Define what a 'real writer' is to you.

[xssve]

Agreed. I feel very much the same way.



And now for the loaded questions: What about folks who self-publish? Or, folks whose only form of publication is an e-venue?

Writing. One is a writer if one wrties, whether anybody reads it or not. I do think publishing has something to do with it, but I think you're still a writer if you write a book that sits in a shoe box in your closet - that was the case with A Conspiricy of Dunces, the guy was a writer, and a good one - it's just that nobody knew about until his mom found it after his death and had it published.

Otherwise, it's a lot like the difference between art and artifact, or fine art and illustration - one is considered a unique and singular product of the creative imagination, the other is a job that involves producing artlike artifacts requireing and utilizing artistic skill and talent, but still, just a job, and the result, a product.

 

[Liar]

And now for the loaded questions: What about folks who self-publish? Or, folks whose only form of publication is an e-venue?

Do they do it with success? If they sell their self-published books and make a living off it, well more power to them.

I mean, there are many recording artists these days, both bigger and smaller ones, that instead of signing with big labels, start their own. Record, print, market and distribute. And do it well enough to afford to do it full time.

Or if I write a kickass blog that everybody in the world wants to read, and I can pay my bills with a handful of ads on the pages, then I'm not only a writer, and a successful one at that. I'm also a good enough publisher (because I knew how to make money off a good product) and a decent entrepreneur (since I run a business and balance the accounts).

 

[shereads]

Art and commerce are uncomfortable partners. It's impossible to have this discussion and not ask whether commercial success and artistic success are even related.

Does Michael Jackson's top-selling album make him the greatest musical talent of all time? That's easy; of course it doesn't. But does it make him the most successful? Does it make him more of a 'real' musician than if the album had been poorly marketed and had bombed? Does it make him more credible in any meaningful way than a classical pianist with a tiny fraction of his sales?

 

[McKenna]

I have a great friend who is a helluva artist. He makes a living doing what he loves, and to me, that's success. He would probably be the first to admit he is no Da Vinci, no Monet, no Van Gogh --but does that make him any less successful at his craft?

I admit to a certain bias against self-publishing, probably because I recognize (and secretly loathe) the desire in myself to go that route rather than a more traditional route (for my fiction, that is.) It seems a cop-out. It seems the most self-aggrandizing thing a person could do. "Here, read this. No one else has said it's any good, but I declare it to be good, therefore I had it published."

I don't necessarily like that about myself, but there you have it.

Liar brought up an interesting point about musicians who "self-publish." One of my favorite artists got her start independently, and that's one of the things I liked about her: She didn't have to do it any other way but her way, and in the doing, proved to the music industry it could be done without the likes of Simon. ( )

I am a coward. I admit that freely. I am a coward because I have yet to pursue publishing (as in paperback, on the bookshelf, in homes world-wide). I have written three stories here at Lit. All three have won awards. I haven't submitted anything since, and do you know why? Because I am a coward. I'm afraid I won't do as well. Afraid I will disappoint. Writing ficition has become more about pleasing someone else than me, and I don't necessarily like that. I say this, and yet some elitist part of me still snubs self-published authors? WTF?! It doesn't make sense, not even to me, but that's where I'm at.

This thread has been great in that it has made me rethink my position on a few things. Kudos to those who've brought some gems to the table to ponder: Stella, Liar, Charley, Shereads ... among others. Thank you.

 

[Liar]

Art and commerce are uncomfortable partners. It's impossible to have this discussion and not ask whether commercial success and artistic success are even related.

Related? Definitely. But not super-glued to each other. It's more like a very flexible rubber band.

 

[shereads]

Related? Definitely. But not super-glued to each other. It's more like a very flexible rubber band.

Amateur pervert!

 

[shereads]

I have a great friend who is a helluva artist. He makes a living doing what he loves, and to me, that's success. He would probably be the first to admit he is no Da Vinci, no Monet, no Van Gogh --but does that make him any less successful at his craft?

I admit to a certain bias against self-publishing, probably because I recognize (and secretly loathe) the desire in myself to go that route rather than a more traditional route (for my fiction, that is.) It seems a cop-out. It seems the most self-aggrandizing thing a person could do. "Here, read this. No one else has said it's any good, but I declare it to be good, therefore I had it published."

