Cutters, masochists, and the responsible Dom/me

[KillerMuffin]

There's a segment of the population that practices something called self-injury. They're also called cutters because the typical MO is to cut oneself with an object of some sort. However, other self-injurers will burn themselves, pick at scabs (also known interference with healing), or will use an object like a hammer to bruise or break themselves.

There is a difference, I think, between someone who self-injures and masochism. The cutter usually isn't in it for the pain, from the various journals and discussions I've had. Cutters cut themselves because that's the only way they get heavy or disturbing feelings to come out. Cutters can, but generally don't derive sexual pleasure, it's all emotional release. Masochists use pain for sexual reasons. Masochists don't usually hurt themselves unless there's no other way to do it. They generally prefer it when someone else hurts them, preferably a sadist so they'll enjoy the act with them. This is, again, gleaned from what I've read and discussion.

So what's a Dom/me to do when the sub is a cutter? The psychological needs that a cutter has is beyond what a Dom can do for him or her. A Dom can't make it better or do anything to solve the problem without professional intervention. How does a Dom deal with it? Is this something one usually notices or is it one of those things you never think of? Do you trust the cutter to know what's best for him or herself in regards to cutting? Any other input?

 

[Pure]

you're in way over your head

 

[MissTaken]

We have had several cutters post about this on the forum. I am lousy with the search function, but will answer just the same.

A Dom/me must get their sub into treatment. In fact, that the cutter has engaged in a power exchange may be to their benefit in that the Dom can mandate the sub into therapy or to participate in medication regime.

A cutter who self inflicts such pain in order to release feelings is fighting depression or some other mental health diagnosis.

Cutting, blood letting, releases seratonin....which is much safer to get by prescription.

A Dom who actually engages in the activity with a sub such as this is highly irresponsible and IMHO, abusive.

Treatment by professionals is what is called for,

not a socially acceptable place in which to act upon the mental health need.

Unfortunately, there are likely to be subs who engage in the lifestyle for that very reason. It isn't "weird" to want to cut when you are in an S and M relationship. However, it does not negate the treatment needs of the sub or the responsibility of the Dom.

BDSM should NEVER replace medical or mental health treatment. Never!

 

[KillerMuffin]

I'm not involved in the lifestyle so I'm not in way over my head, I'm not in anything at all.

 

[~Dream~]

here here Miss T..

Very well said .. my now 18 yr-old daughter used to be a "cutter' and was told she did it just to 'get attention' ,,,since then she has gotten a more reliable doctor and was put on Zoloft for 'panic-anxiety-disorder... Nothing but nothing comes before the physical and mental health needs of the sub , or it Shouldn't in My eyes anyways..

 

[lilredwolph]

i am a cutter and a maso sub - i have never had a Dom that tried to stop me from cutting, the need to cut comes from deep within me so the desire to not cut needs to come from that same place. if somebody tried to force me to stop i would must likely withdraw from them and end up cutting more

and i DO cut for the pain, i also self injury in other ways for the pain - physical pain is easier for me to deal with the mental pain so i turn the mental into physical - it is a coping method and is in no way sexual for me

 

[WriterDom]

Damn, must have taken a while to come up with this edge. My last sub's sister had this disorder. It's not something I associate with bdsm.

 

[UCE]

Cutting is a very difficult issue for a non-professional to deal with. It has complex and deep emotional roots that go back into the cutter's childhood, usually. If someone were that person's fulltime dominant and they were the naturally theraputic sort, they might be able to deal with it on their own, although it would be a long and difficult process, and I would certainly advise a dominant of such a person to find a professional they could trust to seek advice with the tricky aspects of it. But if the dominant is just a friend of the cutter, this isn't something most laypeople can take on as a project. This isn't like helping the sub to loose weight. This is big time.

