Debunking 6 common Isreali Myths

[p_p_man]

Re: p_p_man

Do you truly believe in what you're saying, or, are you saying it just for an argument sake?

I'm saying it because terrorism is the only weapon the Palestinians have against the invading Israeli forces. How else would you want them to try and regain their homeland?

Talking to Sharon?

ppman

 

[miles]

Ish, baby

Hey you pitiful butcherer of histroy.

What I had to say in no way contradicted your pitiful little response and I provided far greater detail.

Regardless, my statment still stands. Palestine, at no time, has existed as an autonomous political entity.

The Turks, the Egyptians, the Italians, the French, the British, can claim longer ownership and administrative province over the area.

So, how can something be returned that never existed?

Ishmael

Because in pp's world, 1 + 1 = 3. The jews tried to make everyone think 1 + 1 = 2.

 

[Ishmael]

Re: Ish, baby

Because in pp's world, 1 + 1 = 3. The jews tried to make everyone think 1 + 1 = 2.

Ahhhhhhhh, I forgot. It was when the Rabbi's expurgagated the 'truth' from the Torah that all this started.

Ishmael

 

[lostinn]

Delete

 

[p_p_man]

The west took one region, divided it into arbitrary countries and left one little area for a non-arab, non-muslim people who had a three thousand plus year history or being a nation.

And precisely where was this "nation" whilst the Palestinians were busy living a life as land cultivators.

Not to put too heavier an emphasise on it here's the second time I've quoted this. I'd be grateful if it was read this time:

"How long has Palestine been a specifically Arab country?

"Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics - including its name in Arabic, Filastin - became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."

ppman

 

[Ishmael]

And precisely where was this "nation" whilst the Palestinians were busy living a life as land cultivators.

Not to put too heavier an emphasise on it here's the second time I've quoted this. I'd be grateful if it was read this time:

"How long has Palestine been a specifically Arab country?

"Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics - including its name in Arabic, Filastin - became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."

ppman

That's bullshit and you know it. Arabic, yes, a country, never.

You can't hang your response and argument on that little piece of fluff.

Ishmael

 

[p_p_man]

That's bullshit and you know it. Arabic, yes, a country, never.

You can't hang your response and argument on that little piece of fluff.

Ishmael

Well that little answer speaks volumes about you.

At least you've cleared one thing up. You're basically arguing from a foundation of sand.

ppman

 

[juicygirl]

Lostinn, on your logic the Israelis really have no claim to the region either. Sure they have big guns, but their own modern history begins relatively recently. What I really want to do is recreate the Hittite state because they were really big. Poor little Hittites.

If there is a moral point to any of this it does not revolve around who was there first or who had a state first. Oh and Jigs, suicide bombing may be the thing that gets the war criminal Sharon to the negotiating table. There will eventually be enough pressure from Israel itself to get him to stop this stupid and dangerous invasion.

Why is it terrorism when the Palestinians assasinate someone and okay when the Israeli's do the same?

Just curious.

 

[crystalhunting]

Lostinn, on your logic the Israelis really have no claim to the region either. Sure they have big guns, but their own modern history begins relatively recently. What I really want to do is recreate the Hittite state because they were really big. Poor little Hittites.

If there is a moral point to any of this it does not revolve around who was there first or who had a state first. Oh and Jigs, suicide bombing may be the thing that gets the war criminal Sharon to the negotiating table. There will eventually be enough pressure from Israel itself to get him to stop this stupid and dangerous invasion.

Why is it terrorism when the Palestinians assasinate someone and okay when the Israeli's do the same?

Just curious.

It's just another version of Denial...double standards Juicygirl.




CH

 

[lostinn]

Delete

 

[lostinn]

Delete

 

[p_p_man]

Ishmael uses profanity and that makes his argument meaningless? That's some sterling logic.

God <----- (profanity) you're really clutching at straws now if you believe that...

ppman

 

[p_p_man]

My point is that there really is no such thing as a Palestinian and that there definitely is no historic (modern or otherwise)Palestinian nation to restore.

