Defining Love

[No.1Pinklady]

Disappointments do help teach forgiveness. But those who are disappointed must be ready to learn about forgiving. Not all are, unfortunately. And this has led to numerous failures in relationships that had plenty of potential.

So can we say that the ability to forgive is a requirement to find love?

 

[midwestyankee]

So can we say that the ability to forgive is a requirement to find love?

Perhaps. In my view, the ability to forgive completely is somewhat rare, but some degree of forgiveness is an essential in a loving relationship.

 

[shyly curious]

I am thinking communication is the key. Communication with one's self.

Are expectations really messages from ourself about needs that we want filled and fulfilled? Do we create expectations because there is a void or longing that we hunger to satisfy? Does the expectation we have reveal more about who we aren't as opposed to who they are or aren't?

If I can communicate with myself, and understand myself, then I can feel secure in who I am and not place my needs and unreasonable expectations on those who share in my life.

While I do have hopes and dreams, it is inappropriate of me to create expectations that others must live up to of fulfill.

Does this trigger any thoughts in anyone else?

 

[midwestyankee]

I am thinking communication is the key. Communication with one's self.

Are expectations really messages from ourself about needs that we want filled and fulfilled? Do we create expectations because there is a void or longing that we hunger to satisfy? Does the expectation we have reveal more about who we aren't as opposed to who they are or aren't?

If I can communicate with myself, and understand myself, then I can feel secure in who I am and not place my needs and unreasonable expectations on those who share in my life.

While I do have hopes and dreams, it is inappropriate of me to create expectations that others must live up to of fulfill.

Does this trigger any thoughts in anyone else?

Yes, this is indeed provocative. I'm going to ruminate and get back to this one in the morning.

 

[Cathleen]

I got confused halfway through so I just lay back and listened. And that was good.

Was it good for you?

Pooh on you!! Not following my logic??? Gee thats one I've never heard LOL

And Yank...it was fabulous.....earth shattering!

 

[Cathleen]

I am thinking communication is the key. Communication with one's self.

Are expectations really messages from ourself about needs that we want filled and fulfilled? Do we create expectations because there is a void or longing that we hunger to satisfy? Does the expectation we have reveal more about who we aren't as opposed to who they are or aren't?

If I can communicate with myself, and understand myself, then I can feel secure in who I am and not place my needs and unreasonable expectations on those who share in my life.

While I do have hopes and dreams, it is inappropriate of me to create expectations that others must live up to of fulfill.

Does this trigger any thoughts in anyone else?

Oh yeah it triggers tons..... geesh everything does in my brain!!

Forgiveness is also a give to oneself...... it relieves us from the burden as well as the other person. Communication is key on that as well.

I agree, I can not expect others to fulfill my dreams, they can be part of it, and help me achieve, but they can not create it for me, thats my job.

Thanks Shy...

 

[No.1Pinklady]

Perhaps. In my view, the ability to forgive completely is somewhat rare, but some degree of forgiveness is an essential in a loving relationship.

I agree, but there is a difference between partial forgiveness and holding a grudge.

 

[No.1Pinklady]

I am thinking communication is the key. Communication with one's self.

Are expectations really messages from ourself about needs that we want filled and fulfilled? Do we create expectations because there is a void or longing that we hunger to satisfy? Does the expectation we have reveal more about who we aren't as opposed to who they are or aren't?

If I can communicate with myself, and understand myself, then I can feel secure in who I am and not place my needs and unreasonable expectations on those who share in my life.

While I do have hopes and dreams, it is inappropriate of me to create expectations that others must live up to of fulfill.

Does this trigger any thoughts in anyone else?

This maybe true, but why can't our expectations be combined with the hopes and dreams of others, to make both parties happy?

 

[Shoshisexy]

I am thinking communication is the key. Communication with one's self.

Are expectations really messages from ourself about needs that we want filled and fulfilled? Do we create expectations because there is a void or longing that we hunger to satisfy? Does the expectation we have reveal more about who we aren't as opposed to who they are or aren't?