There are many psychological specialists who deal with cutting, there are even in-patient clinics that women who have this condition most severely can go to. In my experience the friend of a cutter should encourage her (they're almost all women--sigh) to get professional help from people skilled in working with this condition. If you are a cutter, it's probably a good idea--if you can manage it--not to seek a dominant, not to play in the bdsm world, not to indulge in submissiveness or masochism at all until you've gotten some theraputic help to get your habit under control. The reason I suggest this is because it's really easy for cutters to get their cutting urges confused with their submissive urges and their masochism. If they get involved in the Scene, they might even be praised and given loads of attention for their disease from ignorant people who see it as a form of normal masochism. Also, the intensities of bdsm play and dom-sub relationships can cause a cutter to get worse, even if she is naturally submissive, because these intensities stir up old memories and issues from one's childhood.

Keep the cutting separate from your sex life, if at all possible. That includes espcially what you say to therapists. The great majority of them, while they might be experts at dealing with cutters, will not understand your submissive or masochistic urgers or see them as part of your cutting illness and try to cure you of those as well. Don't mention that part of your sexuality to a therapist--they are like car engine experts who shouldn't be allowed near the brakes, because they will try to apply their engine lore to a completely different mechanism with...always... disasterous results.

 

[UCE]

Damn, must have taken a while to come up with this edge. My last sub's sister had this disorder. It's not something I associate with bdsm.

The majority of submissives I have known, met, or known of over the last 12 or 14 years have had this condition. They usually keep pretty quiet about it.

 

[UCE]

somebody tried to force me to stop i would must likely withdraw from them and end up cutting more

Right. It's that strong an urge for most cutters. That's why if you ever want to deal with, a in-patient clinic for cutters is a good place. The staff is trained to deal just with your condition...in all sorts of ways. I believe that some kinds of drugs help cutters, but the drug therapy is always combined with behavioral therapy and psychotherapy as well.

It's very hard in such a place, just as it is in any detox center where they keep you away from your addiction. Sometimes the women go temporarily nuts, they get so frustrated. You can imagine, probably. So it's not something to do unless you really feel that you have to quit and you are motivated to do so, because it'll probably take all your willpower plus everything the staff does for you.

I only know this stuff because a close submissive friend of mine was a shrink for awhile in such a place.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Personally, I hold to the "tend your own garden" model of psychiatry. In my experience, the people who spend the most time psychoanalyzing everyone around them are usually the people in greatest need of a little analysis themselves. It's the Freudian paradigm.

Of course, I'm sure I'm not very credible, and that's okay too.

JMO, of course.

RS,
Human & Resident Cynic

 

[lilredwolph]

excuse me for a minute but ...

the following is not a true or fair statement, I have Never confused the need to cut with the want to be spanked nor do a know any cutter/ subs that have. Cutting and submissivness fulfill 2 completely differant needs, and I personally do not see how somebody could confuse the 2

<snip>If you are a cutter, it's probably a good idea--if you can manage it--not to seek a dominant, not to play in the bdsm world, not to indulge in submissiveness or masochism at all until you've gotten some theraputic help to get your habit under control. The reason I suggest this is because it's really easy for cutters to get their cutting urges confused with their submissive urges and their masochism.<snip>

Any relationship which is not working can do the same

<snip>Also, the intensities of bdsm play and dom-sub relationships can cause a cutter to get worse, even if she is naturally submissive, because these intensities stir up old memories and issues from one's childhood.<snip>

I have not cut or self injured in years, and I did not seek help or sit in a hospital I lost my urges when i removed the mental pain from my life

<snip>Right. It's that strong an urge for most cutters. That's why if you ever want to deal with, a in-patient clinic for cutters is a good place. The staff is trained to deal just with your condition...in all sorts of ways. I believe that some kinds of drugs help cutters, but the drug therapy is always combined with behavioral therapy and psychotherapy as well.

