Constructive Criticism?

[Hypoxia]

My largest volume of constructive criticism arrived because I asked for it. I left Substitute Pussy unresolved, gave a list of possible consequences, and ask readers to respond. They continue to respond two years later. A few didn't like it but most had good suggestions. Maybe someday I'll heed them.

 

[Paul_Chance]

I like constructive criticism and when it comes from a writer/editor who knows how to do it, it's always welcome.

Like some of the posters above me - a lot of times the criticism comes from a place of "write more like me" or "write what I want to read". Those ones I read (there may be a nugget buried in there), but tend to disregard.

For me, a lot depends on what I am writing. If I am writing something largely for my own pleasure, then I just write what I want.

When I am writing professionally (non-fiction, technical works) I always listen to the beta-readers and the editors and take their advice to heart as they're coming from a place where their focus is on improving the piece of work for commercial consumption/better sales and marketing. Since there, it is all about the Benjamin's we're all sharing a common motivation and a common goal.

 

[Kantarii]

I like constructive criticism and when it comes from a writer/editor who knows how to do it, it's always welcome.

Like some of the posters above me - a lot of times the criticism comes from a place of "write more like me" or "write what I want to read". Those ones I read (there may be a nugget buried in there), but tend to disregard.

For me, a lot depends on what I am writing. If I am writing something largely for my own pleasure, then I just write what I want.

When I am writing professionally (non-fiction, technical works) I always listen to the beta-readers and the editors and take their advice to heart as they're coming from a place where their focus is on improving the piece of work for commercial consumption/better sales and marketing. Since there, it is all about the Benjamin's we're all sharing a common motivation and a common goal.

Very well said Kant

 

[TxRad]

constructive criticism.

Isn't that one of those oxymoron thingies?

 

[GoldenCojones]

I love it when a writer or a reader gives constructive criticism, but I don't, haven't and won't put up with bullying. My very first experience with an Editor after I reincarnated myself as GoldenCojones went very poorly. The "Editor" couldn't write worth shit, but insisted on rewriting my story, injecting a ton of misspellings and gross grammatical errors (such as uncapitalized sentences and missing periods) as well as a slew of bullying remarks like "Have you ever even had sex with a woman?" and "You must be the stupidest fuck to ever live."

So I dumped him and did not take any of his advice. He still one bombs and leaves trollish comments on every one of my stories that posts, but the story I sent to him, and rejected all of his editing on, is one of my highest scoring stories.

Conversely, the second time I used an editor as GC was wonderful. The lady who edited for me was spot on in all her advice, knew what she was talking about, and knew how to present it as truly constructive criticism. That was on my story "May." There was one piece of advice she gave me that I chose to ignore, but she was right. The story went into erotic couplings and did not do as well as I would have liked because I didn't take that one piece of advice. However, I don't regret my decision because IMHO you can't kill all your darlings. Some of them are what makes the story yours.

 

[TxRad]

I love it when a writer or a reader gives constructive criticism, but I don't, haven't and won't put up with bullying. My very first experience with an Editor after I reincarnated myself as GoldenCojones went very poorly. The "Editor" couldn't write worth shit, but insisted on rewriting my story, injecting a ton of misspellings and gross grammatical errors (such as uncapitalized sentences and missing periods) as well as a slew of bullying remarks like "Have you ever even had sex with a woman?" and "You must be the stupidest fuck to ever live."

So I dumped him and did not take any of his advice. He still one bombs and leaves trollish comments on every one of my stories that posts, but the story I sent to him, and rejected all of his editing on, is one of my highest scoring stories.

Conversely, the second time I used an editor as GC was wonderful. The lady who edited for me was spot on in all her advice, knew what she was talking about, and knew how to present it as truly constructive criticism. That was on my story "May." There was one piece of advice she gave me that I chose to ignore, but she was right. The story went into erotic couplings and did not do as well as I would have liked because I didn't take that one piece of advice. However, I don't regret my decision because IMHO you can't kill all your darlings. Some of them are what makes the story yours.