If I can communicate with myself, and understand myself, then I can feel secure in who I am and not place my needs and unreasonable expectations on those who share in my life.

While I do have hopes and dreams, it is inappropriate of me to create expectations that others must live up to of fulfill.

Does this trigger any thoughts in anyone else?

Hits home for me in a HUGE way! I am definitely going to give this one a lot of thought. Thank you soooo much, shy! It really gives me a place to focus on my relationships with others and myself.

 

[midwestyankee]

I am thinking communication is the key. Communication with one's self.

Are expectations really messages from ourself about needs that we want filled and fulfilled? Do we create expectations because there is a void or longing that we hunger to satisfy? Does the expectation we have reveal more about who we aren't as opposed to who they are or aren't?

If I can communicate with myself, and understand myself, then I can feel secure in who I am and not place my needs and unreasonable expectations on those who share in my life.

While I do have hopes and dreams, it is inappropriate of me to create expectations that others must live up to of fulfill.

Does this trigger any thoughts in anyone else?

Are expectations all about needs that we want filled and fulfilled? Maybe. Or they may be about fantasies that we have chosen to live by.

Do we create expectations to fill a void? Sometimes. Other times I think our expectations are more about false maps of reality that we drew once upon a time and have not had the courage or insight to correct.

Do our expectations reveal more about who we are and less about what someone else is not? Absolutely.

Having said all this, let me toss another little morsel into the salad. Let's say you meet someone who simply mesmerizes you with how closely she matches your sense of the ideal woman (or man, if you wish) and she says the same is true of you. I wonder how often we unconsciously raise our expectations when we meet someone like this. Could it be that when we meet someone who seems to be so close to "perfect" we fall into the trap of holding this person to our highest expectations in all ways? Even when reason tells us we should accept this new beloved for who she is?

Has anyone else walked out the gates of Eden with this sin on his back?

 

[DLL]

Originally posted by midwestyankee
Are expectations all about needs that we want filled and fulfilled? Maybe. Or they may be about fantasies that we have chosen to live by.

Do we create expectations to fill a void? Sometimes. Other times I think our expectations are more about false maps of reality that we drew once upon a time and have not had the courage or insight to correct.

Do our expectations reveal more about who we are and less about what someone else is not? Absolutely.

Having said all this, let me toss another little morsel into the salad. Let's say you meet someone who simply mesmerizes you with how closely she matches your sense of the ideal woman (or man, if you wish) and she says the same is true of you. I wonder how often we unconsciously raise our expectations when we meet someone like this. Could it be that when we meet someone who seems to be so close to "perfect" we fall into the trap of holding this person to our highest expectations in all ways? Even when reason tells us we should accept this new beloved for who she is?

Has anyone else walked out the gates of Eden with this sin on his back?

 

[midwestyankee]

walks in the thread munching an apple......Yank want a bite????

Sheesh...there's always a snake in the grass.

 

[Cathleen]

Are expectations all about needs that we want filled and fulfilled? Maybe. Or they may be about fantasies that we have chosen to live by.

Do we create expectations to fill a void? Sometimes. Other times I think our expectations are more about false maps of reality that we drew once upon a time and have not had the courage or insight to correct.

Do our expectations reveal more about who we are and less about what someone else is not? Absolutely.

Having said all this, let me toss another little morsel into the salad. Let's say you meet someone who simply mesmerizes you with how closely she matches your sense of the ideal woman (or man, if you wish) and she says the same is true of you. I wonder how often we unconsciously raise our expectations when we meet someone like this. Could it be that when we meet someone who seems to be so close to "perfect" we fall into the trap of holding this person to our highest expectations in all ways? Even when reason tells us we should accept this new beloved for who she is?

Has anyone else walked out the gates of Eden with this sin on his back?

I think I am bowing out of this discussion. My thoughts are so totally opposite here. That "ideal" person you mention.....they became "ideal" prior to any expectations...... what the heck am I missing here.