It's very hard in such a place, just as it is in any detox center where they keep you away from your addiction. Sometimes the women go temporarily nuts, they get so frustrated. You can imagine, probably. So it's not something to do unless you really feel that you have to quit and you are motivated to do so, because it'll probably take all your willpower plus everything the staff does for you. <snip>

no you don't know your stuff you know what you were told which is not always true (i don't think it is even mostly true)

<snip>I only know this stuff because a close submissive friend of mine was a shrink for awhile in such a place.<snip>

you can not tell me how a cutters mind works unless you are 1, no more than you can tell me what a bird thinks. I have read and reread what you have written and it is nothing more than the textbook white lab coat definition with abit of personal opinion tossed in

 

[KillerMuffin]

I should have been more clear, redwolph, I didn't mean to be disrespectful. The ultimate goal in cutting isn't to feel the pain, it's to get rid of whatever is emotionally upsetting. I think this is only significant in the relationship because--and I'm not stating this as flat fact either--masochists goal in hurting themselves is the physiological rush that pain gives because it adds to the sexual sensations. Does that sound more correct?


Something that I found horribly interesting about the whole deal is that therapists that I've spoken with said that friends and family should not try to stop the cutter from cutting unless what the cutter is doing is life or quality of life threatening. That is, suicidal or cutting things like tendons or putting cigarettes in their eyes. The cutter should not quit cold turkey, as it were.

Cutting isn't the problem. No, really. The problem is inside and cutting is a coping mechanism. If you take the coping mechanism away from the cutter, you're going to more damage to the cutter than if you'd just let him or her be. Or so I've read.


My motive in creating this thread wasn't to psychoanalyze cutters or find out how to help anyone heal themselves. I was thinking of this from a BDSM perspective. Some subs will be honest about their cutting while others probably won't be. How does a Dom deal with that? Cutting is so close to masochism that some cutters are also masochists. From the outside of the disorder, a lot of people probably think that cutting and masochism are one in the same. I'm willing to bet that the average cutter will tell you that they're not.

So, what does a Dom do? How does this alter the relationship and how to make it a psychologically healthier one for both parties? What does the BDSM perspective bring to a relationship where one person is a cutter? I'm not asking this in a condescending you're not helping tone. I'm asking this because I think BDSM brings a very unique acceptance of people using pain in ways that the man on the street thinks is institutionalizing behavior.

I'm not in this situation. I am not going to relay advice or do something to "help" people in this situation because cutting is just far enough outside of normal that cutters already know that something is wrong. They don't need me to rub it in their face and refer them to a professional.

 

[UCE]

excuse me for a minute but ...

the following is not a true or fair statement, ..(rest of message very similar in tone snipped).

Everything I wrote is true for the cutters I have known. Whether it is true for you personally is not my business. I thought it would be of interest, however, in general.

I wasn't writing directly to you in that message, I was making general comments. I'm sorry if you mistook the advice as personal.

 

[Pure]

KM's thoughts:

KM:Cutting isn't the problem. No, really. The problem is inside and cutting is a coping mechanism. //

OH, I see.

KM: If you take the coping mechanism away from the cutter, you're going to more damage to the cutter than if you'd just let him or her be. Or so I've read. //

Yes, you've read. Psychoanalytic Quarterly, no doubt.

KM: My motive in creating this thread wasn't to psychoanalyze cutters //

Just to discuss their "coping mechanisms."

KM: or find out how to help anyone heal themselves. I was thinking of this from a BDSM perspective. //

OH, now I see, you are 'thinking' from a bdsm perspective

Does that happen often?

In case it's not obvious, that " bdsm perspective" is....

KM: Some subs will be honest about their cutting while others probably won't be. How does a Dom deal with that? //

Material for "The Responsible Dom/me" by Killer Muffin and click here for my other essays or visit my website.

 

[Cirrus]

KM, I'd be interested to know why, if you're not interested in what we do, and who we are, why you come over here with ideas and opinions that are not fully formed until you've learned more about the subject? Then you get irate when someone questions their validity...