Other more prominent people have said much the same, or similar, things before you.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist." -- Golda Meir Statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969."

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." -- Golda Meir (quoted in Chapter 13 of The Zionist Connection II: What Price Peace by Alfred Lilienthal )"

The more I read quotes like that the more I see a little man with a Charlie Chaplin moustache and a funny salute...

ppman

 

[juicygirl]

lostinn my point is that the Israelis don't really either. They have fought and killed for that land sure, but does that mean they have a right to it. You really have to say no. Surely one can still give the Palestinians a homeland without making it depend on some prior history. Or, the Palestinians can try to take it like the Israelis did. I don't think you really want to say that black South Africans in the apartheid days had no right to self-determination because they had previously created a Western Style state. That's a silly or scary argument.


I say we stop paying off the Israeli's and everyone else in the region and just let everyone kill each other. Wouldn't that be a lovely sight? Of course we could just work on peace.

 

[crystalhunting]

I bet you'll think I am just posting "propaganda" but why don't you have a look at the website I am working from?

This man has been on Television and Radio shows,and he quotes articles from

New York times
Harpers magazine
Chicago Reader

and others...all VERY legitimate American news..

Take your blinders off just for a moment...and look for yourself.

http://www.abunimah.org/


ali abunimah's bitter pill uncovering media myths about the middle east

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3/28/02 Listen Online: Ali Abunimah and Patrick Clawson discuss Palestine conflict on WBEZ
3/26/02 Advisory: TIPH reports "no information on the shooting" of two of its personnel--The Electronic Intifada
3/25/02 Listen Online: Interview on FAIR's Counterspin about coverage of Palestine conflict
3/17/02 Published Letter: Palestinian refugee rights--The New York
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3/12/02 Images of an Execution--The Electronic Intifada
3/11/02 URGENT ACTION ALERT: Call Powell to stop Israel's massacres
3/7/02 COMMENTARY: Israel's Choice
3/4/02 Listen Online: Interview about situation in Palestine on "Voices That Listen"
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2/24/02 USA Today publishes call for ethnic cleansing of Palestinians--The Electronic Intifada
2/23/02 Listen Online: Interview on Flashpoints about Israeli attacks, NPR bias
2/21/02 NPR acknowledges, corrects egregious claim that deadly Israeli attack left "no casualties."
2/20/02 Special Report: NPR Responds to Concerns about Cash Payments to Linda Gradstein--The Electronic Intifada
2/19/02 Special Report: NPR's Linda Gradstein takes cash payments from pro-Israel groups--The Electronic Intifada
2/18/02 COMMENTARY: Israel and the Arab States
2/7/02 Al-Jazeera in English? CNN in Arabic?--The Daily Star (Beirut)
2/4/02 Published Letter: Palestinians have never been offered "half" of anything--Haaretz
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1/18/02 Does NPR Ombudsman Jeffrey Dvorkin give worthless assurances?
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1/4/02 Bernard Lewis and the true price of a cup of coffee
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1/2/02 Letter to Colin Powell: Arrest and beating of Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi
12/27/01 Seeking an Arab view of news--The Baltimore Sun
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12/2/01 Commentary: Bombs and Wreaths
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11/28/01 Review of The New Intifada in The Daily Star
11/21/01Listen Online: Interview on WBEZ radio about Powell Speech
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11/19/01 Letter to Colin Powell: On your speech at Louisville
11/11/01 Review of The New Intifada in The Scotsman on Sunday
11/14/01 NPR host Neal Conan answers criticism of segment on Al-Jazeera
11/9/01 Published Article: You cannot be serious, Mr. Peres--The Jordan Times
11/2/01 Afghan War's Innocent Victims See An Indifferent West--The Hartford Courant
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10/31/01 Published Letter Internet Rumors about Al-Jazeera--The Chicago Tribune
10/29/01 Read the Village Voice review of The New Intifada
10/23/01 Letter to Colin Powell: One Hundred Percent Effort Needed
10/22/01 Published Article: The CNN of the Arab World should be respected--The Los Angeles Times
10/20/01 Letter to Colin Powell: Time to Take a Stand
