Control vs. Authority

[rekane]

I had a thought about control compared to authority while reading another thread.
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?p=38133843#post38133843

You can try to control without having authority by putting people down and attempting to bend them to your will.

Or you can use your authority to control a situation and build people up.

Not new or original, I'm sure.
I think it is worth discussing, however.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Could also be: wanting control versus accepting responsibility
and also:

The dominant that puts up a high value on the skills of dominance will have a better submissive than the one that doesn't value the gift of submission.

 

[rekane]

Could also be: wanting control versus accepting responsibility
and also:

The dominant that puts up a high value on the skills of dominance will have a better submissive than the one that doesn't value the gift of submission.

And you hit the nail on the head.

I will try not to bore, but a previous alleged dom refused to accept his dom responsibility and did not value my submission.

I kept spinning madly out of control to please him, to no avail.
I finally walked away.

When I did, I kept wondering why my submission wasn't good enough. A good friend told me "A Ferrari is a superb machine. A Ferrari driven by a 16 year old is still a Ferrari. It is still superb. You are superb."

In my opinion, controlling by criticism or withholding is weak and not a sign of dominance or authority.

 

[cfuhrer]

My innitial response to this was very basic (and probably simplistic):

Control is asserted
Authority is recognized

Personally I would rather have authority (gifted by an other) than control (imposed by the self)

Which is what I think Stella was saying as well.

 

[rekane]

My innitial response to this was very basic (and probably simplistic):

Control is asserted
Authority is recognized

Personally I would rather have authority (gifted by an other) than control (imposed by the self)

Which is what I think Stella was saying as well.

Not simplistic.
Succinct.

Well put.

 

[HottieMama]

I can't fully answer this with kids running around everywhere. I'll be back tonight....

 

[Stella_Omega]

In my opinion, authority should not be gifted, but deserved.

... I kept wondering why my submission wasn't good enough. A good friend told me "A Ferrari is a superb machine. A Ferrari driven by a 16 year old is still a Ferrari. It is still superb. You are superb."

Can I use this as my quote of the day?

 

[Primalex]

I don't quite see how you can have a philosophical discussion about two completely diverging terms.

Control is a result.
Authority is a method.

"Authority" again already contains some intrinsic legitimacy, so it's not surprising that "authority" is viewed as a "good" method of getting or keeping control. If it lacks this legitimacy, you wouldn't use the term "authority" in the first place. Not to mention that in this context the legitimization usually comes from the other person in the relationship, so it's by definition consensual and therefore again "good".

What could have been an interesting discussion:
"Love vs. Authority - where does the vanilla relationship end and the D/s relationship start?"

 

[Stella_Omega]

"Love vs. Authority - where does the vanilla relationship end and the D/s relationship start?"

I am SO with you on that question. But in the successful instances it seems that the answer is that the partners express their love-- which was already there-- through the D/s dynamic, or else-- become so attuned to each other through D/s that they end up in love.

They don't call it "making love" for no reason...

Control is a result.
Authority is a method.

Or vice versa. I agree once more though, the two terms are hardly an either/or, but part of a group of concepts that work all together in the best case.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

"Arthur: (very angry) BE QUIET! I *order* you to be quiet!
Woman: "Order", eh, 'oo does 'e think 'e is?
Arthur: I am your king!
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you!
Arthur: You don't vote for kings!
Woman: Well 'ow'd you become king then?
(holy music up)
Arthur: The Lady of the Lake-- her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite,
held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by
divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. *THAT is why
I am your king!
Man: (laughingly) Listen: Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government! *Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some... farcical
aquatic ceremony!
Arthur: (yelling) BE QUIET!
Man: You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some
watery tart threw a sword at you!!
Arthur: (coming forward and grabbing the man) Shut *UP*!
Man: I mean, if I went 'round, saying I was an emperor, just because some
moistened bink had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
Arthur: (throwing the man around) Shut up, will you, SHUT UP!
Man: Aha! *Now we see the violence inherent in the system!
Arthur: SHUT UP!
Man: (yelling to all the other workers) Come and see the violence inherent
in the system! HELP, HELP, I'M BEING REPRESSED!
Arthur: (letting go and walking away) *Bloody PEASANT!
Man: Oh, what a giveaway! *Did'j'hear that, did'j'hear that, eh? *That's
what I'm on about! *Did you see 'im repressing me? *You saw it,
didn't you?!"






