Devil Bush?

[Zeb_Carter]

Hugo is a petty thief, Bush will be a footnote in history, Clinton is a liar and an adulter.

What Hugo said is an insult to all America and should be taken that way by all of us. Bush is not perfect, but who is? Right now he is our leader and holds an office to which he was elected by the people of this country. An insult given him is an insult given us.

 

[cloudy]

Hugo is a petty thief, Bush will be a footnote in history, Clinton is a liar and an adulter.

What Hugo said is an insult to all America and should be taken that way by all of us. Bush is not perfect, but who is? Right now he is our leader and holds an office to which he was elected by the people of this country. An insult given him is an insult given us.

Um, no.

Bush is an idiot, so why should anyone take seriously an insult thrown at him by another country? No one can insult him worse than people here do.

Blind patriotism is worse than idiotic.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Um, no.

Bush is an idiot, so why should anyone take seriously an insult thrown at him by another country? No one can insult him worse than people here do.

Blind patriotism is worse than idiotic.

And lack of partriotism is just as idiotic.

 

[rgraham666]

Dissent is patriotism, Zeb.

 

[cantdog]

I loved the sulfur thing, though.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Dissent is patriotism, Zeb.

That depends on where that dissent takes you. If it leads to freedom and a land ruled by law, then you are correct. If is leads to oppression and tyranny then I would have to say it isn't.

I guess it all depends on your view though.

 

[Pure]

Clinton is a liar and an adulter.

OK, nice World Net summary. So the mud sticks, does it?

Let me try to capture the Bush legacy.

GWB, a once in a century conjunction, in the presidency, of dangerous stupidity, bungling, corruption, and abuse of power.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

...Let me try to capture the Bush legacy.

GWB, a once in a century conjunction, in the presidency, of dangerous stupidity, bungling, corruption, and abuse of power.

Gee, you could put any presidents name in there from Kennedy to Bush and that statement would hold true. They all had their faults, they all made mistakes, they all abused their power, they were all corrupt and bungling in someones view

So what else is new?

 

[Pure]

well, it's little more specific than 'cheated,' 'got blowjobs,' which fits half of humanity.

 

[cloudy]

Dissent is patriotism, Zeb.

Exactly.

Unfortunately, Zeb sees patriotism as blindly following whatever idiot happens to be in power at the time, no matter what he does, or how hated he makes the people of this country.

Patriotism is to a country, not to it's idiotic leadership.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

What is patriotism

Patriotism is not love of country, if by “country” you mean scenery — amber waves of grain, purple mountains’ majesty and the like. Almost every country has pretty collections of rocks, water, and stuff that people grow and eat. If that’s what patriotism is all about, then Americans have precious little for which we can claim any special or unique love. And surely, patriotism cannot mean giving one’s life for a river or a mountain range.

Emma Goldman, in a 1911 essay, rightly disparaged this parochial, location-based concept. That kind of patriotism, she said, “assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others.” Like Emma Goldman, I’d like to think there’s something about being a patriotic American that’s far removed from the young Nazi soldier who marched into battle for “the Fatherland.” After all, he thought he was patriotic too.

Patriotism is not blind trust in anything our leaders tell us or do. That’s just stupidity, and it replaces some very lofty concepts about the true meaning of the word with the mindless goose-stepping of cowardly sycophants.

Patriotism is not picnics, fireworks, or a day off work. At best, those are outward manifestations of something which could be patriotism, but it might also for some be nothing more than a desire to have a little fun.

Patriotism is not simply showing up to vote. You need to know a lot more about what motivates a voter before you judge his patriotism. He might be casting a ballot because he just wants something at someone else’s expense. Maybe he doesn’t much care where the politician he’s hiring gets it. Remember Dr. Johnson’s wisdom: “Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels.” Others have wisely counseled that an ill-informed people can easily vote a democratic republic into bankruptcy and oblivion.

Waving the flag can be an outward sign of patriotism, but let’s not cheapen the term by ever suggesting that it’s anything more than a sign. And while it’s always fitting to mourn those who lost their lives in its defense, that too does not fully define patriotism.

People in every country and in all times have expressed feelings of something we flippantly call “patriotism” but that just begs the question. What is this thing, anyway? Can it be so cheap and meaningless that a few gestures make you patriotic?

Not in my book.

I subscribe to a patriotism rooted in ideas that in turn gave birth to a country, but it’s those ideas that I think of when I’m feeling patriotic. I think a patriotic American is one who reveres the ideas that motivated the Founders and compelled them, in many instances, to put their lives, fortunes and sacred honor on the line.

What ideas? Read the Declaration of Independence again. Or, if you’re like most Americans these days, read it for the very first time. It’s all there. All men are created equal. They are endowed not by government but by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. Premier among those rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Government must be limited to protecting the peace and preserving our liberties, and doing so through the consent of the governed. It’s the right of a free people to rid themselves of a government that becomes destructive of those ends, as our Founders did in a supreme act of courage and defiance more than two hundred years ago.