10/18/01 War is not the way to fight terror--Article by Hasan Abu-Nimah
10/15/01 Published Article: For the Palestinians, the crisis has two faces--The Los Angeles Times
10/10/01 Listen Online:How do Palestinians see the world? Interview on "This American Life"
10/9/01 "Suspicious Minds" -- Salon.com
10/8/01 Listen Online: Interview about Palestinian crackdown in Gaza -- on WBEZ Radio
10/8/01 Listen Online: Interview about role of Al-Jazira in Afghanistan crisis -- on Pacifica's Flashpoints
10/5/01 Published Article "Terrorist by Association" -- Interview with Mike Miner in The Chicago Reader
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9/13/01 Coverage Trend: Palestinian people, as a whole, portrayed as supportive of the attacks on the World Trade Center
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8/17/01 Published Letter:Israel must live in the Twenty First Century--The Jerusalem Post
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8/17/01 NPR's extreme distortions and falsehoods about Jerusalem
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8/15/01 Listen Online: Ali Abunimah and Hussein Ibish debate Israeli views on WBEZ
8/9/01 Incitement by National Public Radio's Linda Gradstein
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8/6/01 REPORT: "Dovish" Knesset speaker says Palestinians "unhuman"
8/3/01 Published Letter: Occupation is not "self-defense"--The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
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7/10/01 Letter to Colin Powell: Israeli (and U.S.) war crimes
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5/23/01 Published Article New ADC Issue Paper by Ibish and Abunimah on Right of Return
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5/10/01 Text of remarks delivered at JUNITY conference
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5/6/01 REPORT: Spat upon, threatened, we stood for Palestine
4/28/01 Published Letter: Name-calling--The Chicago Tribune
4/20/01 Nigel Parry uncovers more serious concerns about Israel Shamir from Parry's The Israel Shamir Case Index
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4/16/01 Serious Concerns about Israel Shamir--A statement from Ali Abunimah and Hussein Ibish
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4/15/01 Outrageous: NPR reports on one lightly injured Israel and ignores nearly one hundred injured Palestinians
4/11/01 Quoted in Cairo Times on ADL's report on 'Egyptian anti-semitism'
4/10/01 Published Article Article on Palestinian Right of Return by Ibish and Abunimah
4/8/01 REPORT: The New York rally for the Palestinian right of return
4/3/01 Letter to Colin Powell: Eight houses demolished today
3/31/01 A New York Times Editorial (slightly modified)
4/2/01 Published Article Consequences--The Jordan Times
3/29/01 Published Article Israelis and the Right of Return--Haaretz
3/27/01 (Open) Letter to The Washington Post: With just a little change...
3/26/01 COMMENTARY: Waiting for Mitchell
3/21/01 Published Letter:'Human shields' a calumny--The Montreal Gazette
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3/12/01 Published Article Israel's South African Dilemma--The Jordan Times
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3/6/01 Published Article Israel Blind to its own Legacy--The Philadelphia Inquirer
3/5/01 COMMENTARY: Another Bloodstained Dawn
2/26/01 Letter to Colin Powell: A step in the right direction
2/20/01 Letter to Colin Powell: Israeli house demolitions
2/18/01 Published Letter: Courageous editorial--The Chicago Tribune
1/28/01 Published Letter: Excellent article on refugees--The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
2/17/01 REPORT: United States and Britain isolated after attack on Iraq
2/13/01 Published Letter: UK helping Israeli aggression?--The Jordan Times
2/10/01 Published Letter: "Occupying Force"--The Chicago Tribune
2/9/01 REPORT: Major U.S. Jewish organizations welcome Sharon victory
2/8/01 REPORT: Dennis Ross confronted about pro-Israel ties
2/7/01 COMMENTARY: Sharon Wins. Where does the compass point today?
2/1/01 Chicago Tribune report on Teach-In with Ali Abunimah and David Roet, Deputy Consul-General of Israel
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1/19/01 Published Letter:The Jerusalem Post's prints op-ed responding to my article
1/13/01 COMMENTARY: Arafat's Executions
1/10/01 Published Article Israel should welcome the refugees--The Financial Times
1/4/01 Listen Online: Ali Abunimah and pro-Israeli David Schenker on WBEZ radio
1/3/01 ACTION ALERT: Right of Return under new threat from "Clinton Plan"
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middle east-related sites
palestine/israel

Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, Gaza Strip
al-awda.org
The Palestinian Return Centre--includes Dr. Salman Abu-Sitta's important research on the feasibility of return to Palestine
Council for Palestinian Restitution and Reparation--please sign their online petition
Center for Policy Analysis on Palestine--useful policy briefs about all aspects of the conflict
The Center for Economic and Social Rights--important new research about the deteriorating situation in the occupied territories
www.golan-syria.org--New Syrian site about occupied Golan Heights
Birzeit's complete guide to Palestine on the web
LAW-a Palestinian human rights group (information on house demolitions, land confiscation, human rights)
BADIL Resource Center on Palestinian residency and refugee rights
B'Tselem-an Israeli human rights group
Palestine Information Center (alquds.org)
Foundation for Middle East Peace-information and maps of Israeli settlements in occupied territory
Gush Shalom--Israeli grassroots peace movement
Bat Shalom--Israeli feminists for peace and social justice working with Palestinian women
Deir Yassin Remembered
Dheisheh Refugee Camp, Palestine--Visiting this site is a must. Refugees speak about themselves, their history and their future.
A Personal Diary of the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict (Nigel Parry)
MIFTAH--The Palestinian Intiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and Democracy
Permanent Observer Mission of Palestine to the United Nations--has comprehensive archive of UN resolutions and documents relating to Palestine
Hanthala--a site on international law and human rights in Palestine
The Canadian-Palestinian Educational Exchange
An American Family tells of its trip to Palestine--good reading resource list and links
www.jerusalemites.org--A site by Jerusalemites, all about the city's history, culture and politics
UNISPAL--The United Nations Information System on the Question of Palestine
PLO Negotiations Affairs Department
Orthodox Jews opposed to Zionism
Not In My Name
iraq


Education for Peace in Iraq Center (EPIC)--see this site for important Iraq-related action alerts
Voices in the Wilderness--a campaign to end economic sanctions against the people of Iraq
Iraq Action Coalition
Sanctioning Peace: a carefully selected index of internet resources on Iraq
general middle east


AMEU--Americans for Middle East Understanding (publishers of The Link)
MERIP--Middle East Research and Information Project (publishers of Middle East Report)
arab american

Cafe Arabica--"The Arab American Online Community Center"
Leb.net--links to Arab and Arab American organizations
The Arab American Action Network
The American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC)--The largest grassroots organization representing Arab Americans
arab-american.com
ArabAmerican.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CH

 

[juicygirl]

You tell the dunderheads CH!!!

 

[Ishmael]

Well that little answer speaks volumes about you.

At least you've cleared one thing up. You're basically arguing from a foundation of sand.

ppman

Come on, cough up one authoritive source. Be sure to quote your sources, or post the link.

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

lostinn my point is that the Israelis don't really either. They have fought and killed for that land sure, but does that mean they have a right to it. You really have to say no. Surely one can still give the Palestinians a homeland without making it depend on some prior history. Or, the Palestinians can try to take it like the Israelis did. I don't think you really want to say that black South Africans in the apartheid days had no right to self-determination because they had previously created a Western Style state. That's a silly or scary argument.


I say we stop paying off the Israeli's and everyone else in the region and just let everyone kill each other. Wouldn't that be a lovely sight? Of course we could just work on peace.

OK JG, another little history lesson.

In 1948, the UN was charged with the disposition of what was then known as the British Middle East Protectorate. That area known as Palesitne and what includes Isreal.

