Defining Love

[wicked woman]

Originally posted by Hooch
Sigh... Quite often, I lurk on this thread, and read with great interest the posts herein. I have been reluctant to post myself (other than a copy of lyrics from a Martina McBride song)... not really sure why, I think it is because either my brain or myheart hurts too much when i begin to look within myself to see what lies within me. But on this topic...

Without divulging too much of my personal situation.. I, like so many others at Lit, am married, but have had virtually zero sexual contact for many years with my spouse. There is a certain amount of physical closeness in the manner of hugs, chaste kisses, etc, but as far as "sex", "making love", "fucking" or any of the other shades of the rainbow - zero. It's complicated (isn't it always?). I have never given up on the situation - hope springs eternal - that is another topic altogether. As a way of searching for SOMETHING to reaffirm my "maleness", that I am desirable as a man, I COULD have eleceted to have a physical affair. But my personal set of morals prevented me from doing so. Those same morals allowed me to engage in flirting online and as a result of that, I have been involved for 4-1/2 years with a woman I met at Lit. We have never met. We have never touched. We have exchanged pictures of course and we talk nearly daily, but it is truly a sterile physical relationship. Our contact was at one time both via online and phone, now it it is virtually exclusively by phone. At one time, it could be as much as 2 hours a day - one glorious day we spent 9 hours "together". Lately, we are lucky if we can spend an hour per week together. And that time is usually as one drives to or from work and the other is already at work, so at best the conversation is brief and awkward or mumbled. Is this still a viable relationship? What has changed? I am not saying that physical contact is a requirement, chaste though it may be (as in my wife and I) - because there are SO many other variables and stimuli and issues in play. But to live solely on the phone, or by email, or by a few tokens in the real mail? That is sheer agony.

I'm not sure of the point I am trying to make, or if this is more of a rant/vent. Is it fair to another person, especially if they are unattached or "available" in the real/physical world that I choose to remain only an "online" person? Does a phone relationship constitute RL? If you dream of someone, engage in "what-if" scenarios in the middle of the night as you stare at the celing in the dark, if you wrangle with "should I make THE change now"... if you do these things, doesn't that constitute "Real Life"?

Jeez... I told you my head hurts when I think about this stuff too much. All this may have already been answered earlier in the thread, so I hope I am not plowing old ground. If so, just ignore me. Hell just ignore me anyway... methinks this was more of a rant than anything else anyway. I sure didn't provide any direction....

- Hooch

oh I almost missed this...away for a few days and didn't go back far enough. So glad I didn't miss it. I could say so much...but just a few points.

Is it fair to another person, especially if they are unattached or "available" in the real/physical world that I choose to remain only an "online" person?

I don't think it's a question of 'fair' or not. As long as you're honest about your situation - which I understand you were/are - the person has a choice to accept or reject that situation. The choosing is hers...the consequences also. Where it becomes difficult is if only one of you wants to change the 'rules' of the relationship...but even at that, you both understood the risk you took...whoever is saying 'no' must have their wishes respected.

Does a phone relationship constitute RL? If you dream of someone, engage in "what-if" scenarios in the middle of the night as you stare at the ceiling in the dark, if you wrangle with "should I make THE change now"... if you do these things, doesn't that constitute "Real Life"?

I was once given some good advice....that we communicate virtually does not make our feelings for each other any less real...the internet is real life...it's just another way of communicating...

Thank you for sharing Hooch. Good luck in your decision.

 

[GiveawayGirl]

Have to agree with this...more appreciated...not the actual gift that matters...well unless you get me a kitten...knowing I don't like them AND am allergic to them!...more the attention...knowing he's thinking of me.

I'd have to agree with you friend (hello ). It's less about the gift and more about feeling special, being paid the attention, and knowing that you were worth the thought and effort.

 

[GiveawayGirl]

As a regular derailer of this thread, I thought the least I could do was keep it near the top in Yank's absence.

So let's talk about trust, or lack thereof. I believe trust is an essential element to being able to sustain a loving relationship. What does one do when their trust has been broken, either by a current lover or from past experiences? What do you do when you find yourself questioning your beloved's motivations for doing or saying things? How to you stop yourself from allowing that to destroy current or any future relationships?

(Not a mwy caliber question but the best I can do )

 

[shell seeker2]

I'd have to agree with you friend (hello ). It's less about the gift and more about feeling special, being paid the attention, and knowing that you were worth the thought and effort.

I agree whole heartedly. It is all about being made to feel special, being paid attention, and knowing I'm worth it.