I was very lucky and unlucky at the same time early in my Lit writing. I had two wonderful ladies volunteered to do the dirty work and back then it was a dirty job. The first was a retired professional editor from a major publishing house. She was hard on me and I learned a lot. Then she decided to try her hand at writing and I haven't seen her since.

The second was a good editor and a very smart person. She cleaned up my mess and I learned from her. She went and died on me, I'm sorry to say. Lit lost a beautiful person and I lost a very good friend.

I have a retired school teacher that edits the smut I sell. It took a little work on both our parts to get our acts together. At first i spent a lot of time explaining why her perfect English didn't work in fiction and she spent a lot of time hitting me over the head with broken rules.

My mainstream editor is a sweetheart with a bucket of red ink and a backhand my dad would have been proud of. She keeps me between the ditches of all the rules but not on the straight and narrow. That may not sound right but it works.

A good editor is a joy to work with even when they bruise your ego among other things.

 

[Kantarii]

constructive criticism.

Isn't that one of those oxymoron thingies?

Kinda like military intelligence and black rainbows Kant

 

[TxRad]

Kinda like military intelligence and black rainbows Kant

Black rainbows? They must only appear on the dark side of the moon.

 

[Kantarii]

Black rainbows? They must only appear on the dark side of the moon.

Hey, I get what your saying before there was a wall, there was the dark side of the moon.....welcome to the machineKant

Better run like hell( live)
https://youtu.be/lKgOe1Rl8YY

 

[Hypoxia]

Kinda like military intelligence and black rainbows Kant

[pedantic]
The older meaning of 'intelligence' is 'information'. Casting it as 'smarts' rather than 'spying' is much more recent. And black rainbows are easily seen through a #25 red filter.
[/pedantic]

Yes, much criticism can be constructive, if the critic is so inclined. But assholes ruin everything. (I'm looking at *you*, Anon.)

 

[CoyoteTales]

If the criticism comes from someone who actually likes what I wrote, and wants to improve it without completely changing the spirit of what I wanted, yes.

If the criticism comes from someone who thinks the story is a train wreck as is, AND I agree with their assessment, yes.

If the critique comes from someone I asked for an honest opinion, yes.

I found my best writing mentors that way.

One of the things I believe is that we can be too close to our own work. We write what's in our head, and we see all of the imagery, and all of the fantasy, and if we manage to land it all on the page, it ...

...becomes words to someone else. And only words.

It is when those words transform themselves into the same (or similar) pictures in someone else's mind and have the desired effect that you succeed. But it's like throwing darts at an invisible dart board, too -- you may love writing about your fetish of choice, but it'll miss the mark for someone who isn't into it.

To more or less echo other posters in this thread: 'I have to agree with the criticism to accept it.'

-CT

 

[autoplot]

Some criticize because they genuinely like the story and want it to be better. Some criticize because they want attention or because it makes them feel powerful to pick someone else's work apart. You can almost always tell the difference.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

I love it when a writer or a reader gives constructive criticism, but I don't, haven't and won't put up with bullying. My very first experience with an Editor after I reincarnated myself as GoldenCojones went very poorly. The "Editor" couldn't write worth shit, but insisted on rewriting my story, injecting a ton of misspellings and gross grammatical errors (such as uncapitalized sentences and missing periods) as well as a slew of bullying remarks like "Have you ever even had sex with a woman?" and "You must be the stupidest fuck to ever live."

So I dumped him and did not take any of his advice. He still one bombs and leaves trollish comments on every one of my stories that posts, but the story I sent to him, and rejected all of his editing on, is one of my highest scoring stories.