The decision was made to split the area into two bodies. Creating a homeland for the Jews (Isreal) and a homeland for the Arabs (Palestine).

At the urging of their Arab neighbors (Syria, Egypt, and etc.) the indigenous peoples were told to leave and join with their neighbors in 'sweeping' the Jews from the area.

Within days of the creation of the state of Isreal, the Arabs attacked. The goal was (and still is) to have the whole pie rather than share it. The Arabs lost.

The majority of Palestinian refugees are refugees of their own choosing. They gambled on having the having everything and lost.

Can a person that runs away from their own property in order to organinze and deprive another of theirs rightfully be called a refugee? For the most part their claim to refugee status is bunk. A recent perversion of the truth to marshall world opinion sympathetic to their cause.

And what is their cause? Well as much of a twit as YoYoTwat is, at least he isn't disengenious on this point. The erradication of Israel.

So, I posit my question one more time. Is it intellectually justifiable to support a group that calls for the complete erradication of another?

This call for the erradication of the Jews from the middle east is not some nebulous rambling on my part, but stated explicitly in the Palestinian Charter, which is available on-line.

ppman and others have refered to these genocidal paragraphs in the charter as nothing more than 'bargianing chips' for the Palestinians.

I submit that using the threat of visiting death upon another party to achieve one's own goals has another name. It's called extortion.

As for CH's sources. Repeatedly saying the same thing over and over does not make the statements correct in anyway. Adolf Hitler was the modern architect of "The Big Lie". In the end, Arafat will probably occupy a similar position in history.

ppman's biggest beef is Sharon. And it may suprise him to find out that in some respects I'm sympathetic to his views of the man. But Sharon is a legally elected official that probably would have never attained the position that he occupies if it were not for the actions of Arafat and his surrogates. When a nation, or more properly the citizens of that nation, believe themselves to be under seige or attack, the natural tendency is to select a leader that will eliminate the enemy. Israel should not be expected to conduct it self in a manner counter to it's continued existance.

Ishmael

 

[YogiBare]

Oh and Jigs, suicide bombing may be the thing that gets the war criminal Sharon to the negotiating table. There will eventually be enough pressure from Israel itself to get him to stop this stupid and dangerous invasion.

Juicygirl, to believe that would be a fatal miscalculation on the part of the terrorists. The Israeli response to these attacks has been, and will continue to be, to do whatever is necessary to defend themselves. They now see the barbaric behavior of Arafat and his crew for what it is - an attempt to totally destroy them. They will never allow it, never capitulate to this behavior. Continuation of the homocide bombings will bring upon the Palestinians the annhialation that they wish to inflict upon the Israelis. Some people never learn.

 

[Jigs]

p_p_man

Another one of those "I'm the only one who's seen action" posters. Once again Jigs you destroy the validity of an entire post by making idiotic statements like that...

Pray tell us then, what qualifies you an expert on how wars are fought by men whose lives are on line? Just what validity is your pontification on who is justified in the way he fights, and who is not?

Before I go any further, let me make it plain that I am not in favor of killing civilians for the sake of killing civilians. Aside from morality, I am opposed because wars aren't won by killing civilians. On the other hand, civilians don't have any immunity when I must go after an armed and dangerous enemy, and that is particularly true when that enemy is hiding in the midst of a civilian population.

I would not trash the village the way Lt. Cally did in Vietnam. That was stupid and unnecessary. (Unlike your Palistinian pals, I wouldn't plant a bomb is a civilian resturant either by the way).

On the other hand if I'm a company commander on the outskirts of what I have every reason to believe is a village saturated with enemy soldiers, just what would you have me do? Am I to send my men in there and expose them to death and injury in a man to man fight, hut to hut? If I did so, I would be a stupid as Lt. Cally and quite as deserving of court martial as he was.