Why would I think that person would be any more or less, if I had become enamoured of them as they are now? People will so rarely live up to our expectations if we think of people as "ideal". It isn't real. Compatibilty yes, but no one person is ideal for another....there will always be needs one has that the other can not fill. We need many people in our lives to fill all our needs (if in fact that can be accomplished, but I'm not going there now!). Kind of like having a "movie friend" and "coffee and chat" friend etc. I absolutely hate to say this and I won't use her name, but it does take a village to complete our lives.

I have expectations of myself, what matters is that I meet mine to the best of my ability. Ex. I expect to be treated with respect by those with whom I come into contact with each day. If someone disrepects me, I let them know. If that does not "cure" it, my action is to remove myself, thereby meeting my expectations.

Now I'm done....no more on expectations for me...... LOL

Yank, you didn't EXPECT me to be quiet did you!!! LMAO

 

[shyly curious]

I think I am bowing out of this discussion. My thoughts are so totally opposite here. That "ideal" person you mention.....they became "ideal" prior to any expectations...... what the heck am I missing here.

Why would I think that person would be any more or less, if I had become enamoured of them as they are now? People will so rarely live up to our expectations if we think of people as "ideal". It isn't real. Compatibilty yes, but no one person is ideal for another....there will always be needs one has that the other can not fill. We need many people in our lives to fill all our needs (if in fact that can be accomplished, but I'm not going there now!). Kind of like having a "movie friend" and "coffee and chat" friend etc. I absolutely hate to say this and I won't use her name, but it does take a village to complete our lives.

I have expectations of myself, what matters is that I meet mine to the best of my ability. Ex. I expect to be treated with respect by those with whom I come into contact with each day. If someone disrepects me, I let them know. If that does not "cure" it, my action is to remove myself, thereby meeting my expectations.

Now I'm done....no more on expectations for me...... LOL

Yank, you didn't EXPECT me to be quiet did you!!! LMAO

Oh Cathleen, ... Don't bow out, that would leave MWY stuck talking about this with me, ...

sheesh, how cruel for him ...

what i got from this is that maybe when we meet someone who seems so close to an "ideal" that we had previously imagined and held dear, that we project onto them things we do not yet know about them. Things that our "ideal" would have, hence we may expect the new person to have these traits too as the new person has other traits we can identify as being the same as our "ideal".

maybe some traits are common to the "ideal" and the new person, but to expect them both to have all the same traits would be wrong. yet maybe in the thrill of discovery we do not wait to learn the whole person, instead glossing over the unknown with our projected image from the "ideal"

for me, if i have no expectations, i have nothing to lose and can relax and be myself and allow the other to be themself.


i have gotten to the point where the weather does not mean much to me, i work outside, year round, i have gotten to the point where i no longer worry or even care much if it is raining, snowing, sleeting, windy, cold, or even sunny. when i go to work i will have to accept and deal with whatever the weather is as i have no control over it or my job tasks.

if only i was as good at this with people as i am with weather ...

 

[midwestyankee]

I think I am bowing out of this discussion. My thoughts are so totally opposite here. That "ideal" person you mention.....they became "ideal" prior to any expectations...... what the heck am I missing here.

<snip>

Yank, you didn't EXPECT me to be quiet did you!!! LMAO

No, I hardly expected you to be quiet, Cate. But that's because I hope that everyone who likes to visit here will speak up when they see something they want to discuss.

But, as Shy said, don't bow out just because you disagree. After all, if we all agreed there wouldn't be much cause for discussion.

