Dealing with PYL/pyl mistakes

[BlueBanshee]

Here's the situation:

My PYL and I are married to other people who consent to our relationship. We were involved before we started fully exploring the BDSM nature of things between us.

One of the agreed limits for the whole thing, is that I not get pregnant by my PYL. This is the one thing my spouse asks for. I agreed and my PYL agreed to the limit.

My PYL took me deeper than he had before, ie: more pain than previously. Restrained my hands, spanking, whipping, etc. Then, during the course of the scene removed the condom and asked me if I wanted unprotected penetration.

I was pretty deep into subspace. Sometimes verbal communication is difficult for me there because I'm floating. I had to come back in order to deal with, what I felt was an ethical push. Not the easiest thing to do.

I felt very torn. One the one hand, I had agreed to this limit with my spouse and I would not break that agreement. On the other hand, I love my PYL, I have always wanted children, etc. So I felt the tug of not just wanting to please my PYL and give him what he wanted, but to also give in to something that a part of me wanted as well.

I was also angry. I had to come back in the middle to basically 'be the heavy'. So, it was like the farthest subspace trip I'd had yet had to be terminated so I could be responsible, when I felt like I should have been free of making those kinds of judgement calls.

And yet I found myself unable or unwilling to code. I didn't want to say No and yet I sure as hell didn't want to say Yes. I was, basically, screwed either way (Ha!). In the end I cried and that ended the situation. I'm not really much of a crier, but it was highly frustrating and rending all around. Later we talked it over, discussed it, and generally worked things out between us though there still seems to be some lingering guilt and etc.

So, in thinking it over (it's been several weeks now) I find myself with a lot of questions for all you more experienced PYL/pyl's.

I wonder if the balance of who was in charge was broken for that moment? Is it a good idea to ask your pyl to make a choice like that in a scene? Doesn't it risk the straining or loss of the PYL's control? Especially when it's outside of what's been negotiated? I mean really, that was the one thing completely off limits.

I should note that this is the first time I've explored my pyl'ness. In all previous relationships, I've been the dominant partner. I guess I worry some that my being submissive is..fragile and very balanced and if I am put in the role of making the decisions, it will encourage me to take charge instead of the opposite.

Do other submissives ever feel this way? Is it just because I'm more of a switch? If I end up taking control, can I still give it back later? Or will the balance always be disrupted? Will that D part of me be waiting and lurking and now..ready to rise up to protect that other part of me, or will I be able to relax fully again?

Should I have been able to get back from subspace to deal with the situation? Or does this mean.. I wasn't so far as I felt I was? I guess I worry now that..It somehow means I'm not able to be as submissive as I had hoped because I was able to come back to deal with something like that. I don't know..I feel confused on this point. Would a 'good' submissive taken care of the situation..or would a good submissive have just given what was wanted regardless of pre-negotiated limits..or would a good submissive have coded?

Should I have been able/willing to code?

Also, how do other PYL/pyls come back from this kind of thing? Do you take a break? Do you dial things back in intensity for awhile? Do you get right back in there again immediately?

I felt like, it was a mistake. We talked it out. It's not likely to happen again so we should get right back to things. Live and learn, yadda yadda.

Is this incredibly naive of me? To still trust him and believe that we can find that happy PYL/pyl place together? I really believe he was sorry. It also seems to me that as far as I get pushed, it pushes him as well to deliver those kinds of things to me. Or am I wrong on that?

Thoughts?

 

[catalina_francisco]

I will try and answer some of this, though opinions and views will vary and what others think really are of no significance other than providing a variety of options....your relationship is between you and your PYL, so others really are not able to tell you what is correct for you. My thinking is you have a complicated situation to begin with so there are going to be times when things are not going to be easy and you are going to have to consider your actions in terms of how they affect 3rd and 4th parties, and then some.

Limits are set, and if it were a hard limit it was probably not the most appropriate time to bring up a discussion of whether to push it...and perhaps it arose out of hidden desires of one or both of you, perhaps a fantasy. Given what you say about wanting children, feeling the pull to agree, I think it is something you need to discuss with both your partner and PYL and find out what really lays beneath the surface for all involved. Limits can be set, but for many there comes a time when those limits can be tested and at times pushed...it seems tis one, though you both agreed to it, was at the request of others and not necessarily something which either you or your PYL personally felt strongly enough to not have it raise it's head again. Back to limits and pushing them though, to be asked if you want to push through a previous limit is not putting you in control as much as seeking consent which is what happens when limits are discussed anytime between a PYL and pyl.