I don't necessarily like that about myself, but there you have it.

Liar brought up an interesting point about musicians who "self-publish." One of my favorite artists got her start independently, and that's one of the things I liked about her: She didn't have to do it any other way but her way, and in the doing, proved to the music industry it could be done without the likes of Simon. ( )

I am a coward. I admit that freely. I am a coward because I have yet to pursue publishing (as in paperback, on the bookshelf, in homes world-wide). I have written three stories here at Lit. All three have won awards. I haven't submitted anything since, and do you know why? Because I am a coward. I'm afraid I won't do as well. Afraid I will disappoint. Writing ficition has become more about pleasing someone else than me, and I don't necessarily like that. I say this, and yet some elitist part of me still snubs self-published authors? WTF?! It doesn't make sense, not even to me, but that's where I'm at.

This thread has been great in that it has made me rethink my position on a few things. Kudos to those who've brought some gems to the table to ponder: Stella, Liar, Charley, Shereads ... among others. Thank you.

What you said about being a coward struck a nerve. The fear of rejection or criticism has a terrible power, and in some of us it can be crippling. As a copywriter, I learned to deal with it by distancing myself from the work - to such an extent that when I'd meet people in a social setting, and they'd ask me what I did for a living, my mood would plummet. Even more painful than 'What do you do" was the usual follow-up question, "Have you written anything I might have seen?" "God, I hope not," I'd blurt out.

Every copywriter gets into the business expecting to write SuperBowl commercials and win the One Show. Most of us wind up writing what most clients are willing to pay for: mediocrity. Most clients are no different than most readers of popular fiction or most buyers of sofa-sized art.

Producing mediocre work that pays the bills, but tortures the self-esteem, can do funny things to a writer. Part of you longs to write something that's entirely your own. Another part fears that in doing so, you might make a crushing discovery: the mediocrity wasn't the clients' fault after all.

Aren't we brave, you and I, admitting our cowardice? Kudos to us both.

 

[Liar]

Amateur pervert!

And guess what an amateur pervert can do with a flexible rubber band.

No, guess. I'm not gonna tell you. It's a trade secret, and you don't know the handshake.

 

[shereads]

And guess what an amateur pervert can do with a flexible rubber band.

No, guess. I'm not gonna tell you. It's a trade secret, and you don't know the handshake.

You sound like a professional pervert. You've been practicing, haven't you!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

If you do something often enough you can become comfortable with the activity...like testifying in court. Once you get past the fear you realize most lawyers are dum fucks who leave themselves wide open for a sucker punch. Then you learn how to throw a punch.

 

[starrkers]

Finally read this thread (or most of it at least).

"A writer writes" came up in some form or another several times. I say bullshit! There are many millions of trees worth of printed word that disprove this statement.

We've all seen it - someone who cannot see that no matter what they do they will never be proficient enough to make a writer's arsehole, let alone a writer. Yet, no matter how many times they are told, or who tells them, they refuse to believe that their writing is anything less than brilliant. The reason they aren't wining prizes and rolling in royalties is the unappreciative audience that just doesn't understand their greatness.

A writer is someone who writes well enough to be read, has enough humility to recognise they aren't perfect, is willing to take advice when needed, and won't use the "you just don't get it" line when told something doesn't work.

Oh, and me? I'm a writer's arsehole. And I've been getting paid for the bilge I produce for more than 20 years.

 

[Stella_Omega]

A writer is someone who writes well enough to be read, has enough humility to recognise they aren't perfect, is willing to take advice when needed, and won't use the "you just don't get it" line when told something doesn't work.

Those are all modifiers to the term, though... Good ones, for sure!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

STARRKERS

I'll never get how John Updike sells a book. There are plenty more just like him. Left to me, all of them would be unpublished; but that's how the world is...a lid for every pot.

 

[CharleyH]

The DANUBE?
I can't believe you did that!

Do you realise that I'll have to sail right across the Atlantic, up the Mediterranean, through the straits of Dardanelle and Istanbul just to reach the mouth of the river? And then all the way up to Budapest -- just to jump in and soak myself for your amusement... My crew will never stand for it. I'm looking at mutiny...

Fuck it, I'll fly instead.