 

[Cathleen]

Oh Cathleen, ... Don't bow out, that would leave MWY stuck talking about this with me, ...

sheesh, how cruel for him ...

what i got from this is that maybe when we meet someone who seems so close to an "ideal" that we had previously imagined and held dear, that we project onto them things we do not yet know about them. Things that our "ideal" would have, hence we may expect the new person to have these traits too as the new person has other traits we can identify as being the same as our "ideal".

maybe some traits are common to the "ideal" and the new person, but to expect them both to have all the same traits would be wrong. yet maybe in the thrill of discovery we do not wait to learn the whole person, instead glossing over the unknown with our projected image from the "ideal"

for me, if i have no expectations, i have nothing to lose and can relax and be myself and allow the other to be themself.


i have gotten to the point where the weather does not mean much to me, i work outside, year round, i have gotten to the point where i no longer worry or even care much if it is raining, snowing, sleeting, windy, cold, or even sunny. when i go to work i will have to accept and deal with whatever the weather is as i have no control over it or my job tasks.

if only i was as good at this with people as i am with weather ...

Oh Shy....I have already been cruel to Yank......making him shake his head with my every post.....thinking...what is she smoking? LOL

I can only add this...... live and let live. Take each person as they are, enjoy the best, accept who they are..... leave alone what doesn't fit or try to work with it as best you can. I just don't see this as difficult. I want to be accepted as I am, so I have to offer that in return.

Okay, Yank.....let it rip....LOL

done now AGAIN! LOL you know I'll never be done with my "pondering" so don't EXPECT it!! LOL

a to make it all gone down easier.....

 

[Cathleen]

No, I hardly expected you to be quiet, Cate. But that's because I hope that everyone who likes to visit here will speak up when they see something they want to discuss.

But, as Shy said, don't bow out just because you disagree. After all, if we all agreed there wouldn't be much cause for discussion.

Yank I am a firm believer in the premise "If everyone thinks alike, then no one is thinking". Disagreements are terrfic I very much enjoy the discussions, and have "reuminated" often with your topics.

You can't get rid of me that easily..... I just have so much to say....LOL

(I never meant leaving the thread...just that I can't offer more to this topic.....thats all)

 

[midwestyankee]

Oh Cathleen, ... Don't bow out, that would leave MWY stuck talking about this with me, ...

sheesh, how cruel for him ...

what i got from this is that maybe when we meet someone who seems so close to an "ideal" that we had previously imagined and held dear, that we project onto them things we do not yet know about them. Things that our "ideal" would have, hence we may expect the new person to have these traits too as the new person has other traits we can identify as being the same as our "ideal".

maybe some traits are common to the "ideal" and the new person, but to expect them both to have all the same traits would be wrong. yet maybe in the thrill of discovery we do not wait to learn the whole person, instead glossing over the unknown with our projected image from the "ideal"

<snip>

if only i was as good at this with people as i am with weather ...

This really was quite close to what I was thinking.

It's a terrible trap, this tendency to idealize someone whom you see as so very close to your ideal. I think we become so enamored of thinking well of these new beloveds that we build them up in our minds - put them on a pedestal in a way. We create an internal image of someone who does not exist and then fall in love with that image we have created for ourselves. Then, when the real person behaves as real people do, we become sorely disappointed.

They can't possibly be as patient or as thoughtful or as forgiving as we imagined. Shy, you said earlier that communication is essential in controlling this problem with expectations. If I could raise a toast to you right now for that insight, I'd do it gladly.

 

[Cathleen]

This really was quite close to what I was thinking.

It's a terrible trap, this tendency to idealize someone whom you see as so very close to your ideal. I think we become so enamored of thinking well of these new beloveds that we build them up in our minds - put them on a pedestal in a way. We create an internal image of someone who does not exist and then fall in love with that image we have created for ourselves. Then, when the real person behaves as real people do, we become sorely disappointed.

They can't possibly be as patient or as thoughtful or as forgiving as we imagined. Shy, you said earlier that communication is essential in controlling this problem with expectations. If I could raise a toast to you right now for that insight, I'd do it gladly.

Why be disappointed..... this is where I am not following.... of course the beginnings of a love relationship are full of endorphins and heady thoughts that all is right with the world. Maybe my practical side still weighs in during that time, I am not as patient, as thoughtful, as as as...... I am me, thoughtful, patient, kind etc. but each quality has degrees each moment..... sometimes I am too patient or too giving etc. So if I accept that within myself, I must accept that of the other person as well.