The subspace thing I cannot comment on because I don't go there. Part of what he doesn't like about subspace is that it is about fulfilling the submissive, not the Dominant, and it does become a situation like you hinted at where the submissive floats off somewhere and the Dominant is left alone and a tool to provide them with their pleasure....not the other way around whereas the submissive is serving the needs of the Dominant. Basically you all need to look at what you really want, whether there is a longterm commitment to any outcomes, how that will affect everyone involved (including in this case any children), and communicate not just between both of you but also your partners. Good luck.

Catalina

 

[Tollo]

First time poster

Hello everyone. Before I address the issues you have raised BB, let me take a moment to introduce myself.

For the last couple of weeks I have been reading through numerous threads here. I have been impressed by the sensitivity, openness, and wisdom so many of you bring to these discussions. I hope to be able to contribute something valuable to this community, but as someone new to this forum, and with admittedly limited experience in D/s relationships, for a time at least, I will probably be doing a lot more reading than posting.

Now, on to your question(s). I agree with Catalina. This arrangement is particularly complicated. Because it involves no less than four individuals, each with their own concerns, desires, strengths/weaknesses, etc., the chances of problems occurring are greatly enhanced. Thus open communication and respect must be practiced diligently by each member, and even then I would say be prepared for a bumpy ride. You say that you have discussed this with your PYL, good. What about with your husband and the fourth? Are they aware of what happened? If not, why not, and if so, what were their reactions?

Focusing more on the particular dynamics between you and your PYL, you certainly have my sympathies. I can well understand how uncomfortable and frustrating this must have been for you. For myself, as a PYL, I would view what had happened as a serious failure in my leadership. To me what happened was, at best, a major loss of self control, and at worst an indication that your PYL has a fundamental lack of respect for the other three members of this relationship, but for you most of all. Pregnancy is a serious outcome. To me it is an issue that is right up there with safety. To lose sight of this, in the "heat of the moment", indicates to me that your PYL needs to do a lot more than just apologize. He needs to work on his self-discipline. Perhaps he should come here to find advise from the more experienced on how to master his own desires.

For you, I believe that the central issue is whether or not you still feel the level of trust necessary to "get right back in there again immediately." You say that you feel ready to get "right back to things." If so, then go for it. From the tone of your post, and the types of questions that you are asking, I suspect that you are not sure. So my advice is to either take a break, or at least "dial things back" for a bit.

I know that I love to push the limits of my pyl, A., but I also know that this is something that can only happen as she learns to trust me and to respect my judgments. That is an ongoing process, and it is primarily the Dom's responsibility to guide the relationship accordingly. This is very hard to do at times, and certainly I have made mistakes. I guess that is why I have become so appreciative of what this forum has to offer, as I seek always to learn and grow.

Best wishes, Tollo.

 

[Netzach]

This is not going to be constructive and I have only one thing to say.

This guy is a fucking dick.

If I'm playing with someone married to someone I either respect the parameters set up by the spouse, or I tell the couple, sorry, I cannot respect those parameters.

 

[SweetDommes]

I would have to agree with Netzach here - The fact that he agreed to it, knowing the reasons why, and he had the condom on and then removed it ... that's just not right. It is totally inexcusable and he needs to be dropped for it.

Now, because he did it and it evoked such a response in you ... yeah, you DEFINITELY need to talk to hubby about it. Tell him what your PYL did, and make sure he knows that you stopped the scene at that point, but that it raised some emotions/needs in you.

 

[BlueBanshee]

Thanks for your responses.

Yes, it's a very complex situation with the D/s and then the spouses. It is not what my first choice of how I'd like to be in a D/s relationship, but it's the reality of what I have. Sometimes life is not as tidy as one would like.

I should note that my description was just a thin slice of the whole situation. I didn't want to detail every single psychological or physical thing that went on in the situation, I thought it was just enough to explain the scenario so I could ask my questions without rambling on without end. So in defense of my PYL, it was a mistake born of a lot of things combined. He's not a bad guy, he just made a bad mistake. I'm also not blame free, takes two to tango!

He has some things to work on. But what I'm responsible for is..Me. And so, I want to see if there's something in here that I should be working on.

Tollo - I don't know about his wife. I talked to my husband about it and he feels like his trust in me was verified. He knows me and my PYL very well. He says he supports what I decide.

