Copyright question

[Scrubber]

I hope you won't mind my asking you seasoned authors a question.

I'm writing a story; it's for my own pleasure but I may at some point submit it.

My question is; what should one do about quoting other people's work in a story?

Suppose, for example, the man recites a poem for his lady love and that poem is not out of copyright. It would rather ruin the mood for him to announce "Now then darling, let me recite you a poem. It's called 'Crossing the Bar' by Alfred Lord Tennyson...." (Actually that poem would dampen any mood, but I'm sure you get the point.)

Do you have to attribute it somehow? If so, any tips on how?

 

[TinyBeth]

I am pretty sure it is ok to quote a couple lines in passing as long as you attribute them at the front of the story. To put more than a couple of lines of something currently in copyright I believe you need permission from the copyright holder. Which is too bad because I would love to quote more than a couple lines of a particular song in the story I am currently writing.

 

[Brandie69]

You could use just part of the poem and leave the rest to the imagination. So, like:

**
He knelt and stroked her calloused foot in his hand. "Oh freddled gruntbuggly, thy micturations are to me," he began, and she smiled down at him as he recited the Vogon poem.

Just as she was about to gnaw her own leg off, he came to the end. "Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!"
**

I would then give credit to the original poet in a note at the end (or at the beginning, but I think I'd prefer it at the end).

(Edited to give credit to Douglas Adams for his lyrical Vogon verse.)

 

[Bramblethorn]

I hope you won't mind my asking you seasoned authors a question.

I'm writing a story; it's for my own pleasure but I may at some point submit it.

My question is; what should one do about quoting other people's work in a story?

Suppose, for example, the man recites a poem for his lady love and that poem is not out of copyright. It would rather ruin the mood for him to announce "Now then darling, let me recite you a poem. It's called 'Crossing the Bar' by Alfred Lord Tennyson...." (Actually that poem would dampen any mood, but I'm sure you get the point.)

Do you have to attribute it somehow? If so, any tips on how?

There's no cut-and-dried answer on how much you can use (if anybody tells you otherwise, ask for their sources!) Evaluating 'fair use' comes down to a balance between several different considerations.

But as long as you're not quoting more than a small portion of the poem, and you're not relying overly on that poem for impact, it'd probably be okay. If I'm excerpting somebody else's work and it would disrupt the flow of the story to attribute it where it appears, I'd include attribution in a note at the end; it seems only polite.

 

[TinyBeth]

There's no cut-and-dried answer on how much you can use (if anybody tells you otherwise, ask for their sources!) Evaluating 'fair use' comes down to a balance between several different considerations.

But as long as you're not quoting more than a small portion of the poem, and you're not relying overly on that poem for impact, it'd probably be okay. If I'm excerpting somebody else's work and it would disrupt the flow of the story to attribute it where it appears, I'd include attribution in a note at the end; it seems only polite.

Exactly. I am not sure what the amount is that falls under "fair use." But I wouldn't use more than a single verse or chorus of a song if for no other reason than, as Bramblethorn said, to not overly rely on it for impact.

 

[PennLady]

I hope you won't mind my asking you seasoned authors a question.

I'm writing a story; it's for my own pleasure but I may at some point submit it.

My question is; what should one do about quoting other people's work in a story?

Suppose, for example, the man recites a poem for his lady love and that poem is not out of copyright. It would rather ruin the mood for him to announce "Now then darling, let me recite you a poem. It's called 'Crossing the Bar' by Alfred Lord Tennyson...." (Actually that poem would dampen any mood, but I'm sure you get the point.)

Do you have to attribute it somehow? If so, any tips on how?

I think -- and please correct me if I'm wrong -- that if you were publishing "for real," you'd need permission to quote* the poem/song/whatever, or you'd be in trouble. There was recently a thread about this and I posted some links to info about copyright law. I've heard it tossed around that you can quote two lines, or 25%, or whatever, but I don't know that's true.

Personally I avoid this by not quoting anything. I'm lazy.