As far as trust, I almost lost someone because I broke their's. I lied due to fear and curiosity on my part. I was lucky that this person evidently saw enough good in me to continue speaking to me. Trust is a key element, and I am never going to break that element again. I know it was stupid, but I guess this person saw that everyone makes mistakes.
I trust many people, and when I had realized what I had done, and how it made the person feel, I felt 10 times as bad, 20 times as bad knowing that it was somewhat forgiven. I felt so low and dirty, probably more than I had ever before.

 

[GiveawayGirl]

I agree whole heartedly. It is all about being made to feel special, being paid attention, and knowing I'm worth it.

As far as trust, I almost lost someone because I broke their's. I lied due to fear and curiosity on my part. I was lucky that this person evidently saw enough good in me to continue speaking to me. Trust is a key element, and I am never going to break that element again. I know it was stupid, but I guess this person saw that everyone makes mistakes.
I trust many people, and when I had realized what I had done, and how it made the person feel, I felt 10 times as bad, 20 times as bad knowing that it was somewhat forgiven. I felt so low and dirty, probably more than I had ever before.

It's interesting to hear a perspective from the other side of the coin Shell. To be perfectly honest, I hadn't thought of how the person who has broken the trust may have felt.

I was being totally one-sided in my perspective (see, I'm no Yankee!).

btw: every time I see you post your sig line makes me smile

 

[DLL]

Originally posted by GiveawayGirl
As a regular derailer of this thread, I thought the least I could do was keep it near the top in Yank's absence.

So let's talk about trust, or lack thereof. I believe trust is an essential element to being able to sustain a loving relationship. What does one do when their trust has been broken, either by a current lover or from past experiences? What do you do when you find yourself questioning your beloved's motivations for doing or saying things? How to you stop yourself from allowing that to destroy current or any future relationships?

(Not a mwy caliber question but the best I can do )

well trust is a funny word to mention on a sex chat thread I think...i think all of us here have broken the "trust" of a loved one by just posting here.I very recently probably lost a very good friend due to lack of trust and the funny thing is we were most honest with one another. I will comment more as I have to run and cant post what I am feeling but i will...great q GG....

 

[GiveawayGirl]

well trust is a funny word to mention on a sex chat thread I think...i think all of us here have broken the "trust" of a loved one by just posting here.I very recently probably lost a very good friend due to lack of trust and the funny thing is we were most honest with one another. I will comment more as I have to run and cant post what I am feeling but i will...great q GG....

Great point DLL (did THAT sound like Yank?)

I wonder how many of us, if any, have been completely honest in our R/L about what we do here, or that we are even here.

I know I haven't necessarily shared my activities in detail with anyone in my reality.

 

[Cathleen]

Great point DLL (did THAT sound like Yank?)

I wonder how many of us, if any, have been completely honest in our R/L about what we do here, or that we are even here.

I know I haven't necessarily shared my activities in detail with anyone in my reality.

We all have a right to privacy though. I am a believer that not everything I think or do is for anyone but myself. I don't hide behind that statement either. I've shared this site with a few people and have given my stories to a brother and a few friends - which is totally freaking them out! lol But it is my decision what I share and not by way of omission.

As a regular derailer of this thread, I thought the least I could do was keep it near the top in Yank's absence. So let's talk about trust, or lack thereof. I believe trust is an essential element to being able to sustain a loving relationship. What does one do when their trust has been broken, either by a current lover or from past experiences? What do you do when you find yourself questioning your beloved's motivations for doing or saying things? How to you stop yourself from allowing that to destroy current or any future relationships?

(Not a mwy caliber question but the best I can do )

Trust is a very tricky area for me. I think I appear to trust others but when I look closely I don't trust at all. I share myself to a point, no farther. I'm quite trustworthy with your information shared with me but I don't share with you myself. That is also about other things too but trust in that I'm afraid of being rejected if the real me was known. (Something like that.)

My trust was taken at a young age by abuse and by denial of emotion. It became difficult to know what trust was because of this, not only to trust but to be trusted. I found as a young adult I was one of the "go to" people in the dorm and never betrayed anyone. I hold that as an honor that someone will share with me.

So here is the double edge sword. I feel honored to be trusted but don't give that in return. It was the same with receiving gifts for a long time - I had such difficulty accepting anything, until my Mother taught me that I had to allow others the joy of giving, that same joy I felt every time I gave to someone.

I think to trust is to be vunlerable - which to me is akin to pain. I don't like it, I avoid it at all cost. The cost is great too. A one sided relationship isn't fulfilling or rewarding for either person.