Call it freedom. Call it liberty. Call it whatever you want, but it’s the bedrock on which this nation was founded and from which we stray at our peril. It’s what has defined us as Americans. It’s what almost everyone who has ever lived on this planet has yearned for, though only a few have ever risen above selfishness, ignorance, or barbarism to attain it. It makes life worth living, which means it’s worth fighting and dying for.

I know that this concept of patriotism puts an “American” spin on the term. But I don’t know how to be patriotic for Uganda or Paraguay. I hope the Ugandans and Paraguayans have lofty ideals they celebrate when they feel patriotic, but whether or not they do is a question you’ll have to ask them. I can only tell you what patriotism means to me as an American.

I understand that America has often fallen short of the superlative ideas expressed in the Declaration. That hasn’t diminished my reverence for them, nor has it dimmed my hope that future generations of Americans will be re-inspired by them. Whatever our shortcomings, the fact remains that our Founders bequeathed us a marvelous mechanism whereby we can fix those flaws and perhaps someday shepherd our form of government to as close to perfection as may be humanly possible. This brand of patriotism, in fact, gets me through the roughest and most cynical of times.

My patriotism did not flag when one president debased the Oval Office with a young intern, or when another one covered up an illegal break-in. My patriotism is never affected by any politician’s failures, or any shortcoming of some government policy, or any slump in the economy or stock market. I’ve never felt my patriotism to be for sale or up for a vote. I never cease to get that “rush” that comes from watching Old Glory flapping in the breeze, no matter how far today’s generations have departed from the original meaning of those stars and stripes. No outcome of any election, no matter how adverse, makes me feel any less devoted to the ideals our Founders put to pen in 1776.

Indeed, as life’s experiences mount, the wisdom of what giants like Jefferson and Madison bestowed upon us becomes ever more apparent to me. I get more fired up than ever to help others come to appreciate the same things.

Freedom — understanding it, living it, and teaching it to posterity. That, my fellow Americans, is what patriotism should mean to each of us.


Source - ?

 

[Ootpic]

Something from last winter which I bet Roxanne doesn’t know, or tries hard to forget:

New York gets Venezuela cheap oil
December 7, 2005
BBC News


An oil company controlled by the Venezuelan government has made its first delivery of cut-price heating oil to the Bronx borough of New York City.

The firm, Citgo, is supplying fuel to thousands of people in deprived areas in co-operation with charities.

The initiative started last month with the delivery of heating oil to Boston.

It was announced in August by Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez - a vocal critic of President George Bush.

Under the deal, Citgo said it would provide heating oil at a 40% discount to fill in tanks at properties owned by three non-profit housing corporations in the Bronx.

About 8,000 tenants from 75 buildings will benefit from the project, according to the company and the corporations.

Deliveries will continue through the winter months until 1 April.

In October, 12 Democratic US senators, including Hillary Rodham Clinton, urged chief executives of major oil companies to help with fuel assistance programmes run by the government.

It was signed by three Bronx non-profit housing corporations and Citgo, the US-based subsidiary of the state owned company Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA)

The firm will provide heating oil at a 40% discount

Deliveries will continue until 1 April

The senators said that the only company to respond was Citgo, the US-based subsidiary of Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) and the country's fourth-largest gasoline retailer. . .

As I recall, after Chavez made the offer, first Pat Robertson suggested that the US bump Chavez off, then America took Chavez’ oil while denigrating the gesture (which no other oil company equalled) as a political move to embarrass Bush, and finally, rethuglican yahoos started a boycott of Citco service stations.

When one of my friends had a girlfriend like that, we all called her a bitch!

 

[cantdog]

Exactly.

Unfortunately, Zeb sees patriotism as blindly following whatever idiot happens to be in power at the time, no matter what he does, or how hated he makes the people of this country.

Patriotism is to a country, not to it's idiotic leadership.

On the contrary, cloudy, Zeb made a clear and cogent distinction in a very few pithy words. You can dissent from the government of the country because you seek a Kingdom of John Porter, Prophet of the Most Holy God, Smiter and Humbler of Zog. That's dissent all right, but it isn't patriotism. I think it's a useful distinction.

 

[cantdog]

Chavez aided native Americans in Maine last winter, in much the same way. In contrast, heating oil prices generally went up to levels higher than gasoline at the pump.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Something from last winter which I bet Roxanne doesn’t know, or tries hard to forget:


As I recall, after Chavez made the offer, first Pat Robertson suggested that the US bump Chavez off, then America took Chavez’ oil while denigrating the gesture (which no other oil company equalled) as a political move to embarrass Bush, and finally, rethuglican yahoos started a boycott of Citco service stations.

When one of my friends had a girlfriend like that, we all called her a bitch!

Yeah, I know all about it. It's nothing but transparent, crass, cynical political manipulation. If you think Chavez has suddenly developed a soft spot in his heart for the downtrodden underclasses of the Bronx, then you've got a soft spot in a different area of the anatomy.

