D/s checklist?

[ImaMember]

I am sure that most of us have seen a D/s activity checklist (the one that lists a bunch of activities and then asks the sub to rate it). I recently did a search to find one online and just about every site I was coming across stated they had to take it down because someone claimed to be the copyright owner of the list.
After doing some research (and consulting with an online attorney; I am going to consult a real-life attorney this week), this person has no copyright filed with the government (therefore cannot sue anyone), and that this list is most likely unclaimable by anyone because it is a simple list--recipies are a good example of lists that cannot be copyrighted.
Also, at this persons website, it seems she is very distraught that people keep on using it despite her claims on it: probably because these people know that she has no legal claim.
I wanted to know if anyone has dealt with this person or has seen the same messages on websites that it is copyrighted (in fact, bondage.com has a list but gives no claim to it). The person (or group) is the Electric Switch of the West (bdsm-education.com).
Also, does anyone think it may be wrong to try and keep a list like that away from the everyone? My point is this: it is educational and should be free for anyone to share and distribute; much like a list of steps on how to avoid getting a STD.

 

[Mr Blonde]

I don't think I have have ever seen the same checklist twice. There are dozens of checklists on the internet so I don't really understand the question.

If there is not an author/owner listed and no restrictive comments plainly visible, I consider anything I see on the internet to be in the public domain.

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

I am sure that most of us have seen a D/s activity checklist (the one that lists a bunch of activities and then asks the sub to rate it). I recently did a search to find one online and just about every site I was coming across stated they had to take it down because someone claimed to be the copyright owner of the list.
After doing some research (and consulting with an online attorney; I am going to consult a real-life attorney this week), this person has no copyright filed with the government (therefore cannot sue anyone), and that this list is most likely unclaimable by anyone because it is a simple list--recipies are a good example of lists that cannot be copyrighted.
Also, at this persons website, it seems she is very distraught that people keep on using it despite her claims on it: probably because these people know that she has no legal claim.
I wanted to know if anyone has dealt with this person or has seen the same messages on websites that it is copyrighted (in fact, bondage.com has a list but gives no claim to it). The person (or group) is the Electric Switch of the West (bdsm-education.com).
Also, does anyone think it may be wrong to try and keep a list like that away from the everyone? My point is this: it is educational and should be free for anyone to share and distribute; much like a list of steps on how to avoid getting a STD.

I read her diatribe on her site. She is attempting to discredit a person who is no longer living (Tammad Ramilla), and making statements about things that occurred before the internet was even the friggin INTERNET for chrissakes. How she expects to PROVE anything, from clear back in the dark ages of Usenet (1982) is beyond me.

It seems to me, that BDSM checklists are the type of work that can be developed concurrently by more than one person at one time. They just aren't that blasted complicated. My personal opinion on them, is that they are public domain, having been part of the internet world since the thing went live. I don't think she's got a leg to stand on myself. Bondage.com has had their own lists as part of their own copyrighted site, since their inception.

While I'm not a lawyer, common sense tells me she's barking in the wind.

~anelize

 

[ImaMember]

Follow-up

Well, it appears that she may be the owner of it, though it is not registered with the government. Therefore she cannot take legal action on anyone (for example, anyone who has her exact list on their site can keep it up as long as they like until she gets it registered, then she can sue). However, she only has rights to the format of the list, not the item listing themselves. SO, anyone can make their own list, just as long as it doesn't resemble her list (and that is a slippery slope because only a court can determine if it is copied or not).
Also, because she claims ownership from way back in 1982, has never registered for a copyright, and tries to sue someone today, she may not win anything because she took so long in getting it registered.

Therefore, I consider her list to be old and clunky, and I think I'll make my own list, not caring about copyrights and reproduction of it, and make it more modern looking.

 

[mellian]

i don't know what check list i done last week, but it was useful.

as for copyrighting it.....is that even possible?

-mellian

 

[Limbhugger]

<<<------- Is glad Wife has no interest in such things.

 

[incubus_dark]

The current trend is for people to assume that because they wrote, drew, photographed or otherwise thought of something, that they automatically have copyright over it. They often say as much and even put little C stamps on things. However, very few people, relatively speaking, are willing to pay the few hundred to a thousand or so dollars (depending on the country) for national copyright protections, let alone the several thousand for internations protections. Further, alot of stuff is done using corporate or university resources, where as a matter of course, intellectual rights can not be claimed by the creator without consent of the body involved.

Alot of people have seen TV shows or read news articles involving copy claim cases where some nobody litigates against some somebody and wins, but this isn't reafirming the litigants ownership of the copy, but only establishing that the copyright holder didn't have a legal right to claim copyright on the items in question. That is, the originator doesn't have copyright, but if they can demonstrate that they are the originator, then nobody else has the right to establish copyright on their intellectual property without their permission.

The practical upshot is that almost nothing is actually copyrighted but it's cheaper and just as effective to pretend it is rather than actually file the paperwork, which for net crap, everybody more or less ignores anyway. This doesn't apply to commercial sector things, like entertainment industry materials, where everything is copyrighted (though interestingly enough, most porn is only copyrighted in the nation of origin so buy foreign movies and copy them to your heart's content).