This thread made me think of Arthur, and Dennis.

Of course, despite Dennis' assertions, authority can come from a farcical aquatic ceremony, or genes, or finding a golden tablet under a rock in upstate New York. Authority just requires that both parties agree that that is where it comes from, and on the contract needed to perpetuate it.

Otherwise, control without authority comes in, and control doesn't have the best track record for longevity or creativity.

Hmmm...and a good way to erode authority is not to be responsive to the needs of the governed, be the governed a people, a congregation, a workforce or a sub....in other words, to be a dick.

 

[jdsgirl]

What a relevant discussion at this time in my life! I am 18 years into an abusive vanilla relationship (12 yrs married) and am now trying to get out - soon, soon. He is immature, not in control of his own emotions, verbally, emotionally and financially abusive, narcissistic, controlling, entitled, etc. This is NOT a man who is capable of leading a relationship, whether it be vanilla or otherwise.
I didn't recognize/embrace my submissive nature until just a couple of months ago. I am in a wonderfully healthy (though long-distance) relationship with someone else now, and I can CLEARLY see what leadership is all about. JD is sweet, confident, in control of himself, greatly invested in my well-being, sees my submission as a beautiful thing, and I trust him completely to lead. This is a relationship that I would call "vanilla with a D/s twist." We know we are dominant and submissive, but we don't label our relationship as anything in particular.
Bottom line: if you're a submissive woman, like I am (not just about sex, but truly submissive by nature) do NOT hand the reigns over to a man who's not cut out for it! To me, submission and Dominance can make a beautiful relationship, but it all has to be handled by whole, healthy people in order to achieve happiness and love.

 

[Bandit58]

What a relevant discussion at this time in my life! I am 18 years into an abusive vanilla relationship (12 yrs married) and am now trying to get out - soon, soon. He is immature, not in control of his own emotions, verbally, emotionally and financially abusive, narcissistic, controlling, entitled, etc. This is NOT a man who is capable of leading a relationship, whether it be vanilla or otherwise.
I didn't recognize/embrace my submissive nature until just a couple of months ago. I am in a wonderfully healthy (though long-distance) relationship with someone else now, and I can CLEARLY see what leadership is all about. JD is sweet, confident, in control of himself, greatly invested in my well-being, sees my submission as a beautiful thing, and I trust him completely to lead. This is a relationship that I would call "vanilla with a D/s twist." We know we are dominant and submissive, but we don't label our relationship as anything in particular.
Bottom line: if you're a submissive woman, like I am (not just about sex, but truly submissive by nature) do NOT hand the reigns over to a man who's not cut out for it! To me, submission and Dominance can make a beautiful relationship, but it all has to be handled by whole, healthy people in order to achieve happiness and love.

You just described my ex husband to a T. He was controlling, but he did it in a manipulative emotionally abusive way.

Just a small word of caution: Your Dom may be wonderful and your relationship may be great, but YOU will be emotionally vulnerable from your marriage. I hope that you will take time out to heal before you invest in a new relationship. Voice of experience talking here - I was deeply hurt by the man I developed an online relationship with a few weeks after I left my ex. We did meet a handful of times (it was not D/s) so it wasn't only online. However he was a serial cheater and made me all kinds of promises he either could not or would not keep.

