custody battles

[Roxanne Appleby]

My only wish is that he cares enough about his new baby to actually see it grow up. . . . I hope one day he realises that by hurting me, he has hurt himself far more.

He won't, and he won't - see my "People don't change" thread.

You have been extremely wise and enlightened in how you have chosen to behave and think about this. Congratulations, and best wishes.

 

[Just-Legal]

I'm going to laugh at Ami here because I know that he's talking bullshit. Two of my friends at college (UK College 16-18) were brought up by same sex parents. One - D - father had died and the other - J - mother was... well "evil bitch from hell" doesn't cover it - her words and NOT her fathers. J was dragged through some serious custody battles but through it all her father was straight with her (excuse the pun) and had always made it clear if she wanted to go with her mother then she could - she didn't.

Both said that yes, they did miss their parents occasionally, J less than D, but neither felt that they had really missed out. Both are now happily married in hetero relationships, D has two kids, J one. And they have both said that they much preferred being raised by two people that loved them, and each other, than going through the hell of hetero parents some of their friends has.

But Ami won't read this because he's afraid that someone might actually prove him wrong. *eyeroll*.

 

[rachlou]

He won't, and he won't - see my "People don't change" thread.

You have been extremely wise and enlightened in how you have chosen to behave and think about this. Congratulations, and best wishes.

You're right - he won't.

Thanks

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

For the record, Ami is not only wrong in the opinion he's stated regarding homosexual adoption, but to the extent he bases that opinion on Objectivist philosophy, it is based on a very skewed and inaccurate interpretation of same. One of the key tenets of Objectivism is that human behavior is not deterministic but is the product of choice. It is a contradiction to believe this and also make an assertion that a certain human activity - child rearing - is bound by deterministic contraints.

Further, Ayn Rand was a brilliant philosopher, and I personally believe the world would be a much better place if Objectivism became the societal norm, but the philosophy was not "frozen" upon Rand's death - there is unfinished work to be done in it. Furthermore, Rand's description of romantic love is unquestionably the weakest area of her work. Frankly I find it laughable, and a completely inaccurate description of human nature and behavior. And I am a "flaming Objectivist!" (Or a smouldering one, anyway. As Pure never tires of pointing out when responding to almost anything I say on practically any subject. )

Bottom line: While Ami's descriptions of Objectivist views are generally not-inaccurate (even if it they are often expressed in an intolerant and ungracious form), in this area his view is not in synch with key tenets of the philosophy. If he wants to pick a bone with me about this please do so in another thread and I will respond - I've already jacked this one enough.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Damn... if I'd known it was a personal question, Fem, I would have put a happier spin on it...

In fact, over time, things have actually gotten better with the ex and I... it still sucks, but it's better. We're actually civil to each other now, even if he still insists to everyone that we got divorced because "We just couldn't talk anymore"... while I contend it was because he was fucking everything in hot pants...

I honestly wish we could have gotten our emotional stuff out of the way and been bigger people a lot sooner... but we were just too young and stupid... Live and learn... when you know better, you do better, to paraphrase Maya Angelou...

 

[jakebarnes06]

My ramblings on the subject

I'm in bearlee's corner on this one.

My ex and I both are practicing family law attorneys. We divorced when our daughter was in high school AND we were partners in our own law firm. We knew the horrors of a protracted custody battle and we decided to avoid those horrors at all costs. Our judgment of divorce made the legal minimum of mention regarding our daughter. Instead, we made our own agreements and we either stuck with them or changed them after talking. I won't try and tell anyone the agreements were reached easily because many weren't, but with give and take on both our parts, we made it work.

Our motivation was simple: our daughter's future was paramount.

We chose to live a couple blocks apart. We chose to attend our daughter's school and athletic events, frequently sitting together and greeting her together after the events. Our daughter spent the time with me that she needed and the time with her mother that she needed. We chose to continue practicing law together until our daughter was graduated from college. Child support and other financial issues [college tuition, etc] were handled through mutually agreed salary adjustments.

Our daughter recently turned twenty-six. She has a good job, but much more importantly, she has a mature self concept, she is well adjusted and she enjoys an excellent relationship with not only her mother and me, but also with our respective new spouses.

In our case, the "system" worked because we were able to set personal differences aside and avoid the "system." Others can do what we did, but usually they require the assistance of skilled attorneys, counselors or mediators.

Sometimes though, when one party simply is unwilling to adhere to simple concepts of courtesy and common sense, nothing works.

Someone mentioned that he/she is unable to communicate with the ex. Such failure is a common cause of not only divorce, but of bitterness afterward. I believe the failure of communication is a CHOICE usually brought about by at least one party's emotional decision not to limit communication to the future and insisting instead on dredging up personal slights from the past that do not need to be and probably can't be resolved.

Unfortunately today's "system" is both overworked and understaffed. Perhaps in someone's rose colored mind once upon a time the "system" was intended to be the investigative tool through which the solution to each family's breakup would be determined in a fair and impartial manner. Even if such a goal ever were intended, the "system" no longer is a self-starting mechanism by which a substantially overpowered individual ["overpowered" can mean many things in this context] can compete on an even playing field.