Cutting is not isolated to those in the BDSM lifestyle, just like any emotional problem or behavior. Say, for instance, that I am a masosub and suffer from bipolar disorder (I don't), would it be fair to say that all masosubs are bipolar? I didn't think so.

I think the issue of sub or Dom/me is irrelevent here. What is ANY partner "supposed" to do when the one they love self injures, regardless of the power dynamic in the relationship? Even if I had an answer, it would only apply some of the time, since every person, every relationship, every cutter, and every situation is different. What works for one may not work for another.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Such hostility. What the fuck did I do to you? Pure, If I knew what the BDSM perspective was, why would I be asking you? Doh!

I'm not questioning anyone's validity, here, Cirrus. You're the only one doing that and the only one you're questioning is me. So far, I'm getting information that I already know. If someone is a cutter, then laypeople aren't going to be able to help them overcome it. That's obvious information and has nothing to do with BDSM. If I had fully formed ideas about BDSM, why in the heck would I bring them here?

And yes, there's a big difference between a non-BDSM relationship involving a cutter and a BDSM relationship involving a cutter. Non-BDSMers do not usually get involved in edge-play and non-BDSMers are not quite so understanding about the way people use pain. More importantly, cutting does not affect the sex-life of non-BDSMers and I would think it would affect the sex-life of BDSMers. I don't know, which is why I'm asking. I also think that because a lot of BDSM relationships use pain as a regular part of the relationship, that a cutter's use of pain in ways that isn't healthy it's going to disrupt the relationship.

I'm not saying that all cutters are masochists, though I imagine some are. I don't think cutting has anything to do with masochism. I think cutting is unhealthy behavior. I used to think masochism was, too. I don't think that any more. You can't compare bi-polar to cutting because cutting, I would think, has a unique affect on a relationship where pain is supposed to be used in a healthy manner. When pain is used in an unhealthy manner, it only makes sense that it throws a monkey wrench into the works.

I'm not wording myself well with these questions, I don't think. I don't want to know details about the individual or from personal experience. I want to know about these things in general from the BDSM perspective. There's only one way to get that, ask you about it. I know it affects relationships, and I am vaguely certain that because pain is involved, it affects BDSM relationships differently than it does non-BDSM relationships.

I am NOT being patronizing, condescending, or judgmental here. I am not trying to put down BDSM or try to indict BDSM as a horrible thing. I am not even trying to pretend that I know all about BDSM and the way it works. I change my opinion and yes, you can change my opinion because you have superior knowledge.

If you don't like me, that's fine. But don't sit there and carry on like I'm here to hurt or judge people, because I'm not. I'm here because I want to make sure that what I'm thinking is right and to alter it if it's not. If you can't deal with that, then pick your fight in the appropriate forum.

I cannot believe that someone would begrude me understanding, particularly in a sub-culture that professes to want understanding rather than the judgmental bigotry you generally get from people in the mainstream.

 

[Pure]

Continuing the "thoughts" of Killer Muffin:


KM: And yes, there's a big difference between a non-BDSM relationship involving a cutter and a BDSM relationship involving a cutter. //

And you know this, how?

KM: Non-BDSMers do not usually get involved in edge-play and non-BDSMers are not quite so understanding about the way people use pain. More importantly, cutting does not affect the sex-life of non-BDSMers //

And you know this, how?

KM: and I would think it would affect the sex-life of BDSMers.

Finally!! I know what I am-- a "BSDMer"! Thanks.

KM: I don't know, which is why I'm asking. //

Funny, before this statement, I see no questions, no "I think" or
"maybe" or "I speculate" or "I wonder if..."


KM: I also think that because a lot of BDSM relationships use pain as a regular part of the relationship, that a cutter's use of pain in ways that isn't healthy it's going to disrupt the relationship.//

I hope the grammar of your "Responsible Dom/me" treatise is better than this.
[///]
KM: I cannot believe that someone would begrude me understanding,//

Do run a spelling check on that essay, also. As to the substance,

KM: So far, I'm getting information that I already know.