However, I also think to some extent the rules are bent/stretched/ignored on sites like this. I've seen stories quoting whole songs throughout, and lines quoted here and there, and heard of no ill effects. But I'm stressing that this is hearsay and just what I've gathered from reading stories and forums.

Attribution is probably a good thing to have, but it's not the same as permission.

*Edited sentence.

 

[Brandie69]

The idea of "fair use" in copyright law is a serious mess. As others have already suggested in this thread, there are no easy rules, no bright lines, no safe harbors. The test that the courts would apply if a suit were filed "balances" four factors in an effort to decide whether any particular amount of copying is "fair."

You simply can not know in advance what is fair and what isn't.

Now, that being said, the chances are quite good that, on a free site like this, a reasonable amount of quotation, done in good faith and with proper attribution isn't going to attract the attention of a copyright owner.

But there's only one way anyone can ever be 100% sure, and that's to simply avoid it entirely.

 

[Handley_Page]

To be blunt, you have to obtain permission from the holder of the copyright before publication.
However,
A couple of lines is fine provided that proper attribution is given.

 

[PennLady]

Here is a link I found before on copyright. I'm not saying they are the final word but they are a place to start.

http://www.writing-world.com/rights/fair.shtml

And there was a whole thread about this general question a while ago.

Here's the thread: http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=826967

Here's a post of mine with more copyright info links:
http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=41953066&postcount=24

 

[PennLady]

I found this page about fair use at the US Copyright office: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

It says, in part:

The distinction between what is fair use and what is infringement in a particular case will not always be clear or easily defined. There is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission. Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not substitute for obtaining permission.

(bold emphasis mine)

The issue in this thread, as I see it, is that attribution is not the same as permission. If you want to quote a song or poem or something else that is not in the public domain, I doubt anyone will go after you on a site like this for it. Still, while attributing it to the correct source is perhaps good etiquette, it doesn't solve the problem that you did not obtain permission to use it.

 

[sr71plt]

Fair Use is actually for libraries and teaching situations, not creative writing.

To push what Brambleton posted, there is no guarantee that you can use any section of a poem without permission that can identify it to a previously written work that isn't in the public domain. Publishers have, as others here have pointed out, settled on two lines total of a poem of at least eight lines as the edge of they will accept liability for in what they publish. I suppose what you have to take into account when you are posting without a publisher is that whatever you post of a poem is your full risk--but, for guidance, publishers accept two lines--with full attribution.

 

[PennLady]

Fair Use is actually for libraries and teaching situations, not creative writing.

To push what Brambleton posted, there is no guarantee that you can use any section of a poem without permission that can identify it to a previously written work that isn't in the public domain. Publishers have, as others here have pointed out, settled on two lines total of a poem of at least eight lines as the edge of they will accept liability for in what they publish. I suppose what you have to take into account when you are posting without a publisher is that whatever you post of a poem is your full risk--but, for guidance, publishers accept two lines--with full attribution.

Thanks. Still, I think the ultimate point is that aside from the two lines, the author needs permission; attribution isn't enough. Although I also still think that on a site like this, it's unlikely anyone will get chased down. Unlikely, not impossible.

 

[sr71plt]

Thanks. Still, I think the ultimate point is that aside from the two lines, the author needs permission; attribution isn't enough. Although I also still think that on a site like this, it's unlikely anyone will get chased down. Unlikely, not impossible.

Right, it's highly unlikely that anyone is going to get sued for use on Literotica. The plaintive has to prove monitary damages to have any right satisfaction for the effort given, which isn't likely on material on a free-use site. This, of course, doesn't make doing it either legal or ethical.

It also seems that folks posting here often seem to think that the site owners know about the ins and outs of copyright and will either take on the risk (which they don't--both the writer and publisher are equally culpable) or will help guide the writer. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be true. The site owners seem to be as clueless about their resposibilities under the copyright laws as anyone else here is.