Several people mentioned that what is needed is a complete overhaul. I ask, an overhaul of what? Not the "system." Bureaucracy never has been effective to micro-manage personal issues between two indivuduals. I believe that what needs to be changed is people's attitudes before marriages are consumated and before babies are created. That change can be brought about only by education, education and more education. Television, via its PSAs, makes a weak attempt at such a goal, but then undoes that attempt with its sitcoms and so called reality based shows.

In the end, it's two people who decide either to work together to resolve their difficulties or to fight over those difficulties. If there's a fight, there rarely is a winner, but there frequently are losers . . . our children.

Sorry if I got preachy. It's a touchy subject to me.

 

[CharleyH]

I wanted to thank you for your post Roxanne and give you my appreciation as it seems no one has.

It took 10 years and well over $100,000, but I finally got custody of my five children. But it doesn't end there, of course. Each one of the children yearn for a 'mother' they never had.

And on All Poetry, and a few other sites with young writers, I read, everyday, of young boys and girls who never even knew their father.

It is a "total fucking disaster", and the social institutions have failed us and 'moral relativism' offers only a worsening situation, along with same sex couples adopting children, a thought that make me want to vomit.

I thought for a while, as a consolation, I think, that the trauma my children went through with multiple step-fathers and boyfriends, would strengthen then, it did not. I cannot begin to imagine the overall national social impact of a full generation of children without a stable family foundation.

I always try to be optimistic about such things but in this issue I see no light at the end of the tunnel.

I imagine I will unsubscribe to this thread as I do not wish to participate and I doubt anything useful will be posted. But again, thank you and best wishes for the new year.


amicus...

LOL. Ami.

No offense Fem.

 

[scheherazade_79]

It is a "total fucking disaster", and the social institutions have failed us and 'moral relativism' offers only a worsening situation, along with same sex couples adopting children, a thought that make me want to vomit.

Ami, admit it - you're a bit of an arsehole on the quiet, aren't you?

 

[CharleyH]

Ami, admit it - you're a bit of an arsehole on the quiet, aren't you?

LOL - Scheh? You must give him some credit here. Think about it. LOL

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I'm in bearlee's corner on this one.

My ex and I both are practicing family law attorneys. We divorced when our daughter was in high school AND we were partners in our own law firm. We knew the horrors of a protracted custody battle and we decided to avoid those horrors at all costs. Our judgment of divorce made the legal minimum of mention regarding our daughter. Instead, we made our own agreements and we either stuck with them or changed them after talking. I won't try and tell anyone the agreements were reached easily because many weren't, but with give and take on both our parts, we made it work.

Our motivation was simple: our daughter's future was paramount.

We chose to live a couple blocks apart. We chose to attend our daughter's school and athletic events, frequently sitting together and greeting her together after the events. Our daughter spent the time with me that she needed and the time with her mother that she needed. We chose to continue practicing law together until our daughter was graduated from college. Child support and other financial issues [college tuition, etc] were handled through mutually agreed salary adjustments.

Our daughter recently turned twenty-six. She has a good job, but much more importantly, she has a mature self concept, she is well adjusted and she enjoys an excellent relationship with not only her mother and me, but also with our respective new spouses.

In our case, the "system" worked because we were able to set personal differences aside and avoid the "system." Others can do what we did, but usually they require the assistance of skilled attorneys, counselors or mediators.

Sometimes though, when one party simply is unwilling to adhere to simple concepts of courtesy and common sense, nothing works.

Someone mentioned that he/she is unable to communicate with the ex. Such failure is a common cause of not only divorce, but of bitterness afterward. I believe the failure of communication is a CHOICE usually brought about by at least one party's emotional decision not to limit communication to the future and insisting instead on dredging up personal slights from the past that do not need to be and probably can't be resolved.

Unfortunately today's "system" is both overworked and understaffed. Perhaps in someone's rose colored mind once upon a time the "system" was intended to be the investigative tool through which the solution to each family's breakup would be determined in a fair and impartial manner. Even if such a goal ever were intended, the "system" no longer is a self-starting mechanism by which a substantially overpowered individual ["overpowered" can mean many things in this context] can compete on an even playing field.

Several people mentioned that what is needed is a complete overhaul. I ask, an overhaul of what? Not the "system." Bureaucracy never has been effective to micro-manage personal issues between two indivuduals. I believe that what needs to be changed is people's attitudes before marriages are consumated and before babies are created. That change can be brought about only by education, education and more education. Television, via its PSAs, makes a weak attempt at such a goal, but then undoes that attempt with its sitcoms and so called reality based shows.

In the end, it's two people who decide either to work together to resolve their difficulties or to fight over those difficulties. If there's a fight, there rarely is a winner, but there frequently are losers . . . our children.

Sorry if I got preachy. It's a touchy subject to me.

Well done, and well said.

 

[FallingToFly]

I you, Lucky.



That's the situation I'm in now.