Take note, lilredwolph, if you're playing this game, this lady's VERY knowledgeable. Please be sure your material is novel for her!! ;-)

 

[lilredwolph]

KM - i didn't think you were judging me, but i am not sure what you are asking. i am going to state a few things.

my cutting doesn't effect my relationships BDSM or 'Nilla, but my relationships effect my cutting

when the urge to cut happens, i want to be alone it is not a feeling i could share. cutting is a very personal thing, i need to be focused on me and me alone

the urge to cut needs to be satisfied by me, nobody else could "cut" me and remove the urge

my maso self wants and enjoys pain, me the cutter needs the pain, i do not enjoy the cutting pain, but it triggers a relief

i do partake in edge play and body modification by scarring, but the feeling i get when doing so is nothing like the release i feel from cutting

i don't think that me being a cutter has anything to do with me being a masochist. i have never had those parts of me meet because they are driven by differant emotional/mental states


here is a statement you (KM) make that i am having a hard time with because i'm not sure i am reading it right
"And yes, there's a big difference between a non-BDSM relationship involving a cutter and a BDSM relationship involving a cutter"
I have been in both types of relationships and neither was easier or harder than the other when it came to cutting

 

[KillerMuffin]

Xenophobia is unbecoming, Pure.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I don't think I'm phrasing myself very well, lilredwolph.

I have the feeling that for the cutter, the type of relationship doesn't probably make much of a difference as far as one's desire to cut. That's if I'm getting this correctly.

What I am wondering is how cutting affects the BDSM relationship. I'm using to logic to get to the conclusion that because BDSM relationships use pain in a healthy way--that is to further the relationship and enjoyment of both partners--and cutting uses pain in an unhealthy way--that's to cope with emotional stress (if I'm getting this correctly)--then you have one partner using pain in a healthy manner and one partner who is, at least part of the time, using pain in an unhealthy manner. I think that this would disrupt the BDSM aspect of the relationship in ways that I can't imagine. I know it disrupts all relationships, but I would think that because of the special nature in BDSM, it might have a different kind of impact. Does jibe with the way you think of things?

I don't mean for this to be painful or intrusive. I certainly don't mean to be offensive. And despite this Pure person's views on my character, I don't think I know it all. But that's its opinion and it's welcome to it.

 

[lilredwolph]

your looking at cutting as unhealthy which is not all together true, for me it was the healthiest thing i could have done, because without cutting i would have been in very bad shape emotionally. at the point where i was cutting heavily and often the cutting gave me a release, without cutting it would have built up to a point where i would have become suicidal.
at one point i tried to stop myself from cutting when i would feel the urge i would deny myself the release, and i ended up attempting suicide. so until i was mentally and emotionally ready to stand up and face the things that made me cut, cutting was a healthy option. (does that make sense?)

yes i use both cutting pain and maso pain, but the use of them is done for totally differant reasons and outcomes.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Let's be careful not to let this slide into personal flame war, okay? Right now, it's standing on the edge of a precipice.

If you do not like the opinions offered, my suggestion is to leave the thread rather than escalate hostilities.

RS,
Forum Moderator

~~~
And on occasion, I even take my own advice, too.

RS,
Human & Resident Cynic

 

[Pure]

lilred to KM

youre looking at cutting as unhealthy which is not all together true, for me it was the healthiest thing i could have done, because without cutting i would have been in very bad shape emotionally.

This is an excellent point, lil red. Outside the simple world of some mental health professionals, and _DSM IV_, "unhealthy" (of mind) is quite problematic. I'd propose that, perhaps, cutting yourself is no more unhealthy, in and of itself, than downing an ounce of scotch. The only certainty is that if you do it hard, 'deep' and often, you will kill yourself.

 

[Pure]

.