, my writing did). So yes, that feedback has affected my views about my own writing, and influences what I write.

But the fact is that places like Lit. wouldn't exist if there weren't a whole universe of other, weirder things that push people's buttons. Some of them are OK in real life. Some should be absolutely forbidden in real life. But just because they work in fantasy land does not mean that everyone who experiences them wants to act out. I'm really glad your kind of sex story exists. But I can't believe that you're advocating this standard for everyone????

I've never suggested that people will act out "forbidden stuff". I'm not asking that people adopt my standard.

What I am asking is that people think beyond themselves and their own needs and desires for just a moment, and consider the possible impact on others, who might be less well equipped than you, when living their lives. When reading your words.

This forum frequently demonstrates the impact of triggers on people with mental health issues, fragile people. Frequently and often, but many people seem to be blind to that.

My simple premise is that words can have power, so writers should take some responsibility for that (on the assumption that they write powerful words).

OK. So you ARE saying that everyone should have the same kind of buttons pushed as you do??? Or stop writing?????

Of course not. People can push their own buttons however they want, but if they going to push someone else's buttons, at least think about it first, and get out of their own head for a second.

Triggers are important to people who get triggered - writers should, I believe (that word again), know how their content might trigger other people, and at least be aware of the potential for harm.

Like I said. Aren't you lucky???

People have said, "You have a gift, you have a gift for writing," (the safe haven), and "Thank you for the gift of this story, thank you both for sharing."

That is, people have thought some of my fiction was real life - when it wasn't. Which is evidence enough for me that some people cannot separate fiction from reality, which is why I apply the ethics to my writing that I do.