LOL, well I knew you wouldn't simply tell me to fuck off! lol

 

[CharleyH]

Does Michael Jackson's top-selling album make him the greatest musical talent of all time? That's easy; of course it doesn't. But does it make him the most successful? Does it make him more of a 'real' musician than if the album had been poorly marketed and had bombed? Does it make him more credible in any meaningful way than a classical pianist with a tiny fraction of his sales?

Despite the artifice of MJ ... I think that a musician who gets gigs, is creating and selling, is a musician. A person posting their suck-ass attempts on YouTube isn't much of a musician in my eyes. If MJ stops making music and opts for marketing his old songs rather than creating new ones, then he ceases to be a musician and becomes a marketer.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Despite the artifice of MJ ... I think that a musician who gets gigs, is creating and selling, is a musician. A person posting their suck-ass attempts on YouTube isn't much of a musician in my eyes. If MJ stops making music and opts for marketing his old songs rather than creating new ones, then he ceases to be a musician and becomes a marketer.

Yeah, whatever else you can say about that poor bastard, he IS a musician.

LOL, well I knew you wouldn't simply tell me to fuck off! lol

never! well, hardly ever...

 

[CharleyH]

Yeah, whatever else you can say about that poor bastard, he IS a musician.
never! well, hardly ever...

Still curious about what people have to say about other professions. I admire, write out my own theories and dabble in quantum physics. OH MY GOD! I'm a physicist!

 

[Stella_Omega]

I just realised we are playing that favorite Human game of trying to establish absolute definitions. This practice became extra popular at the dawn of the Age Of Reason, and reached its pinnacle in the late 1800's, and the habit hasn't died out yet.
When the gentleman amateurs of the Royal Society began their forays into the natural world, it seemed as if every variation of anything, animal, vegetable or mineral (Which game has its roots in that same society) could be catalogued and classified.

Of course the reality is a little different; the natural world exists in a more fluid state than that, and there are no solid lines between categories. Many animal species can interbreed, given the wide range of genetic diversity, and contribute a further diversity. Our human race does not allow solid lines between Mongolian, Caucasian, Negroid "races" these are all an amorphous variant of overall characteristics.

To demand a definition of any activity, "writer" Physicist" "Shoe Salesman" is like demanding to be pointed to a single Tree that defines all trees.

 

[CharleyH]

I just realised we are playing that favorite Human game of trying to establish absolute definitions. This practice became extra popular at the dawn of the Age Of Reason, and reached its pinnacle in the late 1800's, and the habit hasn't died out yet.
When the gentleman amateurs of the Royal Society began their forays into the natural world, it seemed as if every variation of anything, animal, vegetable or mineral (Which game has its roots in that same society) could be catalogued and classified.

Of course the reality is a little different; the natural world exists in a more fluid state than that, and there are no solid lines between categories. Many animal species can interbreed, given the wide range of genetic diversity, and contribute a further diversity. Our human race does not allow solid lines between Mongolian, Caucasian, Negroid "races" these are all an amorphous variant of overall characteristics.

To demand a definition of any activity, "writer" Physicist" "Shoe Salesman" is like demanding to be pointed to a single Tree that defines all trees.

True.

(I had also hoped that throwing your hat in the Danube might make a think about who might find it, and what they would do with it if they did? )

 

[Stella_Omega]

True.

(I had also hoped that throwing your hat in the Danube might make a think about who might find it, and what they would do with it if they did? )

They'd better get it back to me, that's all! How c'n I captain the ship wivout me hat?

(But, yes, one could write a lovely series of hat adventures, through ten countries and, huh?
And wikipedia says that nine more countries get its tributaries!(research day for me today, can you tell?)

We recently watched "Everything is Illuminated" and I cried a lot. My daughter has the book, and she says it's even better, and I'm waiting for her to finish reading it.

 

[CharleyH]

They'd better get it back to me, that's all! How c'n I captain the ship wivout me hat?

(But, yes, one could write a lovely series of hat adventures, through ten countries and, huh?
And wikipedia says that nine more countries get its tributaries!(research day for me today, can you tell?)

We recently watched "Everything is Illuminated" and I cried a lot. My daughter has the book, and she says it's even better, and I'm waiting for her to finish reading it.

We are off to see "There will be Blood" tomorrow. I am certain I will cry all over the place.