 

[Brandie69]

It would appear that the owners of lit.com are reasonably well informed about copyright law: http://www.literotica.com/support/2257_info.shtml

From what I understand about modern copyright law involving the Internet, an interactive site like this doesn't have to worry about itself becoming liable for copyright infringements posted by its users so long as it follows through when it receives a DMCA notice.

 

[nomoretears00]

Hmm, interesting. I had a story up here at Lit that had a few lines from a song. I had no problems. But... a friend of mine, WickedWendDru, got rejected when she went over a few lines.

Now, having said that, the story I had here has since been removed and is under contract with a publisher. I'm willing to bet when the story hits the editing stage I'm going to be told to removed those lines. I just have a feeling, lol.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Hmm, interesting. I had a story up here at Lit that had a few lines from a song. I had no problems. But... a friend of mine, WickedWendDru, got rejected when she went over a few lines.

Now, having said that, the story I had here has since been removed and is under contract with a publisher. I'm willing to bet when the story hits the editing stage I'm going to be told to removed those lines. I just have a feeling, lol.

Let us know how that comes out - I'd be interested to hear the outcome, since I may yet have to rewrite some of my stuff for similar reasons.

 

[nomoretears00]

Let us know how that comes out - I'd be interested to hear the outcome, since I may yet have to rewrite some of my stuff for similar reasons.

It might be as early as October as far as editing. The release date is Jan/Feb right now. But I'll let ya know. I'm rather interested to see what they do with it myself lol.

 

[estragon]

See 17USC§107 (if you're talking about US copyright law).

"Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors."

In short, beware. It all depends.

 

[Brandie69]

See 17USC§107 (if you're talking about US copyright law).

"Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors."

In short, beware. It all depends.

Pray that they never make the speed limit on your route to work rest on a rule like this. If they do?

Take a bus.

 

[estragon]

The problem is that there are endless variations. It's possible that a few words are the heart and soul of a copyrighted work; I remember there was a case where 400 or so words taken from a 400-page book was held to be an infringement. I think it was someone's memoirs.

And even on a free site like Lit, if someone lifted someone else's story without permission, the liftee could argue that the value of the copyright was diminished. Might not win, but might get into the ballpark with the argument.

In short, you can't be certain.

 

[TamLin01]

Although given that there are several thousand years worth of written works that no one owns a copyright on, unless there is a particularly pressing reason to be attached to one specific modern selection, you might just save yourself the headache and quote something pre-1930s. Your example of Tennyson, for instance, would get you in no legal trouble at all.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You could use just part of the poem and leave the rest to the imagination. So, like:

**
He knelt and stroked her calloused foot in his hand. "Oh freddled gruntbuggly, thy micturations are to me," he began, and she smiled down at him as he recited the Vogon poem.

Just as she was about to gnaw her own leg off, he came to the end. "Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!"
**

I would then give credit to the original poet in a note at the end (or at the beginning, but I think I'd prefer it at the end).

Same here, and I'll tell you-- if I come upon serious poetry happening in the middle of a sex story, I'm probly going to skip over it and get back to the bow-chica-chica-bow.

 

[Scrubber]

^LOL. This amused me, being someone who found the juicy bits in Fifty Shades so tedious that in the end I skipped them to get on with the story!

Thanks everyone for your input. Much appreciated, even if not what I was hoping to hear.

 

[sun_sea_sky]

Suppose, for example, the man recites a poem for his lady love and that poem is not out of copyright. ... If so, any tips on how?

Absolutely.

John sat at Mary's feet and recited a poem so beautiful it brought tears to her eyes. Her hand dropped onto his shoulder. "That was the most moving poem I ever heard," she whispered.

 

[Bramblethorn]

John sat at Mary's feet and recited a poem so beautiful it brought tears to her eyes. Her hand dropped onto his shoulder. "That was the most moving poem I ever heard," she whispered.

It avoids the copyright problem, but I'd be muttering "show don't tell" at that point - even if you can't quote it, worth at least being a bit descriptive of how it's beautiful.