Retracting my previous statement; obviously I am not done! Jeesh....would I make up my mind or what!

 

[tn_greeneyez]

I wrote an essay once comparing love to a roller coaster. That's what it is to me..........highest highs, lowest lows, smooth and easy, twisting and turning, can see where you've been......but not always where you are heading.

 

[shyly curious]

This really was quite close to what I was thinking.

It's a terrible trap, this tendency to idealize someone whom you see as so very close to your ideal. I think we become so enamored of thinking well of these new beloveds that we build them up in our minds - put them on a pedestal in a way. We create an internal image of someone who does not exist and then fall in love with that image we have created for ourselves. Then, when the real person behaves as real people do, we become sorely disappointed.

They can't possibly be as patient or as thoughtful or as forgiving as we imagined. Shy, you said earlier that communication is essential in controlling this problem with expectations. If I could raise a toast to you right now for that insight, I'd do it gladly.

i think it goes to even simple things, such as what they might like to read, what they might like to do for fun, what they might like to see at a museum, how late they like to stay up, what their favorite "love movie" would be, and the big one, ... do they like to talk and discuss and expecting them to want to discuss the same things as me.

communication has to be fruitful and encouraged by both ... and both need to learn the communication language of the other and embrace it. it is no good when one person speaks in one language and the other person speaks in a different language, the two people have to work together to build a common language to communicate with ...

 

[midwestyankee]

I wrote an essay once comparing love to a roller coaster. That's what it is to me..........highest highs, lowest lows, smooth and easy, twisting and turning, can see where you've been......but not always where you are heading.

Some people love roller coasters (I'm one for certain) and others absolutely hate them. I wonder if there is a correlation between the levels of excitement and pleasure we enjoy in one part of our lives and the degree of excitement and pleasure we like in our love life.

Just wondering. Maybe I'm a roller coaster kind of guy in a world of miniature golf players.

BTW, welcome to the thread tn_greeneyez. Glad to have you here.

 

[shyly curious]

Why be disappointed..... this is where I am not following.... of course the beginnings of a love relationship are full of endorphins and heady thoughts that all is right with the world. Maybe my practical side still weighs in during that time, I am not as patient, as thoughtful, as as as...... I am me, thoughtful, patient, kind etc. but each quality has degrees each moment..... sometimes I am too patient or too giving etc. So if I accept that within myself, I must accept that of the other person as well.

Retracting my previous statement; obviously I am not done! Jeesh....would I make up my mind or what!

i avoid the disappointment if i do not project my "ideal" vision on others, regardless of the type of interpersonal relationship i have with them.

yes Cathleen, degrees of qualities, degrees of traits are subject to change without notice. changed by internal or external forces and experiences.

glad you have more to offer and are willing to share as your thoughts evolve ...

 

[midwestyankee]

<snip>

communication has to be fruitful and encouraged by both ... and both need to learn the communication language of the other and embrace it. it is no good when one person speaks in one language and the other person speaks in a different language, the two people have to work together to build a common language to communicate with ...

I wonder if this is one of the secrets of great loves: that the two become fully conversant in a common language that only they speak. And they revel in being the only ones who can speak that language. It's unique unto them and they nourish themselves in its use.

I need to stop philosophizing before someone smacks me.

You're right, Shy. It's absolutely crucial to be able to understand the subtleties that lie beneath the surface of what your beloved says to you.

 

[Cathleen]

I enjoy minitature golf....but I play the real one!

and you can take all the roller coaster rides you want.....no way for me....my life has been more exciting than any roller coaster I can imagin!!

Ok..folks, I'm leaving the office now.... see you all later perhaps...have a nie afternoon....evening...morning...day...you know what I mean....

Shy...I never stop.... no need to concern yourself there..... I know many who wish I would....but that is their expectation and I can no meet it !!! LOL Ok...that was my last expectation dig!