So far we're having a fairly polite and civil conversation in this thread (plus some amusing devilry) - hopefully we can keep it that way. I responded in kind in this post to a bit of mild ad-hominem, but will now resume my usual congenial manner.

 

[Pure]

small question to the resident jeffersonian.

RCall it freedom. Call it liberty. Call it whatever you want, but it’s the bedrock on which this nation was founded and from which we stray at our peril. It’s what has defined us as Americans.

P: So, as a supporter of freedom and liberty, should the US government treat Mr. Musharaff of Pakistan as an ally, and give him, and esp. his armed forces, piles of money?

===
Reference on aid to Pakistan:

ARMS TRADE RESOURCE CENTER
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/wawjune2005.html

U.S. WEAPONS AT WAR 2005:
PROMOTING FREEDOM OR FUELING CONFLICT?
U.S. Military Aid and Arms Transfers Since September 11

This report estimates Pakistan has received over 800 million in aid from the US from 2002-2005. It may buy F-16s with its 'aid' funds; more recently, depleted uranium.

General Musharraf is the right man in the right place at the right time.
---Secretary of State Colin Powell[71]

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Exactly.

Unfortunately, Zeb sees patriotism as blindly following whatever idiot happens to be in power at the time, no matter what he does, or how hated he makes the people of this country.

Patriotism is to a country, not to it's idiotic leadership.

There you go again putting words in my mouth, words I never spoke. Where did I say I blindly follow anyone? Where did I say that patriotism is blindly following the president?

Again you have it all mixed up.

 

[cloudy]

There you go again putting words in my mouth, words I never spoke. Where did I say I blindly follow anyone? Where did I say that patriotism is blindly following the president?

Again you have it all mixed up.

Of course I do.

There, there. Don't get all frothy at the mouth again.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Of course I do.

There, there. Don't get all frothy at the mouth again.

Don't you worry your silly little head darlin', I'm not a bit upset, not in the least.

 

[cloudy]

Don't you worry your silly little head darlin', I'm not a bit upset, not in the least.

I'm sorry, you must have me mistaken for someone else. I don't have a "silly little head." That's what men have.

 

[wazhazhe]

I'm sorry, you must have me mistaken for someone else. I don't have a "silly little head." That's what men have.

*snicker*

 

[rgraham666]

I'm sorry, you must have me mistaken for someone else. I don't have a "silly little head." That's what men have.

I have one of those. I pay attention to it far too often.

 

[Guest]

. . .

Freedom — understanding it, living it, and teaching it to posterity. That, my fellow Americans, is what patriotism should mean to each of us.


Source - ?

Here is more of the article by Mr. Lawrence W. Reed.

Posted: Jul. 2, 2004

(This essay is adapted from an earlier version published in September 2002 on the first anniversary of the 9/11 attacks on New York and Washington)

Patriotism these days is like Christmas — lots of people caught up in a festive atmosphere replete with lights and spectacles. We hear reminders about “the true meaning” of the occasion — and we may even mutter a few guilt-ridden words to that effect ourselves — but like most people, each of us spends more time and thought in parties, gift-giving, and the other paraphernalia of a secularized holiday than we do deepening our devotion to the “true meaning.” The attention we pay the fictional Santa Claus rivals that which we pay the One whose name the holiday is meant to hallow.

So it is with patriotism. Walk down Main Street America and ask one citizen after another what it means and with few exceptions, you’ll get a passel of the most self-righteous but superficial and often dead-wrong answers. America’s Founders, the men and women who gave us reason to be patriotic in the first place, would think we’ve lost our way if they could see us now.

Especially since the attacks of 9/11, Americans are feeling “patriotic.” For most, that mere feeling suffices to make one a solid patriot. But if I’m right, it’s time for Americans to take a refresher course to appreciate what being a patriot should really mean.


Lawrence W. Reed is president of the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, a research and educational institute headquartered in Midland, Michigan.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I'm sorry, you must have me mistaken for someone else. I don't have a "silly little head." That's what men have.

HEY!

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

RCall it freedom. Call it liberty. Call it whatever you want, but it’s the bedrock on which this nation was founded and from which we stray at our peril. It’s what has defined us as Americans.

P: So, as a supporter of freedom and liberty, should the US government treat Mr. Musharaff of Pakistan as an ally, and give him, and esp. his armed forces, piles of money?

===
Reference on aid to Pakistan:

ARMS TRADE RESOURCE CENTER
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/wawjune2005.html

U.S. WEAPONS AT WAR 2005:
PROMOTING FREEDOM OR FUELING CONFLICT?
U.S. Military Aid and Arms Transfers Since September 11

This report estimates Pakistan has received over 800 million in aid from the US from 2002-2005. It may buy F-16s with its 'aid' funds; more recently, depleted uranium.

General Musharraf is the right man in the right place at the right time.
---Secretary of State Colin Powell[71]

I don't know, what do you think? Really. Are you suggesting it's a no-brainer? If you were Secretary of State what would you recommend?