I feel mostly ready, except that I find that I'm questioning myself a lot and my ability to be a good sub. That's what I'd like to delve into here. My ability to be a good sub.

Is is possible that I just have some qualities, traits..that might make it very unlikely that I'll be a good sub? I should probably note I'm a terrible perfectionist, so this kind of self questioning is usual for me.

I'm bothered that I didn't code. I'm also bothered that the exchange made me more aggressive and controlling which turned up the next time we played. However, after that we talked, and things have been better since then (though we haven't gone deep yet either), ie: my aggression and so forth dialed back some. I very much feel like I submit because I actively choose to submit. It's very obvious when I'm not choosing to submit. For example, when I am not submitting I will laugh when I'm being whipped, in the fashion of...is *that* all you've got? I'm much stronger than *that*. Everything feels different when it's like that.

It's kind of like there's this part of me that says...well.. If YOU can't take care of the situation right..then I will.

I'm very prideful. I've always struggled with that. I'm worried that it was pride that kept me from coding.

 

[SweetDommes]

I can't advise you on that aspect of things ... but to ignore a hard limit like that - no matter what level of subspace/whatever you are at ... that is inexcusable. Without knowing the other things going on, I stand by my advice - your PYL should be dropped as such (and yes, I know exactly how difficult it is to find someone compatable, so I do know what doing that will mean). I don't think that my advice would change much even if I knew all the details. Something like that makes me question your PYL's integrity as a person, and as a Dominant.

*edited to add*

And actually, this is beyond ignoring a hard limit. He had the condom on and removed it - that goes into the realms of deliberately trying to drive a wedge between you and your husband. This isn't even a "whoops, I forgot to bring condoms *wink wink*" moment - this is "I know your limits, and I've been following them but now I don't want to so I'm going to try and put you in a bad position with your husband."

 

[esclave_PP]

I think what Netzach and Sweet Dommes have mentioned are both very valid. Even if it was 'heat of the moment' he crossed the line. I know you're new to the whole Dom/sub thing, and one thing I'd worry about is trust. Granted you've only given us a little sliver, but from what you mentioned, it would make me question and be very uncomfy.

I am in a similar situation, married, open relationship with husband and Master. Master would never cross the line or disrespect my husband's wishes no matter how much he wanted to do something. His word is his honor. It is that trust, that foundation that allows us to have the type of relationship we do.

Most of the things I was going to mention were done so by others already. I hope that you can find your pylness and enjoy things, however, do keep an eye peeled for other abhorent behaviors.

 

[redelicious]

[snip]

I feel mostly ready, except that I find that I'm questioning myself a lot and my ability to be a good sub. That's what I'd like to delve into here. My ability to be a good sub.

Is is possible that I just have some qualities, traits..that might make it very unlikely that I'll be a good sub? I should probably note I'm a terrible perfectionist, so this kind of self questioning is usual for me.

I'm bothered that I didn't code. I'm also bothered that the exchange made me more aggressive and controlling which turned up the next time we played. However, after that we talked, and things have been better since then (though we haven't gone deep yet either), ie: my aggression and so forth dialed back some. I very much feel like I submit because I actively choose to submit. It's very obvious when I'm not choosing to submit. For example, when I am not submitting I will laugh when I'm being whipped, in the fashion of...is *that* all you've got? I'm much stronger than *that*. Everything feels different when it's like that.

It's kind of like there's this part of me that says...well.. If YOU can't take care of the situation right..then I will.

I'm very prideful. I've always struggled with that. I'm worried that it was pride that kept me from coding.

First of all, his error in judgement put you in a terrible situation. You reacted to it. Maybe it wasn't the way you would have liked to react to it but that doesn't make you any less submissive. You should have never been put in that situation in the first place. I think it's only natural that you (if I read you correctly) had a harder time submitting to him the next time you played. Afterall, he seriously betrayed your trust in him.

I realize that I can't know all the details, however I agree with those who say to drop him. I think it was pretty dirty and weak for him to attempt to manipulate you knowing the state you were in. What if you had gotten pregnant, but decided down the line to end the relationship? You would forever be tied to the guy.

Now I'll shut my big mouth and go back to lurking.

 

[laughingbadger]

I know I would have been furious. I know that I would also dump that chump! Sure, we would discuss whys and wherefores, but we would always come back to the pre-set limits.