So GG - thanks a damn bunch! (jj)

 

[GiveawayGirl]

So GG - thanks a damn bunch! (jj)

Hey, blame yankee......he's the one that abandoned us for vacation! I'm a poor substitute

I can only image how your circumstances must compound the trust issue for you Cathleen. You know yourself so well considering the long road you've been down.

The trust issue for me is so much simpler. I have never been easy to trust people with the "real" me for my own reasons. When I finally worked up the courage to do so, I got burned. Now I find it very difficult not to second-guess myself, question the motives of those around me, and I struggle to let people in. Perhaps time will lessen this protective response in me, I'm not sure.

 

[Cathleen]

Hey, blame yankee......he's the one that abandoned us for vacation! I'm a poor substitute

I can only image how your circumstances must compound the trust issue for you Cathleen. You know yourself so well considering the long road you've been down.

The trust issue for me is so much simpler. I have never been easy to trust people with the "real" me for my own reasons. When I finally worked up the courage to do so, I got burned. Now I find it very difficult not to second-guess myself, question the motives of those around me, and I struggle to let people in. Perhaps time will lessen this protective response in me, I'm not sure.

The easy response to that is "ditto". I find it terribly difficult to trust - to let others in. I got burned too (over and over). I suppose it is easy to throw in the proverible towle but is seems to be an involuntary action to want to trust.

I guess I just keep learning about myself and my blocks and focus on progress. I wonder about the "ifs" quite a lot.

As to knowing myself - I wouldn't be alive if I hadn't done that work. Plus I like to learn! lol

 

[GiveawayGirl]

The easy response to that is "ditto". I find it terribly difficult to trust - to let others in. I got burned too (over and over). I suppose it is easy to throw in the proverible towle but is seems to be an involuntary action to want to trust.

I guess I just keep learning about myself and my blocks and focus on progress. I wonder about the "ifs" quite a lot.

As to knowing myself - I wouldn't be alive if I hadn't done that work. Plus I like to learn! lol

I would imagine that the manner in which you got burned makes much difference. Burned is burned no matter who the messenger, but I think the lasting impact of being burned is much more destructive when it comes from someone who you should absolutely be able to trust.

And I think that we accept the possibility of being burned in love.....it happens to everyone at least once.

As for knowing yourself....since you've done such a great job, perhaps you can figure me out next????

 

[Cathleen]

I would imagine that the manner in which you got burned makes much difference. Burned is burned no matter who the messenger, but I think the lasting impact of being burned is much more destructive when it comes from someone who you should absolutely be able to trust.

And I think that we accept the possibility of being burned in love.....it happens to everyone at least once.

As for knowing yourself....since you've done such a great job, perhaps you can figure me out next????

HA HA HA!

 

[GiveawayGirl]

HA HA HA!

I figured it couldn't hurt to ask seeing as you are so well put together

 

[Cathleen]

I figured it couldn't hurt to ask seeing as you are so well put together

HA HA HA!! I don't know where you get your news GG I'm like a jigsaw puzzle that is missing pieces!!

 

[GiveawayGirl]

HA HA HA!! I don't know where you get your news GG I'm like a jigsaw puzzle that is missing pieces!!

Seriously Cathleen, you always have something wise to say and you seem to know yourself pretty darn well. That is impressive!

 

[Cathleen]

Seriously Cathleen, you always have something wise to say and you seem to know yourself pretty darn well. That is impressive!

Thank you GG, that is nice of you to say. I have worked hard and believe it has been a worthy endeavour.

 

[GiveawayGirl]

Thank you GG, that is nice of you to say. I have worked hard and believe it has been a worthy endeavour.

I couldn't agree more

 

[MT_Pitcher]

The easy response to that is "ditto". I find it terribly difficult to trust - to let others in. I got burned too (over and over). I suppose it is easy to throw in the proverible towle but is seems to be an involuntary action to want to trust.

I guess I just keep learning about myself and my blocks and focus on progress. I wonder about the "ifs" quite a lot.

As to knowing myself - I wouldn't be alive if I hadn't done that work. Plus I like to learn! lol

I think we all have been burned, many times. It's a part of life, just not the best part. After enough times, trust is not given away again easily, it becomes something that has to be earned.
I think it's too easy in a way to hide behind your fear and use it as an excuse to build walls. It's much harder to face those fears and learn from them and grow from them.
Sometimes that face in the mirror can be our own worst enemy.
Speaking from experience on that............

 

[wicked woman]

Originally posted by GiveawayGirl
As a regular derailer of this thread, I thought the least I could do was keep it near the top in Yank's absence.