Thus, you can use what you want of the list in question if you don't try and copyright it yourself, or alternatively, you can tweak the nose of the petty fool and claim a prior right by saying you wrote the list by hand yourself in 1953 and then demand she stop using it or prove otherwise.

 

[Prof Bill]

Lists and Ownership

For what it's worth, I've written a list for myself. It goes beyond the usual "yes/no" and numbering system (although I do use that) to ask some questions that I think are much more important. I developed as a member of a group and all I've asked is that both the group and I receive credit when it's used. To my knowledge, the only one who's asked to use it is Miss Constance in Louisville for her Intro To BDSM classes.

The best such set of lists I've seen is found on BDSM.com. They're well worth a visit.

Now, what do they tell one person about another? Well, they tell a little bit about experience, and they tell a little bit about a fantasy life. Both of these are valuable, but beyond that they're not very important, in my opinion (I used to think ther were of tremendous importance).

I find it's much more important to know about both good and bad experiences--sexual and otherwise--that a potential partner has had. I find it much more important to know about past trauma--whether abuse, emotional and/or physical injury, or any other upsetting and potentially destabilizing experience--than anything else.

I'm an experienced Dom. I know that one of my jobs is to stretch limits. I've done that. I'm not an idiot. I know when I'm treading ground that should not be trod. The sub that says she doesn't ever want to "do anal" doesn't worry me. I know that if I want her to do anal, I'll be able to get her to love anal sex. I don't need to know those "limits."

I do, however, need to know what her relationship with her father was. Did he abuse her? Was he sexual with her? Did he never give her support or encouragement? Or what? I need to know those things in case I ever want to take a swing by age play. Discovering that you've opened a Pandora's box of emotions after you've begun something is not a way to build trust.

So, bottom line, there are lots of lists out there to use, but recognize that they are of limited value for anything more serious than a half-hour of play at a party.

Good luck to all.

Prof Bill

 

[Kajira Callista]

I think this link might prove interesting to the ppl posting here. http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html Im not 100% positive if it was lit or another site i post my writing on that states in the faq section that once your name is on it , it is legally copyrighted...im gonna take a look and see if i can find where i read it...will post if i do.

 

[NCShin]

well I was going to stay out of this since I do not have a law degree. BUT i can't resist.

I know that there are a few steps in enforcing a copyrighted "work" the first of which is sending a cease and desist order. From my limited knowledge this has to come from a lawyer and state that you are infringing on copywrited material etc etc etc.

So, assuming this has been done to everyone who has this checklist posted, the person would then have to file a civil suit in order to force that person to stop. I'm sure there could be some temporary injunctions and so on.

Once this was done and it actually got into court, the person claiming ownership would have to prove that they in fact are the original author. I think this would be highly difficult. A log file from the ISP from the original posting might do it, if it could be proven it had never been posted anywhere else prior and had not been being passed around as a paper version prior to that.

Now even assuming all this has been done, I'm still not sure that a LIST is copyrightable. The format may be, but I don't think that they'd have much ground to stand on for claiming that only they could come up with a list of terms.

 

[ImaMember]

What my lawyer said:

1. The list is copyrightable, but not the facts in the list; just the visual expression of the list is copyrightable.

2. Anything you write (including these posts on this board) is automatically copyrighted by YOU, the writer. The only thing you have to do to claim ownership on your post, is to put the "copyright" symbol somewhere at it with your name and the year (you own it until 50 years after your death).

3. HOWEVER, in order to enforce any of your rights under copyright law, you MUST pay the $30 some dollars to file is with the copyright office.

4. If you wrote something back in 1982 and never filed for a copyright, you are still the owner of the work. But, if you wait until 2004 to start asking people to remove it from their sites and then register your work, you now run into "latches." This term basically states that because you waited so long, you are estopped from benifiting from any monetary damages (though the other guy still has to observe your copyright ownership).

5. Just because something is copyrighted doesn't mean it the facts cannot be reproduced and arranged differently in a new format (which is what the aurhor of the list in question tried to do). However, you must be careful because only a JUDGE can really determine if it was copied and rearranged or is a completely different set of work.

6. Some good references: www.copyright.gov , www.whatiscopyright.org , and the one that a previous poster posted.

7. Always assume everything you find on the net is copyrighted; this will insure your safety in accidentlally making a potential oops.

8. The person of the original list in question does not have a filed copyright, therefore cannot enforce any of her rights (though she can still go out and get one, but she has to have PROOF that she is the originator).

9. Because the list had been published in many books and online hundreds of times, she is going to have a VERY difficult time proving she is the originator--she has to have the original 1982 emails or proof that she wrote in a book and snail mailed it to her that year (otherwise no proof of date is given and anyone after 1982 can claim it as theirs if they have proof).

10. I talked to three different lawyers, and my list's visual expression is different. However, she can always get a copyright filed and try to sue me over it, but because she has been "harrassing" someone else for four years about it without a legal action, I doubt I have anything to worry about.