I stayed home with my last child, so now I have absolutely no income (it's all his he says ), and can't afford to pay a lawyer, while he goes out and hires the best-known lawyer in town, the one that every person going through a divorce dreads to hear that their soon-to-be-ex is using.

He's dirty, he's cutthroat, and he's also expensive. I don't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting custody right now.

Yes, sweetie, you do.

Call a catering company, ask them to give you a written estimate for three meals a day for X number of people for thirty days, including service and clean-up after.

Call a laundromat and ask them for a written estimate on X number of loads a week for four weeks.

Call a cleaning service and ask for an estimate for cleaning services seven days a week for a month.

Call a local day care and ask for rates for child care for X number of hours per week (take out all hours your son would be at school/activities) for a month.

Present these estimates to the court as evidence of your contribution to the household. Speak directly and clearly to the judge and explain to him that although you spent many years in retail, you chose to stay home to provide the best possible care for your child and family, and that it was an economic decision made by the -family- not a selfish choice to stay home and eat bon-bons.

My father pulled that exact same crap with my mother when they were doing the custody thing. Those estimates not only caught the judge's attention, they made an impression. When my father attempted to bring "quality of care" into it, claiming my mother didn't actually cook, she walked in carrying food for the entire court and invited them to judge for themselves.

You don't have to play dirty- just play hard, and smart.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Yes, sweetie, you do.

Call a catering company, ask them to give you a written estimate for three meals a day for X number of people for thirty days, including service and clean-up after.

Call a laundromat and ask them for a written estimate on X number of loads a week for four weeks.

Call a cleaning service and ask for an estimate for cleaning services seven days a week for a month.

Call a local day care and ask for rates for child care for X number of hours per week (take out all hours your son would be at school/activities) for a month.

Present these estimates to the court as evidence of your contribution to the household. Speak directly and clearly to the judge and explain to him that although you spent many years in retail, you chose to stay home to provide the best possible care for your child and family, and that it was an economic decision made by the -family- not a selfish choice to stay home and eat bon-bons.

My father pulled that exact same crap with my mother when they were doing the custody thing. Those estimates not only caught the judge's attention, they made an impression. When my father attempted to bring "quality of care" into it, claiming my mother didn't actually cook, she walked in carrying food for the entire court and invited them to judge for themselves.

You don't have to play dirty- just play hard, and smart.

In this state none of that would matter - they use a formula based on the husbands income based on recent tax returns.

The reality is, once you put your hopes in this system, you're fucked. It's 'one size fits none' protocols guarantee non-optimum outcomes, and given the realities of the mission it's been tasked with, the system can't even be blamed. Jakebarnes06's post above describes the only way to "beat it," and that is to not really need it in the first place. Which is kind of a catch-22.

Pay heed too this thread and take its lessons to heart, you young women and men just starting out in life! The decisions you make today can have dire consequences tomorrow and ruin your life. Beware! Be not frivolous, and think not, "It can't happen to us - we're in loooove."

 

[SensualCealy]

Yes, sweetie, you do.

Call a catering company, ask them to give you a written estimate for three meals a day for X number of people for thirty days, including service and clean-up after.

Call a laundromat and ask them for a written estimate on X number of loads a week for four weeks.

Call a cleaning service and ask for an estimate for cleaning services seven days a week for a month.

Call a local day care and ask for rates for child care for X number of hours per week (take out all hours your son would be at school/activities) for a month.

Present these estimates to the court as evidence of your contribution to the household. Speak directly and clearly to the judge and explain to him that although you spent many years in retail, you chose to stay home to provide the best possible care for your child and family, and that it was an economic decision made by the -family- not a selfish choice to stay home and eat bon-bons.

My father pulled that exact same crap with my mother when they were doing the custody thing. Those estimates not only caught the judge's attention, they made an impression. When my father attempted to bring "quality of care" into it, claiming my mother didn't actually cook, she walked in carrying food for the entire court and invited them to judge for themselves.

You don't have to play dirty- just play hard, and smart.

Dont forget to mention that it was a mutual decision for you to stay home and raise the kids. Tally up what you would have made working and request that amount in the settlement.
Up here Ive heard in the last few years women have been getting sizable settlements for staying home and raising the children keeping them out of government run daycare.
C

 

[Weird Harold]

That's the way mine was supposed to work. (With a visitation schedule that was a little more complicated.) Instead, when we discovered that the state wouldn't allow the divorce without child support, he had a hand in lodging complaints with CPS. [/B]

I didn't have a problem with child support, I had a problem with Alimony.

Our "visitation schedule" was that there was NO schedule except for "24 hours notice" because I was in themilitary and unable to predict when I would be able to visit on any sort of schedule.

Essentially my divorce followed bsically the same pattern as Jake's:

Our judgment of divorce made the legal minimum of mention regarding our daughter. Instead, we made our own agreements and we either stuck with them or changed them after talking. I won't try and tell anyone the agreements were reached easily because many weren't, but with give and take on both our parts, we made it work.

Our motivation was simple: our daughter's future was paramount.

 

[bearlee]

Well done, and well said.

Of course it was-remember, he's in my corner on this one