So let's talk about trust, or lack thereof. I believe trust is an essential element to being able to sustain a loving relationship. What does one do when their trust has been broken, either by a current lover or from past experiences? What do you do when you find yourself questioning your beloved's motivations for doing or saying things? How to you stop yourself from allowing that to destroy current or any future relationships?

(Not a mwy caliber question but the best I can do )

Interesting questions GG. Yes obviously trust is essential to any relationship. Reading your questions a few thoughts come to mind. First, they make me realize that if I think about the various relationships I've had, that I can't recall ever having my trust misplaced. Certainly I've had my heart broken more than enough times...but not through cheating or lying or hiding essential truths. I don't think I'm capable or qualified to answer your questions...which leads me to think I should be thankful for my blessings.

Perhaps that explains my next comments. I think even now, that I'm pretty trusting. I'm not completely naive about things but I don't really make people earn my trust...not at a fairly superficial level. I don't share my 'gut' with everyone...but that's more because at heart I'm a very private person...although the older I get, the more easily I share myself. Trust if closer to being a 'given' with me, until you prove yourself untrustworthy.

 

[GiveawayGirl]

I think we all have been burned, many times. It's a part of life, just not the best part. After enough times, trust is not given away again easily, it becomes something that has to be earned.
I think it's too easy in a way to hide behind your fear and use it as an excuse to build walls. It's much harder to face those fears and learn from them and grow from them.
Sometimes that face in the mirror can be our own worst enemy.
Speaking from experience on that............

I think you are correct in many ways MT. I also understand the need to build walls. I think some hurts are so profound that you can't help but try to protect yourself from them.

 

[GiveawayGirl]

Interesting questions GG. Yes obviously trust is essential to any relationship. Reading your questions a few thoughts come to mind. First, they make me realize that if I think about the various relationships I've had, that I can't recall ever having my trust misplaced. Certainly I've had my heart broken more than enough times...but not through cheating or lying or hiding essential truths. I don't think I'm capable or qualified to answer your questions...which leads me to think I should be thankful for my blessings.

Perhaps that explains my next comments. I think even now, that I'm pretty trusting. I'm not completely naive about things but I don't really make people earn my trust...not at a fairly superficial level. I don't share my 'gut' with everyone...but that's more because at heart I'm a very private person...although the older I get, the more easily I share myself. Trust if closer to being a 'given' with me, until you prove yourself untrustworthy.

WW, I think perhaps from the little I know you that your blessing are a direct result of being a discerning judge of character.

I, too, like to think that I am trusting of people on a superficial level. People that I encounter have to be pretty seedy before I will fail to give them the benefit of the doubt. I tend to be much less trusting with people that I care about deeply. In order to protect myself, I give away very little until I am absolutely sure. It's when I cross that line, hand over that trust, and then someone betrays my trust that I find it difficult to recover.

 

[MT_Pitcher]

I think you are correct in many ways MT. I also understand the need to build walls. I think some hurts are so profound that you can't help but try to protect yourself from them.

Temporary walls are good, they give you time to regroup. It's the permanent walls that will kill you eventually, if not physically, emotionally.
Been there, done that, came to close to death.
Not recommended as a life changing experience even if it did work for me.

 

[GiveawayGirl]

Temporary walls are good, they give you time to regroup. It's the permanent walls that will kill you eventually, if not physically, emotionally.
Been there, done that, came to close to death.
Not recommended as a life changing experience even if it did work for me.

I have to believe that if you come across the right person, the walls will come down even if it takes a little work. Until it feels like they are ready to crumble, I say "reinforce, fortify, and reinforce some more"

 

[GiveawayGirl]

I know I haven't necessarily shared my activities in detail with anyone in my reality.

I had to come back and ammend this statement. There is one person in my reality that knows why and what I am doing here.

Not a huge ratio....I know a ton of people.

 

[wicked woman]

Originally posted by GiveawayGirl
WW, I think perhaps from the little I know you that your blessing are a direct result of being a discerning judge of character.

I, too, like to think that I am trusting of people on a superficial level. People that I encounter have to be pretty seedy before I will fail to give them the benefit of the doubt. I tend to be much less trusting with people that I care about deeply. In order to protect myself, I give away very little until I am absolutely sure. It's when I cross that line, hand over that trust, and then someone betrays my trust that I find it difficult to recover.

You are kind GG...perhaps you forget that I'm divorced. hehe clearly not a 'perfect' judge of character there.

Interesting....less trusting of those you care about deeply than of others. Yes it makes sense of course...those we care about the most can also hurt us the most...just never put the two together I guess.

Yes I hear...it's that expectation gap.

btw