Wow! I learned more about copyright law than I really wanted to.

 

[FungiUg]

In New Zealand, you don't need to put the copyright symbol on something to make it copyrighted. There are complications though when it comes to whether you are working for someone, what is in your contract in regards to copyright and so on. But generally speaking, if you write something, it's copyrighted.

Of course, proving copyright is a whole 'nother ball game. So generally those who want to be able to prove copyright will file a copy as "proof" with a lawyer.

However, only the actual writing (or artwork) is copyrighted. So you could quite legally write another list which contained similar ideas.

 

[erotic_writer_girl]

copyright

here is the easiest article I have seen on copyright and I have permission to reproduce it here from the copyright owner.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Copyright is the ownership of the rights to reproduce a work you
have created. Copyright can be bought and sold. It can be inherited. Copyright has a shelf life! In most countries I know of and all those who are signators to the Berne Convention copyright ownership ends a number of years after the death of the creator! (Often 50 - 75 years)

Speak your creation onto a tape, perform it on video, carve it into
wood, Build it with clay, type it onto paper or a disc, in other
words record your work in a tangible way, any tangible form! Once you have created it you now own the copyright to that work! Wellah! Magic! Done! Nothing hard about that! No secrets, no library involvement, no "Please, Sir can I?". This is true in all countries who are signators to the Berne Convention.

OK so why is there a whole bunch of articles on the Internet and in books telling us to submit out works to places like the Library of
Congress, or the Writers Guilds? Simple, getting copyright is easy.
Proving it is yours is the hard part.

Many of us are closet workers. we sit in our offices (home or
business) typing away, drawing, painting, our creations. Creative
pursuits are often solitary pursuits. There is no evidence that we
created something, nor is there any evidence of when we created it.

Supposing a person decides they like the story you emailed to them and want to have it as their own, literally. They could recreate the story in a word file on their computer, change a couple character names and then send it off to a publisher and claim a zillion dollars in royalty. A week later your manuscript lands on that same publisher's desk and they read it and say "Hey we just published this story. What are you trying to do?" Next thing in the mail you receive a letter saying, "This story is brilliant we know because we just published it! We also sent the royalties to the 'real' writer.

At this point in time your blood boils! You do a little dance, play
darts with a picture of the thief and try to resist the urge to
throttle them.

After making some enquiries and finding out the person who submitted the story is the same person you sent your story to in friendship you wonder what can you do about it?

If your manuscript has been lodged with an organisation such as the Writers Guild in your country or the Library of Congress you can prove that you wrote the story before a particular date.

This however is not enough as the other person could claim they
created the story five years before that and court battles are
expensive and time consuming. The average writer could write a few novels in the time it takes to pursue any matter through the courts. You will have an advantage but you wont necessarily win a case if that is your only evidence.

Here are some common sense tips to keeping the copyright of your work safe.

Keep a log of all your work: Include in the log the date started,
the date the first draft and each subsequent draft is finished.
Record the details of who edited it, Anyone you showed it or
submitted it to and the date you showed it to them. Also the date
you sent it to the Writers Guild or the Library of Congress etc.

Keep each draft! Yes every draft of your story. You can keep them on a floppy disc date each one. I would print the first draft and final drafts and keep that too. Buy some big envelopes and pop them in that. You may never need this but in the event of a court battle the court can then view the development of the story for themselves. If you have submitted it to an editor, keep all correspondence about it. Don't delete that email, save it instead.

It needs to be said that the old story of gaining 'poor man's
copyright' by mailing an envelope of your manuscript to yourself
will not stand up in a court! Opening envelopes and replacing the
contents is too easy.

I hope this has helped give you a clearer view of copyright.

Here are some sites which you can investigate to learn more about copyright.

Copyright law
check out the law about your creative expressions and who owns them and how to keep your rights!!
http://www.laderapress.com/laderapress/copyrightlaw1.html

Electronic Rights
Read up on your rights and what you should seek in your
contracts....... does first rights mean electronic rights???
http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/electronic.html

More Info on Copyright
be informed!!
http://www.nesl.edu/research/intprop.cfm

More on copyright law
get yourself informed!!
http://profs.lp.findlaw.com/copyright/copyright_7.html

RIAA
Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable excuse...!! Find out about your copyright!
http://www.riaa.org/Copyright-What.cfm

Read up on YOUR COPYRIGHT
being informed is the first step to protecting YOUR RIGHTS
http://www.batnet.com/oikoumene/MMLAW_02.PDF

The Berne Convention: long version
here is what these united countries say about your rights!! and what kind of work is covered by copyright and what countries are members of the Berne Convention
http://www.cerebalaw.com/berne.htm

The Berne Convention: short version
A quick overall picture of the Berne Convention
http://www.indexstock.com/pages/berne.htm

copyright CRO 2003
first published at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AustraliaTheWorldWordsmiths/

 

[oo0_boo_0oo]

here is the easiest article I have seen on copyright and I have permission to reproduce it here from the copyright owner

The copyright to a copyright article.... funny as!!!