 

[Private_Label]

I'm not very experienced in the BDSM sense, but I am a human... my gut reaction says that for anyone to ask you to change your limits in the middle of a very emotional moment for you is not respecting you, your spouse, his spouse, or the rules he agreed to follow.

Even if you wanted to get pregnant... this was a stated deal breaker to your husband. Your husband may forgive you (and ultimately his trust in you survived this time) but what if you get pregnant and he decides to NOT forgive you. He will have plenty of amunition for infidelity when the genetic test on the child comes back and he's not the father. (I won't even go into the possibility of ending up raising a child by yourself).

If you do want to get pregnant, this sounds like something you should discuss with your husband in a calm manner.

I would have to wonder at a PYL who would willingly ask me to change my hard limit when I was under the influence of something that might take away my ability to make a rational informed decision. If he had discussed this with you before the scene and you agreed to consider it, but in the heat of passion to spring it on you was a very bad thing given the rest of the situation (i.e. not your spouse with a hard limit set by the spouse).

As others have said, it sounds a lot like you PYL is forcing you to choose between your husband and you PYL. Maybe he isn't consciously aware that he is doing it, but his actions certain are. In effect you PYL's actions are saying "I can get her to take my word over her husband's word." To me this is not dominance over YOU, but your PYL seeking dominance over your HUSBAND.

Given that your husband is allowing you to be with a PYL as you want... Is it really worth the risk of losing your husband for a moment of gratification?

OK that came out a lot more tactless than I intended... but it does look like your PYL is pushing you to decide which one you want more... The man you married or the man you call master. Your PYL may not even be aware he is doing that.

As others have said ... I don't think this PYL has your best interests at heart. Next time he may not even bother to ask your permission. And that is an even scarier place than where you are now.

 

[incubus'_sub]

It's strange how we all read things differently. I don't see the situation as having anything much to do with BDSM at all. I see all the references to PYL & pyl as a bit of a smokescreen.

I could say BAD DOM too and yes he did make a mistake, but being a sub does not mean giving up your own responsibilities. Your husband has asked for one thing only in allowing you to fulfil your sub side with another man. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? Go on the pill, get an IUD, take care of it yourself.

My guess is that the underlying motive here is a reason to leave your husband & have your PYL to yourself. Maybe that was your PYL's plan as well. Try not to get pregnant, it would be dreadful to bring a child into this mess.

 

[Private_Label]

My guess is that the underlying motive here is a reason to leave your husband & have your PYL to yourself. Maybe that was your PYL's plan as well. ...

True the unconscious motive could be hers as well.

 

[BlueBanshee]

Umm..there's a lot of over reading into things and putting words into my mouth. Also, a lot of speculation about the spouses/relationships. Hee.

I will say that..there is a difference between being a broken person who needs to be dumped and being someone who just made a mistake. I have had an interesting, maybe sometimes hard life, and I've experienced the difference between broken people who can't have adult relationships and good people having hard times..and I've lived through it.

For example of speculation, I never said there was no other birth control in play. Didn't seem relative to me to what I wanted to find out, ie: what mistakes I might have made as a sub and how I could possibly perform better.

It's BDSM related because I'm asking questions about being a sub. One of which I'm going to ask again because I'm interested.

Is it overly difficult to be a sub if you tend towards prideful?

 

[incubus'_sub]

No, you didn't say that there were no other birth control methods in place, but your alleged question was clearly to do with risking pregnancy from your PYL against your husband's wishes. If you choose to risk disease by not using a condom, that's up to you and again is not strictly BDSM related, it's just a regular sex thing. Presumably your husband knows that you will probably take risks with his health & will protect himself if he chooses. Whatever, at least no poor child will have to suffer you.

 

[BlueBanshee]

Wow. Well, thanks to those with helpful suggestions/thoughts instead of the bitter anger.

 

[Leolover711]

I will try and answer some of this, though opinions and views will vary and what others think really are of no significance other than providing a variety of options....your relationship is between you and your PYL, so others really are not able to tell you what is correct for you. My thinking is ......

Basically you all need to look at what you really want, whether there is a longterm commitment to any outcomes, how that will affect everyone involved (including in this case any children), and communicate not just between both of you but also your partners. Good luck.

Catalina

Excellent advice Catalina

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

It's strange how we all read things differently. I don't see the situation as having anything much to do with BDSM at all. I see all the references to PYL & pyl as a bit of a smokescreen.