Conversely, the second time I used an editor as GC was wonderful. The lady who edited for me was spot on in all her advice, knew what she was talking about, and knew how to present it as truly constructive criticism. That was on my story "May." There was one piece of advice she gave me that I chose to ignore, but she was right. The story went into erotic couplings and did not do as well as I would have liked because I didn't take that one piece of advice. However, I don't regret my decision because IMHO you can't kill all your darlings. Some of them are what makes the story yours.

I looked at MAY and it brought to mind Mark Twain's thoughts about VERY.

He said, WHERE YOURE TEMPTED TO USE 'VERY' USE 'DAMN', YOUR EDITOR WILL THEN ERASE ALL THE DAMNS AND IT WILL BE AS IT SHOULD BE.

 

[TxRad]

I looked at MAY and it brought to mind Mark Twain's thoughts about VERY.

He said, WHERE YOURE TEMPTED TO USE 'VERY' USE 'DAMN', YOUR EDITOR WILL THEN ERASE ALL THE DAMNS AND IT WILL BE AS IT SHOULD BE.

It MAY be what Mark Twain said, but it is not VERY true.

 

[Tigersman]

Constructive criticism

Although I've written a story, I have not submitted it yet as I wanted to finish another story that could be considered chapter two or stand on its own. Knowing this, if I gave you constructive criticism would you blow it off or accept it?

 

[member9458]

I once had an anonymous comment give me such an awesome note on Graduation I tried to incorporate it into my update of the story. Sometimes the quality of a crit overrides the source.

 

[KayceeCharles]

I've found that constructive criticism are best delivered with a healthy dose of WHY?

On a certain other forum, when I offered my opinion, the reaction I got is generally "you don't know what you're talking about" or "that's just the way it is". When I tried to explain my opinion only increased the pushback and feedback became "STFU". It doesn't help that other forum do NOT want actual works quoted, so no examples can be given to demonstrate my point.

Don't worry, it's not here on LIT.

Obviously there are noob questions and FAQs, but some patience and an "ask-anything" section is conducive to people who wanted to expression their love of writing in general and love/sex in particular.

But back to generalities...

Constructive Advice 1) sex and romance writing want to engage more than a few senses. Readers expect more senses engaged. Smell of the musk, taste of the salty sweat, bump of the scar under the finger, and the tenseness of the muscle, hoarse but restrained grunt of passion... you get the idea. What may work for essays, or even action novels, won't work very well in romance / sex.

Constructive Advice 2) We tend to write what we know, so we tend to saturate our fictional world with details from that. But ask yourself... Does this detail actually drive the story forward or add details to the character... Or is it just... fluff?

Is it important to tell us if the character is wearing Ferragano or Converse?

Is it important to tell us if the character's car is a Mucielago or a Camry?

Is it important to tell us if the character's watch is a Timex or a Rolex?

If it doesn't seem to make a difference... LEAVE IT OUT!

 

[Kantarii]

I've found that constructive criticism are best delivered with a healthy dose of WHY?

On a certain other forum, when I offered my opinion, the reaction I got is generally "you don't know what you're talking about" or "that's just the way it is". When I tried to explain my opinion only increased the pushback and feedback became "STFU". It doesn't help that other forum do NOT want actual works quoted, so no examples can be given to demonstrate my point.

Don't worry, it's not here on LIT.

Obviously there are noob questions and FAQs, but some patience and an "ask-anything" section is conducive to people who wanted to expression their love of writing in general and love/sex in particular.

But back to generalities...

Constructive Advice 1) sex and romance writing want to engage more than a few senses. Readers expect more senses engaged. Smell of the musk, taste of the salty sweat, bump of the scar under the finger, and the tenseness of the muscle, hoarse but restrained grunt of passion... you get the idea. What may work for essays, or even action novels, won't work very well in romance / sex.

Constructive Advice 2) We tend to write what we know, so we tend to saturate our fictional world with details from that. But ask yourself... Does this detail actually drive the story forward or add details to the character... Or is it just... fluff?

Is it important to tell us if the character is wearing Ferragano or Converse?