My big advantage over my enemy is the firepower at my disposal. Depending upon the situation I might first probe at the village with a small patrol, or I might not. That would be a judgment call dependant on the all the circumstances of the moment, and how much danger I think I can smell in the air. If I did probe, and a single sniper shot was fired at my patrol, my decision would be the same either way. I would pull back and call for artillery, and/or the fighter-bombers with cluster bombs and napalm. In the end whatever enemy was in the village would be dead, no doubt along with a good many civilians, but I would be alive and all my men would be alive. Whether you like and not, that's THE measure of success in war.

You can call that measure terrorism if you want. I call it a soldier doing his job, but then you how could you possibly know the difference from the safety of your London flat? Everything to you is a theory, based upon whenever criteria of morality you have decided upon from reading some book. Out on the edge of that village in the dark with danger all around, things are not like that at all.

Your failure to understand that Sir is what destroys the validity of this post

 

[juicygirl]

Ishmael,

No reason to be condescending because I disagree with. As to CH's sources, you really havn't shown why you think they're wrong except that they disagree with you. The New York Times is not notorious for its pro-Arafat stance you know. The big lie is told on both sides here. And you are willing to throw your support to a man who is an acknowledged war criminal because he got elected. So did that paper hanger from Austria. Though in all fairness that was before he was a war criminal. Fortunately Sharon has yet to use Menachem Begin's language of a final solution to the Palestinian problem.

Also both you, Jigs, and Yogi Bare seem to basically be claiming that might makes right in each of these issues, and you seem to insist that perforce anyone who calls himself a Palestinian is a liar or simply disingenuous. This is an incredibly imperialist and odd position to hold. You appear (and again I may have you wrong) to have simply eradicated the Palesitinians with a few verbal moves, assimilated people who claim a distinct culture into Arabs in general (Again one would have to say that this cannot really be done and be fair to Iranians, Afghanis, and so on), and provided no justification for current Israeli moves.

I'm not justifying terrorism. I am not going to justify a war on an entire populace either.

As to the military experts. Seems to me that the IRA kicked the brits out of Ireland with terror. Britain, if you'll recall, was certainly unafraid to machine gun entire populations at that time.

Also the Sandinistas were able to take over Nicaragua again by terrorist means. We could also discuss the Afghani fighters resistance to the Soviets. We might even consider the cubans under Castro. Now I agree with you that suicide bombing is not the way to go. However, doesn't that tell you how deep the desparation of these guys must be? I assume you don't think all arabs are a bunch of fucking (insert racial epithet).

If the Palestinians start overtaking the Israelis in the life v. death category don't you think that someone might be willing to negotiate -- or are the Israelis and Palestinians so irrational that they would rather kill themselves to do. That would be great because as far as I can tell, in the rush to take sides on the issue, an eye for an eye has rendered the whole world blind.

Oh and the Israeli constitution specifically grants the Israeli's the right to torture. Oh, and I don't know if this is in the constitution, the Israeli military routinely assasinates its enemies. One more thing a Jew, I think he was American so I won't specify Israeli, killed Ytzak Rabin (I hope I got the spelling of his name correct), who sued for peace and was surely no dove. So lets not pretend that Arafat was the only foul dealer in the peace process.

Oh and since the Israeli position has been over the last year or so that Arafat is irrelevant, dutifully parroted by the current U.S. administration, how could he possibly have stopped terrorist attacks. Lets not forget that he has been held hostage by the Israelis too. Enough of this no one seems willing to do much besides repeat themselves on this post. Farewell my friends may we all get a few dark-eyed virgins sometime in our life or a really good bagel. (Okay that was really terrible of me to say but Peace! anyway. REally I'll remove it if anyone was offended).

one last thing, if you are just talking military strategy then you're are not talking any sort of justification for either side. The Palestinians have no reason not to target civilians. Good luck with the slaugher of innocents boys, you really seem to want to drown in their blood!!!

 

[kamuikamui]

Go juicygirl Go!

 

[juicygirl]

Kisses Kamuikamui

 

[kamuikamui]

Re:JG

Kisses Kamuikamui

What happened???!!!
Oh, I fainted

 

[juicygirl]

lol