I could say BAD DOM too and yes he did make a mistake, but being a sub does not mean giving up your own responsibilities. Your husband has asked for one thing only in allowing you to fulfil your sub side with another man. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? Go on the pill, get an IUD, take care of it yourself.

My guess is that the underlying motive here is a reason to leave your husband & have your PYL to yourself. Maybe that was your PYL's plan as well. Try not to get pregnant, it would be dreadful to bring a child into this mess.

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who read it that way. I utterly hate that PYL bullshit--I find it that it takes the "people involved" right out of a post. You both have issues. Deal with them.

Oh, and to answer your question?

It depends on what you mean by "overly prideful". If you are self involved, egocentric, and think your shit don't stink, well, then yeah, submission is going to be a hard row to hoe. If you take pride in your appearance, your home, in your how you live your life...not so much.

That work for you?

~Anelize

 

[Tollo]

Hi BB, I will offer my views on how being prideful might affect your submission.

In one of your posts you mention that you sometimes have an attitude toward your PYL, something to the effect of "is that all you can do ?". This happens, you say, when you are consciously choosing not to submit. Why are you assuming a submissive role, but not submitting? Also you mention being bothered by the fact that you have not "coded" when you should have.

If I have understood you, these are ways in which you see yourself as being overly prideful. But to me, what this indicates, is that for you a D/s relationship can sometimes be like a contest of wills. Some Doms might be attracted to the challenge of overcoming your willfulness, others might simply want nothing to do with a partner whose submission is not automatic and upfront. I will not attempt to argue that there is a universally right or a wrong way for a submissive to be. It really just comes down to what works for you and your PYL.

My advice to you is to not get hung up on whether you are cut out to be a submissive. You may or may not be, but the only way you will know is through experience and reflection. It may well be that your "pridefulness" is too much for your current PYL to handle. As you discover what you need to be able to submit, and what you want to get out of submitting, discuss these things with your PYL. If he is the one for you, he will be able to "take the situation in hand", or perhaps it will become clear to both of you that there is a fundamental incompatibility that makes the relationship not worth continuing.

Tollo

 

[esclave_PP]

Hi BB, I will offer my views on how being prideful might affect your submission.

In one of your posts you mention that you sometimes have an attitude toward your PYL, something to the effect of "is that all you can do ?". This happens, you say, when you are consciously choosing not to submit. Why are you assuming a submissive role, but not submitting? Also you mention being bothered by the fact that you have not "coded" when you should have.

If I have understood you, these are ways in which you see yourself as being overly prideful. But to me, what this indicates, is that for you a D/s relationship can sometimes be like a contest of wills. Some Doms might be attracted to the challenge of overcoming your willfulness, others might simply want nothing to do with a partner whose submission is not automatic and upfront. I will not attempt to argue that there is a universally right or a wrong way for a submissive to be. It really just comes down to what works for you and your PYL.

My advice to you is to not get hung up on whether you are cut out to be a submissive. You may or may not be, but the only way you will know is through experience and reflection. It may well be that your "pridefulness" is too much for your current PYL to handle. As you discover what you need to be able to submit, and what you want to get out of submitting, discuss these things with your PYL. If he is the one for you, he will be able to "take the situation in hand", or perhaps it will become clear to both of you that there is a fundamental incompatibility that makes the relationship not worth continuing.

Tollo

That is great advice Tollo -- thank you for saying it so clearly.

 

[BarrysSlut]

What is a PYL? (Sorry for butting in.)

 

[esclave_PP]

What is a PYL? (Sorry for butting in.)

PYL (pick your label)

 

[SweetDommes]

PYL (pick your label)

Just a point - capitalized, PYL = some version of dominant/top, uncapped, pyl = some version of submissive/slave/bottom

 

[esclave_PP]

Just a point - capitalized, PYL = some version of dominant/top, uncapped, pyl = some version of submissive/slave/bottom

Thank you for the correction

Just as easy to say D and s too.

 

[CottonO]

This is not going to be constructive and I have only one thing to say.

This guy is a fucking dick.

If I'm playing with someone married to someone I either respect the parameters set up by the spouse, or I tell the couple, sorry, I cannot respect those parameters.

--A little blunt, Netzach, but you are pretty much right. Actually, this whole thread has been quite thoughtful. From what I have read, I think if I had a concern I might also bring it here to these good folks. I have been in other fora where I could not say that.

CottonO