Is it important to tell us if the character's car is a Mucielago or a Camry?

Is it important to tell us if the character's watch is a Timex or a Rolex?

If it doesn't seem to make a difference... LEAVE IT OUT!

Hey, now, I was just thinking the same things about writers that go outta the way to give dimensions to cock size and breast size. Some things should be left to the imagination of the reader. Kant

 

[autoplot]

Hey, now, I was just thinking the same things about writers that go outta the way to give dimensions to cock size and breast size. Some things should be left to the imagination of the reader. Kant

And yet I get comments demanding I detail those things if I happen to leave them out. (But I agree with you.)

 

[GoldenCojones]

And yet I get comments demanding I detail those things if I happen to leave them out. (But I agree with you.)

That is interesting. I've never included a penis length or a cup size or chest size for a woman and no one has ever asked or demanded that I do so.

I do give hints as to the size and shape of the person, but never dimensions.

 

[NotWise]

And yet I get comments demanding I detail those things if I happen to leave them out. (But I agree with you.)

I'm with GoldenCojones on this. Have you been writing like that for a while and built a following that expects you to carry on? Are you writing stories where that's important and you've left it out?

For women's breasts, I tend to describe how she might fill the man's mouth or feel in his hand or against his face. For a man's cock, I tend to describe them not at all, or in terms of how they might fill her.

No measurements. No complaints.

 

[sr71plt]

And yet I get comments demanding I detail those things if I happen to leave them out. (But I agree with you.)

Yes, which is why this doesn't come into the realm of general constructive criticism. It's just personal preference.

 

[SamScribble]

Yes, which is why this doesn't come into the realm of general constructive criticism. It's just personal preference.

I think that 99 percent - OK, 98 percent if you insist - of criticism is basically the critic's personal preference.

The way I see it, if the 'critic' wants something in particular, send me the spec (and some money) and I'll see what I can do. Otherwise, just move along - and make space for the next reader. The amount of really constructive (useful) criticism that I have received from readers over the past six or seven years I can count on the fingers of one hand - while still typing.

 

[sr71plt]

I think that 99 percent - OK, 98 percent if you insist - of criticism is basically the critic's personal preference.

The way I see it, if the 'critic' wants something in particular, send me the spec (and some money) and I'll see what I can do. Otherwise, just move along - and make space for the next reader. The amount of really constructive (useful) criticism that I have received from readers over the past six or seven years I can count on the fingers of one hand - while still typing.

Which is why I'm not wild about critique on this site, where very few have the knowledge and training to give constructive criticism. It's mostly "change your writing to please me personally," and when I point out that that is destructive, not constructive, to a writer's development and creativity, I get a lot of shit dumped on me.

"Write to please my personal preferences and quirks" is not constructive criticism.

 

[Hypoxia]

Constructive Advice 2) We tend to write what we know, so we tend to saturate our fictional world with details from that. But ask yourself... Does this detail actually drive the story forward or add details to the character... Or is it just... fluff?

Is it important to tell us if the character is wearing Ferragano or Converse?

Is it important to tell us if the character's car is a Mucielago or a Camry?

Is it important to tell us if the character's watch is a Timex or a Rolex?

If it doesn't seem to make a difference... LEAVE IT OUT!

Apparently Ian Fleming thought such details important because he often specified the brands of items James Bond wore or consumed.

A brand name conveys a flavor of the associated player. I see differences between guys wearing Ben Davis jeans and Dockers. In one story I named all the outer clothes a man donned because they so contrasted with his previous, anonymous garb -- but I only described his companion as wearing a dark business skirt-suit because her dress *was* more generic. So yes, differences deserve descriptions.

Back to constructive criticism. Comments *can* guide me to better storytelling. Sometimes I'll neglect characters or settings in an unfinished serial; a comment like, "Hey, what about XX?" reminds me to clarify them in the next chapter. Or I get stuff wrong, stuff that deserves fixing. I value such prompts.