Back on topic: Sir does not need to control me. After 7 1/2 years together I can anticipate His needs pretty well and I just do what's expected of me Being controlled in the bedroom is fun however

 

[M1ch3ll3o0o]

My innitial response to this was very basic (and probably simplistic):

Control is asserted
Authority is recognized

Personally I would rather have authority (gifted by an other) than control (imposed by the self)

Totally agree with this distinction

The idea of someone having control over me turns me on more but I would certainly feel more comfortable in a long term relationship if I have given that person authority over my actions.

 

[rekane]

In my opinion, authority should not be gifted, but deserved.

Can I use this as my quote of the day?

Feel free. It is a quote worth repeating and sharing.

"Arthur: (very angry) BE QUIET! I *order* you to be quiet!
Woman: "Order", eh, 'oo does 'e think 'e is?
Arthur: I am your king!
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you!
Arthur: You don't vote for kings!
Woman: Well 'ow'd you become king then?
(holy music up)
Arthur: The Lady of the Lake-- her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite,
held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by
divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. *THAT is why
I am your king!
Man: (laughingly) Listen: Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government! *Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some... farcical
aquatic ceremony!
Arthur: (yelling) BE QUIET!
Man: You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some
watery tart threw a sword at you!!
Arthur: (coming forward and grabbing the man) Shut *UP*!
Man: I mean, if I went 'round, saying I was an emperor, just because some
moistened bink had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
Arthur: (throwing the man around) Shut up, will you, SHUT UP!
Man: Aha! *Now we see the violence inherent in the system!
Arthur: SHUT UP!
Man: (yelling to all the other workers) Come and see the violence inherent
in the system! HELP, HELP, I'M BEING REPRESSED!
Arthur: (letting go and walking away) *Bloody PEASANT!
Man: Oh, what a giveaway! *Did'j'hear that, did'j'hear that, eh? *That's
what I'm on about! *Did you see 'im repressing me? *You saw it,
didn't you?!"






This thread made me think of Arthur, and Dennis.

Of course, despite Dennis' assertions, authority can come from a farcical aquatic ceremony, or genes, or finding a golden tablet under a rock in upstate New York. Authority just requires that both parties agree that that is where it comes from, and on the contract needed to perpetuate it.

Otherwise, control without authority comes in, and control doesn't have the best track record for longevity or creativity.

Hmmm...and a good way to erode authority is not to be responsive to the needs of the governed, be the governed a people, a congregation, a workforce or a sub....in other words, to be a dick.

But, DGE, I thought we were an autonomous collective.
*wink*

 

[jdsgirl]

You just described my ex husband to a T. He was controlling, but he did it in a manipulative emotionally abusive way.

Just a small word of caution: Your Dom may be wonderful and your relationship may be great, but YOU will be emotionally vulnerable from your marriage. I hope that you will take time out to heal before you invest in a new relationship. Voice of experience talking here - I was deeply hurt by the man I developed an online relationship with a few weeks after I left my ex. We did meet a handful of times (it was not D/s) so it wasn't only online. However he was a serial cheater and made me all kinds of promises he either could not or would not keep.

Back on topic: Sir does not need to control me. After 7 1/2 years together I can anticipate His needs pretty well and I just do what's expected of me Being controlled in the bedroom is fun however

Thanks for your thoughts and kind words of concern. A little more info: JD isn't my Dom - I mean, he has a dominant personality, but neither of has had any onvolvement in the BDSM lifestyle or anything. We just happen to fit well together in every way. I prefer to follow, and he's happy to lead, and in the bedroom, the dynamic is more pronounced and it's super hot. And, what I didn't include in my little story is the important fact that JD and I were together 18 years ago in college - he was my first, actually! So we knew each other way back when. We were both amazed that our crazy-intense chemistry from years ago was still there - or re-ignited, I should say. My love left my marriage completely about 4 years ago, and I thought I'd just try to stick it out and wait till the kids got older. Then last fall I had a couple of epiphanies that made me realize waiting that long is pointless and unhealthy. Then JD and I started talking. Now we've been involved for 10 months. I've been going to therapy for about 7 months, and I feel like I have my head on straight. I knew I needed out before JD and I reconnected, and I wasn't looking to start something when we did, but the feelings hit me like a truck. And, to be clear, I was never an abused woman who felt she deserved it. I always knew the treatment was wrong, I just always hoped it would change. I've grown so much in the last year. The road ahead of me and my kids is going to be rough, for sure, though. I'm not looking forward to hurting amybody or turning lives upside down.

 

[rekane]

Primalex -
In this particular instance, perhaps I was playing a little too fast and loose with my definitions of the words for your liking.

I was thinking of control as an imposed authority over someone and authority more as power to command.

Generally speaking, I think my meaning was clear.

Feel free to supplant "control" or "authority" with any linguistic form you wish.

 

[rekane]

Jdsgirl & Bandit - your exchange is exactly what I wish I would have seen a year ago when I discovered my submissive self.

Thank you both for your input.

Bandit, your relationship gives hope.
Jdsgirl, I know it will be tough. I wish you all good things in the days, years to come.

 

[jdsgirl]

Thank YOU, for the valid thread and for the kind words.

 

[Lilac_Sky]

What a relevant discussion at this time in my life! I am 18 years into an abusive vanilla relationship (12 yrs married) and am now trying to get out - soon, soon. He is immature, not in control of his own emotions, verbally, emotionally and financially abusive, narcissistic, controlling, entitled, etc. This is NOT a man who is capable of leading a relationship, whether it be vanilla or otherwise.
I didn't recognize/embrace my submissive nature until just a couple of months ago. I am in a wonderfully healthy (though long-distance) relationship with someone else now, and I can CLEARLY see what leadership is all about. JD is sweet, confident, in control of himself, greatly invested in my well-being, sees my submission as a beautiful thing, and I trust him completely to lead. This is a relationship that I would call "vanilla with a D/s twist." We know we are dominant and submissive, but we don't label our relationship as anything in particular.
Bottom line: if you're a submissive woman, like I am (not just about sex, but truly submissive by nature) do NOT hand the reigns over to a man who's not cut out for it! To me, submission and Dominance can make a beautiful relationship, but it all has to be handled by whole, healthy people in order to achieve happiness and love.

You just described my ex husband to a T. He was controlling, but he did it in a manipulative emotionally abusive way.

Just a small word of caution: Your Dom may be wonderful and your relationship may be great, but YOU will be emotionally vulnerable from your marriage. I hope that you will take time out to heal before you invest in a new relationship. Voice of experience talking here - I was deeply hurt by the man I developed an online relationship with a few weeks after I left my ex. We did meet a handful of times (it was not D/s) so it wasn't only online. However he was a serial cheater and made me all kinds of promises he either could not or would not keep.

Back on topic: Sir does not need to control me. After 7 1/2 years together I can anticipate His needs pretty well and I just do what's expected of me Being controlled in the bedroom is fun however

*raises hand* Count me among the club .... and bolded portion of jdsgirl's post is my new soap box ... i tried to ignore my submissiveness and ended up with an emotionally abusive man because i didn't understand myself and what i needed ... thankfully out of that relationship.

Back to the topic of the thread and my own reflections.

I see authority as a "status" based on someone's position. I see control as an action and behavior. I am a teacher. As such, I am the authority in my classroom. I have control of my students as a result of the mutual respect I build with my students. and my students listen to me and behave appropriately. There are other teachers I know who are the "authority" because they are the adult in the room. But they have no control. Usually they do not know how to "lead" others and do not have the strength of character and confidence to establish respectful control. A friend of mine who has been a substitute assistant (in a middle school) is not seen as an "authority" over students ... but she always has complete control of students because of the strength and confidence in her presence. A bit different scenario than a D/s relationship but it was the comparison that came to me.